Videogame Criticism

[Todinho]

But as you said, emotions are running high and perhaps now is when publications like gamesTM feel that they need to take a stand on matters. It wasn't always so. For example, I don't seem to remember their review of Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes commenting on that utterly reprehensible moment of female objectification and outright misogyny during the closing scene, one of the most disturbing moments I've ever come across in a piece of mainstream media.

I hope that gamesTM and its peers are just as ballsy when it's not such an easy thing to do. That's the real mark of good journalism.

I dont know the context for their criticism of KCD but the scene you're refering to of Ground Zeroes is supposed to be disturbing and make you feel uncomfortable, and alot of websites took Kojima to task at the time, for the wrong reasons in my opinion, what is portrayed in that scene is something that occurs in real life in war zones(if you recall they even have a term for it in the game) and it makes sense with whats happening in the story, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

I have to say though that sometimes videogame journalists have some frankly stupid points to make regarding their personal politics and what they expect from the games they play, like remember when Witcher 3 was called racist because it didnt have any people of color in it? I think stuff like that is at best daft and at worse a veiled imperialist attitude by saying that the art coming out of your country should should reflect what I want and my context.

Like I said I dont know how KCD is dealing with women but to me there's a big difference between showing how women were treated in the middle ages(not well) and making light of that or being explotative. That being said you can write stories that show that and still have strong female characters, for example game of thrones is great at that(the books anyway)

[Todinho]

So I went in and looked at what was the problem people had with KCD and to me it seems the case of people hating the developer and bringing that to their criticism of the game no matter if it warrants it or not, I have to say regardless of your views on the devs stance I find this puritanical attitude of games media towards people very toxic and disturbing and I dont think that's condusive to making the industry better, now this game is being used as marker in a "cultural battle" between social justice and injustic warriors or whatever dumb terminology you want to use and I think that's really sad.

This game, like Witcher 3, is also suffering criticism for "being too white" and to the people making or who feel this criticism is valid I ask if they did the same type of game and set in Africa would the people screaming about it now also complain then, that there were no white people? Would Eurogamer spend 5 paragraphs talking about how there would've been some white people in Africa at the time and the fact that the game doesnt have them is a big problem?No, the oposite would happen, the people on the other side of the aisle would complain about white genocide or whatever while these media outlets would champion it as taking the medium foward and the conversation would still be about everything but the game itselt and that`s depressing.

Colin Moriarty(once again someone you dont need to see eye to eye on everything to listen to what he has to say) does into some detail here for anyone interested:

[Flabyo]

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

A review is a subjective thing and a reviewers is under no obligation to hold anything at all back if they want to write about it.

You don’t see anyone in the music press being bollocked for getting political.

One thing I’ve never understood is that people don’t think twice about avoiding reading newspapers and websites with political leanings they disagree with, but don’t consider just not reading games reviews on sites with political leanings they disagree with.

[Chopper]

What was this about? I don't play MGS games so didn't hear about it.

Spoiler: show

The woman who was being rescued, the bad guys performed an operation where they implanted a bomb into her uterus, I think, and then exploded it when she was in the escape helicopter.

[KSubzero1000]

I dont know the context for their criticism of KCD but the scene you're refering to of Ground Zeroes is supposed to be disturbing and make you feel uncomfortable, and alot of websites took Kojima to task at the time, for the wrong reasons in my opinion, what is portrayed in that scene is something that occurs in real life in war zones(if you recall they even have a term for it in the game) and it makes sense with whats happening in the story, it's not like it came out of nowhere.

Yeah, I'm with Todinho on this. Kojima has always tried to show the ugly and inhuman side of war, and this specific scene is no different. Portraying something doesn't necessarily mean endorsing it. GoodFellas does not endorse organized crime, and MGSV endorses neither child soldiers nor sexual violence. It simply shows them as horrible things that regularly occur in the warzones of this sad little real world of ours. There are more than enough other authors and directors out there who exclusively focus on the "cool" and "exciting" aspect of war. I think it's good that a few at least try to draw attention to the other aspects.

I think it's perfectly fair to call this specific scene "in bad taste" or to say "this is too far and I don't want this in my video games", but bigotry is more than just making people uncomfortable. It's about promoting a hateful worldview. And if anything, it's War which is the target of Kojima's hatred, not Women. It's not like like he made this up (for once).

