Videogame Criticism

[Stanshall]

Absolutely adore his Demon's commentary video, my introduction to his work, so really looking forward to this in bed tonight.

[Sean]

New Matthewmatosis video. Essential watching for you Dark / Demon Souls fans!

Agree with this video entirely. Still my favorite Souls game, by a long shot.

[KSubzero1000]

I think he's a bit harsh in his criticism of the rest of the series, but Matthewmatosis does make a solid case for Demon's Souls.

I didn't realize the game was so popular around here. I feel like an outcast all of a sudden!

[James]

I think he's a bit harsh in his criticism of the rest of the series, but Matthewmatosis does make a solid case for Demon's Souls.

I didn't realize the game was so popular around here. I feel like an outcast all of a sudden!

I think quite a few of us played Demon's first, and so it might have a special place in our hearts. Not speaking for others, but I often wonder whether my attachment to Demon's is justified, and this video was a nice reminder of what I loved about it, but might have forgotten in the few years since I last fired it up.

On the criticisms, I said that "I agree with pretty much all of that." Whilst that's entirely true, I do agree with almost every one of his observations, I also don't think they all have the negative or compromising impact that he asserts (directly or by intonation).

For example, I do think the series takes a more action-oriented focus from (probably) Dark Souls II onwards, but I certainly don't think it's universally a bad thing. In my eyes, the combat focus is part of what made Bloodborne feel so wonderfully different to me.

I know the effervescent Souls fandom can sometimes generate an impression that enjoyment of these games is in ignorance of the series' failings, or its predecessors, but to me that's an equally problematic reading. Kinda sick of the backlash against the backlash against the backlash against the backlash against the genuine enjoyment of video games.

As far as I'm concerned (though again, I won't speak for the rest of the CaR team, or community) enjoyment trumps smugness every time, and I took this as an interesting critique, rather than an attempt to undermine of a set of games that I enjoy. Hopefully the response on here is equally cause for discussion and celebration, rather than any sort of dogpiling that results in anyone being ostracised. Apologies if it strayed over the line.

[KSubzero1000]

Hopefully the response on here is equally cause for discussion and celebration, rather than any sort of dogpiling that results in anyone being ostracised. Apologies if it strayed over the line.

Oh no, not at all. Don't worry.

I played Demon's Souls first as well, and while I will always have enormous respect for the risk that it took and the vision it had, I do think that it was bogged down by many needlessly opaque design decisions and I enjoy the more polished and refined sequels a lot more (except for Dark Souls 2, of course). This video does provide an interesting counterpoint to that, and I can definitely understand where he's coming from. I just think some of the criticism aimed at the later entries are a bit dismissive in tone. Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 are not just "games in which you press the roll button at the right time".

[Michiel K]

I have both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls laying around and put the most time in the second game, but I haven't really dug in deep in either, so I can't comment too much on what he states in the video. I just thought he formulated his observations and his reasoning very well.

There seems to be a tiny contradiction in his reasoning, though: if he prefers the exploration aspect to the combat, shouldn't he like Dark Souls more (and I realise I oversimplify his arguments), with its more expansive and varied terrains and environments? And yeah, I get what he says about shortcuts and the likes making more internal logical sense in Demon's Souls.

[Alex79]

Does anyone have any links for really good Dark Souls or Bloodborne videos? Like some in depth insights or lore stuff? I'm quite specifically only after DS1 and BB stuff, because I've not played DS3 yet, and am currently replaying DS2 and have managed to forget most of the latter half of that game so wouldn't really want them spoiled! I know there are hundreds of videos on YouTube but are there any that people have watched and found really interesting? Thanks

[Todinho]

Vaativydia,Epicnamebro and Davecontrollive are great channels for lore, they've done videos on all of the games but they have a bunch of them especially Dark 1

[Stanshall]

Well, I don't know if you've seen them but Matthewmatosis did two unbelievably great videos on Demon's and Dark.

Besides those, VaatiVidya is excellent at presenting the lore in digestible chunks, and EpicNameBro did a number of great lore/LP type things, which he seldom ever finished!