And yes, Kojima has issues with his sometimes juvenile visual portrayal of female characters. But this is different and I don't agree with throwing the baby out with the bathwater like this.

Misogyny can't simply be diagnosed by combining anything female with general discomfort felt when watching / reading. Intent, nuance and context matter.

[Flabyo]

I guess it comes down to where you stand on the separation of art and artist. Everyone draws a different line there.

Also, I still think Kojima is a hack and gets far too much of a free pass for his experimental weirdness, but that’s just me

[KSubzero1000]

I'm satisfied that Kojima intentionally objectifies his female characters

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, but I'd also like to draw attention to the difference between Style and Substance. A female character being drawn in a needlessly sexualized way is often in bad taste and visually objectifying. But if that same character also happens to be written as a complex human being with her own values and motivations, strengths and weaknesses, then she is not thematically objectified. And this is where most of Kojima's female characters are located: at the crossroads between questionable style and narrative substance. The Boss is the most obvious example, but even characters like Naomi Hunter, Meryl or EVA are written as memorable and unique human beings with their own character arcs and have arguably more narrative depth than the overwhelming majority of video game protagonists.

I think it's a mistake to conflate these two separate factors and judge them as one singular entity. On the other side of the spectrum, there are plenty of films and games with one-dimensional female characters whose only purpose is to be biologically female (love interests or mothers) without any other defining traits, despite being clothed in a much more modest way. Is this somehow less objectifying and more respectful? I personally don't think so.

I don't think it's very fair to simply point at a screenshot of a MGS character and say "See? Kojima's being misogynistic again!" Optics are undoubtedly important, but they also don't tell the whole story. Is it really progressive to potentially ignore the quality of a character's writing and reduce her to an easy screenshot to argue against?

A juvenile approach to sexuality isn't inherently bigoted. Saying "Here's this really interesting character that I think will enrich my story! Oh and btw, she has tits because why not, right?" is going to make me roll my eyes a little, but I don't see any hatred in that whatsoever. And I'd much rather have that than a respectably dressed character who is kept silenced in the background. Aren't actions more important than looks?

It's like sex scenes in movies, really. Yes, most of them are creatively bankrupt and serve very little purpose other than to titillate the audience, but if the rest of the film is substantial enough, I'll gladly sit through them in order to get to the interesting parts. And I would argue that actual living actors are often being put in uncomfortable situations during conventional movie productions, something which is almost a non-issue in virtual video games.

With all that said, I'll fully admit that he has completely dropped the ball on that topic several times. I just object to sweeping judgments that devalue nuanced analysis.

he lacks the nuance of the thing he'll never be, a good storyteller.

Like with the above, I completely understand where this is coming from, but I also think it's important to not simply cherry-pick the evidence that support this claim while ignoring the rest.

Without going into too many, potentially spoilery details, MGS3 has one of the most incredible uses of color that I've ever seen being used in a story. A simple lily petal changing from white to red to white again, together with the interwoven cultural significance it holds (from the western view of white as a symbol of Purity and red as a symbol of Death, juxtaposed with the Japanese perspective of white being the color of Death and red representing the awe-inspiring Sun), in order to underline how the two contradicting interpretations of a single event would effectively impact the decades to come. All being presented within a well-edited cutscene without a single line of dialogue drawing attention to it, contrary to popular belief. If that's not nuance, what is...?

The same game also manages to subtly hint at a specific character's parentage without ever outright pointing it out, resulting in most first-time players missing out on that particular plot line and its thematic significance. I certainly did.

It also utilizes the drastically opposed nature of its two main antagonists as a way of underlining the ambiguous nature of the third part of the antagonistic triumvirate, which helps with recontextualizing the entire series' lore.

To say nothing of the game's very protagonist being hinted at being on the autism spectrum, something that most stories completely shy away from (especially action stories with a determined male protagonist in his physical prime) unless explicitly drawing attention to it.

(And let's just say there's a lot more where that came from.)

Now, I'm not saying Kojima's verbose storytelling and overindulgent editing problems aren't rightfully infamous, I just don't think it's fair to judge things at face value without bothering to dig a little deeper. He can be nuanced and subtle, but when he does, people rarely pick up on it because that's simply not what they expect.

What I'm missing is the context. I bounced off all of the post-PS1 Metal Gear games and probably don't know enough about his overall thematic goals to be able to place that scene in its proper context, however unsubtle it may be.