[KSubzero1000]

Your best bet in terms of Soulsborne YouTube videos would have to be VaatiVidya. I've watched almost all of the videos he's produced over the years, and I think that his quality output has always been really high. Fantastic channel in general, with great narration and research. Here's his 30 minute Bloodborne analysis to see if it's up your alley:


Here's a much older (and shorter) one about the differences between the two Dark Souls endings:


He has a lot more on his channel, though. Careful while browsing though, if you really want to avoid any potential spoilers on Dark Souls 2 & 3. Are there any specific characters or lore elements you'd be interested in? Are you interested in Demon's Souls as well?


If you're looking for more... academic criticism, SuperBunnyhop has made another in-depth analysis of Dark Souls:


And if you want to go the extra mile, here's Matthewmatosis' infamous 6-hours long (!) step-by-step analysis of the entire game!

[KSubzero1000]

Does anyone have any links for really good Dark Souls or Bloodborne videos?

Were any of these recommendations to your liking? Are you looking for anything more specific?

In other news, I've stumbled upon this video criticizing the heavy focus on combat and violence across the video game landscape. I think the author makes some valid points and it might be of interest to the one or the other around here.

[Alex79]

So sorry guys, I hadn't seen any of these replies at all! Thanks very much for the links, I'll be working my way though them starting tonight!

[Todinho]

youtube comedian(?) videogamedunkey talks about videogame criticism especifically reviews and how they are made, alot of good points here really good especially for those who do reviews I think:

[Michiel K]

This one ties into the Matthewmatosis video just a tad. Some interesting food for thought.



My take: I think Doom was way more of a game changer than Demon Souls or Dark Souls and even thought so back when the FPS wasn't a full fledged accepted game genre yet. The Souls games are steeped way too deep in long existing universal game mechanics, genre conventions and camera perspectives.

So I'd put it rather simple:

Dark Souls is a CRPG.

If asked to expand I'd say Dark Souls is a CRPG of the dungeon crawling variety, using real-time action commands via direct button controls.

It's only thanks to an unusually strong and stark directorial vision when it comes to its particular combination of design elements and its mechanical whole that the game plays like nothing else in the genre and has made quite the cultural impact. And because of that, it's not strange that 'clones' are popping up and that games from other genres are starting to borrow from it, like how Spelunky is not a 'Roguelike', but a platformer / platform adventure game that borrows certain design elements from Rogue.

In a similar manner, I'd say...

Devil May Cry is a beat 'em up.

Expanding on that I'd say that Devil May Cry is a weapon based beat 'em up with a 3D, independently moving camera that encourages expressive, stylish play, emphasised by a rewarding scoring system.

[Todinho]

So I'd put it rather simple:

Dark Souls is a CRPG.

If asked to expand I'd say Dark Souls is a CRPG of the dungeon crawling variety, using real-time action commands via direct button controls.

It's only thanks to an unusually strong and stark directorial vision when it comes to its particular combination of design elements and its mechanical whole that the game plays like nothing else in the genre and has made quite the cultural impact. And because of that, it's not strange that 'clones' are popping up and that games from other genres are starting to borrow from it, like how Spelunky is not a 'Roguelike', but a platformer / platform adventure game that borrows certain design elements from Rogue.

hahaha now game genres are a funny thing aint they because I would never in a million years classify Dark souls as a "CRPG" for example Dragon Age Inquisition is at the edge of what I'd consider a CRPG, games like Mass Effect 2 and Witcher are firmly on the action-RPG category to me. If you look at the games that tipified the CRPG and look at dark souls they look nothing alike,play completelly differently and their appeal is different, hell even something like Diablo is totally different from Baldur's Gate and that's why Diablo started it's own genre.

Now if soulslike merits it's won genre it's a moot point by it's success it already created, if anything else, a style of game to be emulated and much like the debate on "walking simulators" I think debating that is pointless rather I think the point of the video is really good in trying to explore what can be done in this genre and not try to rigidly follow dark souls, it's one of the reasons I like Nioh so much it borrows as much from dark souls as it does from Ninja Gaiden and other character action games. Personally I think dark souls has earned carving it's own sub-genre inside the action-RPG mainly because of the stamina system,which may sound a small contribution in comparison to the FPS, but it's a real game changer like Mathewmatosis himself has said the stamina bar is Dark souls in a way, that plus how it's progression and intricate levels are constructed are the hallmark of these games from the beginning and it's a common aspect in all so called "soulslike" games.

[Michiel K]

hahaha now game genres are a funny thing aint they because I would never in a million years classify Dark souls as a "CRPG" for example Dragon Age Inquisition is at the edge of what I'd consider a CRPG, games like Mass Effect 2 and Witcher are firmly on the action-RPG category to me. If you look at the games that tipified the CRPG and look at dark souls they look nothing alike,play completelly differently and their appeal is different, hell even something like Diablo is totally different from Baldur's Gate and that's why Diablo started it's own genre.

Now see, I even loathe to make a distinction between 'CRPGs' and 'Action RPGs'. To me they're all Computer Role Playing Games, or different video game interpretations of pen-and-paper role playing games, with some leaning more on action than others.

It's fair to say that in comparison with traditional, non-digital RPGGs, CRPGs are heavily slanted on action and combat anyway, whether they use real-time systems or not. The traditional RPG is centered around the idea of true freeform decision making and creating your own story. In many cases, combat can be avoided completely.

[Todinho]

To me at least there's a big difference between a CRPG and an Action-RPG, in traditional RPGs combat,being turn based or not,follows a set of rules in short your attacks are dictated by dice rolls and numbers so there's a big difference to missing an attack because the dice didnt favor you or because you misjudged a swing. And while computer RPGs are more slanted towards combat then their pen and paper counterparts it's important to bear in mind what the appeal of these games are and what they are trying to achieve,CRPGs try to replicate the feel of a pen and paper game it allows you to define your character and how they behave in this world, the "Role-playing" aspect is at the for front, when you talk about classic CRPGs people rarely talk about their combat system they talk about the story and how you were able to build and roleplay in a variety of different ways, for instance the original Fallout can have multiple ways to handle the final boss 3 of which dont require you to fight him, hell you can even join him if you want and get a different ending and this throught the entire game with your interaction with other characters, the game has combat but it's one of the aspects of the game not the main one and not the main appeal, and appeal is very important I mean take movies or books unlike games they are all "mechanically" the same in game terms but a drama doesnt have the same appeal as a comedy and so on.

Compare that now to Dark souls where pratically your only way to interact with the world is through combat, the entire game is structured around combat you're not gonna beat dark souls by talking Gywn to death, it's not an option. That difference in appeal is strong enough that I think it merits Diablo to have it's own genre as well, Diablo's appeal revolves entirelly around combat and loot but also dungeon exploration, which once again is an aspect of CRPGs but here they come to the forefront. What these games are going for different things to the point that If you gave me Diablo 3 and asked me to judge it solely on the merits of it as a CRPG I'd rate it very poorly and the same you'd happen if you judged Planescape based solely on dungeon crawlers like Diablo. If these difference are so big as to cause these reactions then I dont think it makes sense to call these games part of the same genre. So is dark souls appeal the same as say Witcher 2 or 3? To me at least the appeal is closer to something like Castlevania which isnt an RPG at all, so yeah game genres are funny like that it just never stops XD

[Flabyo]

Diablo is more of a roguelike than a lot of games that get called roguelike these days... heh.

(And I say that as someone that played rogue back in the day...)

[kintaris]

I think genres and classifications across all media tend to muddy the waters a bit, despite their usefulness. They are useful short-hands to give a newcomer a flavour of what a product might entail, but the problem in today's buzzword society is that once you apply a label to a product, it gets saddled with it. Particularly when you consider how people hear about new stuff now. If a game review mentions some "Souls-like" elements in a game (while also talking about the game's other characteristics), that's a useful descriptor for many people. If that same review gets posted on Twitter with "Souls-like" in the headline, it becomes a gross reduction that might put people off clicking on it at all if they didn't get on with Dark Souls.

Funnily enough I've seen a similar debate on the so-called "grimdark" subgenre of fantasy fiction. To me the idea of pigeonholing fantasy - a genre defined by it's lack of limits - into subsections based on the author's choice of tone alone is absurd. But others who only want to read the dark gritty stuff value this relatively new way to filter down the huge number of fantasy titles on the market.

In other words, genre is always going to be tricky and I take any classification - especially those headline buzzword terms - with a generous pinch of salt.

[Todinho]

So I was randomlly browsing the internet and found this article, the title is a bit hyperbolic if Im honest but still, at how consultants informed the making of Dragon age Inquisition's trans character and how their absence was probably the reason as to why Andromeda wasnt quite as successfull in that area, a pretty neat article talking about this aspect of game making which isnt really brought up alot: http://letsplayvideogames.com/2017/04/h ... quisition/