I'm not exactly sure how to interpret "bounced off", but in any case I'll say that it's usually a good idea to play (or read, or watch...) a work or series of works to completion before formulating criticism or putting an unfavorable label onto an author. One informed opinion, regardless of outcome, is worth more than a hundred uninformed ones.

And while it may go beyond the scope of this particular conversation, I'd like to point out that while we are all growing older and becoming more and more set in our ways, a good critique is rarely being formulated beforehand or built on preconceived notions. I say this not to have a go at anyone, but as an acknowledgment that I am very often guilty of it myself.

Has he got a great story in him like many of his celebrated compatriots? Could he ever write a female character to match those of Ozu or Mizoguchi?

As far as I'm concerned, he has done so already. MGS2 and 3 especially have made me question my worldview and things that I might have taken for granted otherwise. They've made me cheer, cry, and most importantly, think. It's just that his great stories and interesting characters also come with a lot of baggage and ballast that can understandably put some people off. They're great and powerful without being elegant. A good story doesn't automatically mean good storytelling, and vice versa.

[Todinho]

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

A review is a subjective thing and a reviewers is under no obligation to hold anything at all back if they want to write about it.

You don’t see anyone in the music press being bollocked for getting political.

One thing I’ve never understood is that people don’t think twice about avoiding reading newspapers and websites with political leanings they disagree with, but don’t consider just not reading games reviews on sites with political leanings they disagree with.

I have no problems with bringing politics into a review especially if a game warrants it by being political in nature, if you played spec ops the line and didnt bring up the war on terror and the tendency of videogames to glorify that I'd say your review wouldnt be very good.

My problem is with people having an axe to grind with the developer for whatever reason and wanting to take that out on the game, which to me seems to be at least part of the reason of the criticism the game is getting, and taking something out of the game something that the game never proposed itself to do and criticising the game for doing it.
I could write a Mario Odyssey review and devote 5 paragraphs to how the game has no story and then give it a bad score, sure that's my opinion but I dont think it makes for a good review, Mario never proposed itself to do that to me it's like judging an apple for not being an orange.

Both KCD and Witcher are made in countrys were there are pratically 0 people of color and more importantly they have no historic debt with people of color, so while representation and inclusion of POC is a big topic on countrys like the US,Brasil and the UK it's a non-issue to them, so while a game maker in the US should be thinking about POC in his game because of his society someone in Poland wouldnt give it a thought, the are making games that one way or another reflect their societies, I dont see this type of criticism in other mediums like demanding that a chinese movie have black or white actors you know that's why I find it so weird, I mean yeah you could criticize a chinese movie for it but would it be a worthwhile critique, I dont think so.

[Todinho]

On the subject of Kojima, yeah Ksubzero took the words out of my mouth I couldnt have put it better myself, I have almost nothing to add other then I have this "controversial" view that Metal Gear actually has some of the best female characters in gaming but nobody cares because they are in a bikini once, like EVA from MGS3 is constantly cited as an example of Kojima writing and objectifying women because you can stare at her boobs in cutscenes, but if you look past that I think you'll find a very strong character in fact one of the strongest in the entire series, yet people look at her and dismiss her and that upsets me to no end.

Also I highly recommend this videos for anyone that just dismisses the story in MGS(Spoilers ahoy though):

[KSubzero1000]

EVA from MGS3 is constantly cited as an example of Kojima writing and objectifying women because you can stare at her boobs in cutscenes, but if you look past that I think you'll find a very strong character in fact one of the strongest in the entire series, yet people look at her and dismiss her and that upsets me to no end.

Exactly. EVA is this really potent deconstruction of the Bond Girl archetype and I find her to be one of the series' strongest, most layered and interesting characters, which is also why I have a soft spot for MGS4's Act 3.

Not to mention that the criticism aimed at her sex appeal doesn't even make a lot of sense considering how she's a charm agent. It's not like the author superimposed leering camera angles at the last minute as a crowd-pleasing but poorly thought out detail. She is 100% aware of her own sexuality because that is part of her job first and foremost. It makes perfect sense for her to be sexually attractive, because she herself is aware of this in-universe. Please note how she's being portrayed in a much more modest fashion when undercover.

(That's a good example of what I meant when I said context matters.)


As an aside, it's also why I'm so critical of Quiet, because she on the other hand is a perfect example of a character being needlessly sexualized without it correlating with her characterization. That's just stupid fan-service, as far as I'm concerned.

[Craig]

It’s not an either or thing - MGS has some great, complex female characters and also some awful titilation for titilation’s sake which juvenile tone completely detracts from any message.

Women can and do wear revealing clothing, that’s fine. Eva’s character in MGS3 is a character who is often objectified in game, but she’s aware of this and uses this to her advantage to complete her mission. This is balanced with the Boss who still wears a fairly revealing costume, but is in complete control of the situation because she’s a badass solider.

But then you get things like MGS4, where Naomi is talking to you on codec about how your imminent death is inevitable and your very existence is a threat to everyone all the while you can make her tits jiggle using the DS4 controller.

You have the Beauty and Beast squad which after you kill them reveals them in skin tight clothes walking sexily toward you, and hey you can have a photo shoot if you want. Then after you get a ten minute monologue info dump on how it’s actually a really tragic story and they were child orphans. What’s the point? These aren’t rounded characters, they’re just a bit of T&A with a poorly delivered backstory.

It all amounts to a huge problem with tone the games struggle with straddling the line between wanting to say something important about the nature of war, technology and information while also wanting to have Dead or Alive style titilation and jokes about shitting your pants.

[KSubzero1000]

I fully agree with your point about the B&B Corps. They're one of the best examples of Kojima dropping the ball like I mentioned earlier. I think the concept is sound, but the execution is very poor.

It all amounts to a huge problem with tone the games struggle with straddling the line between wanting to say something important about the nature of war, technology and information while also wanting to have Dead or Alive style titilation and jokes about shitting your pants.

I also completely understand how it can cause too much of a dissonance for people to enjoy the rest of the story, but I'd like to point out that authors alternating between serious and crowd pleasing scenes is nothing new. Is The Matrix' examination of reality and critique of the information age devalued by its numerous action scenes? Are the (arguably) pointless and borderline voyeuristic sex scenes in Watchmen taking away from its status as one of the most relevant pieces of post-modern writing? If not, what exactly makes MGS so special in that regard? Is it just a matter of the exact seriousness / silliness ratio?

In many ways, that's what pop culture is. Introducing complex and potentially off-putting themes to a larger audience by way of attractive superficial qualities. I would argue that while MGS does have a tendency of going a bit too far in either direction, it is based on a perfectly valid and established core concept.

[Craig]

I'd say a lot of it lies in the execution. The Matrix is a good example - the action scenes are there to support the philosophy and have a visual representation of someone breaking free. They don't feel tacked on because they are integrated well.

In MGS these elements often just feel completely out of place and unnecessary. That's where the difference lies between "Eva is getting undressed and Snake is checking out her body because he's a horn dog" and "that woman you just shot a bunch of times is now posing for your pleasure, but here's a story about how she's had a tough life."

However, Kojima doesn't integrate this well a lot of times because it is just for titillation. There was the infamous quote where we would feel sorry about making fun of Quiet's skimpy costume when we found out the real reason for it, and it's some kind of bad SciFi soft porn plot that she has to wear no clothes because she breathes through her skin.

MGS isn't really that special in this regard, but this stuff gets called out in other media too. Tone is important in a story, and the juxtaposition of the heavy themes MGS wants to talk about and the goofier elements are handled pretty badly a lot of the time.

[Todinho]

Third man you dont know how happy I am that you took the time to do this deep dive into the Kojima stuff and that you gained some appreciation even if you didnt became a convert or anything, even though Im a big fan of the man and he is one of my favorite storytellers in the medium he is certainly not flawless, his stories certainly have unecessary elements and what you mentioned about him overwriting stuff is certainly true in some cases especially in earlier games, he is certainly a fan of plot dumps I dont think anyone will deny.

On the same topic was kinda of inspired by the posts here to go to youtube and watch a bunch of the cutscenes and story from metal gear and one issue that became aparent watching it all back to back is that Metal gear solid, Metal Gear Solid 2 and MGS4(the worst case) have are how the plots are structured, the ideas and the characters hold up but they way they structure the game gets pretty messy, what I mean by that are alot of moments of: "Oh this was my plan all along!" and similar twists that convolute the plot,the end point is fine but the games get pretty convoluted when they didnt need to be and I think that's one of the reasons that turn people off from actually getting to the message behind all that stuff, it's not like you cant do plot twists like that in a more "clean" manner, I think they did it in MGS3, PW and Phantom Pain(Though I feel alot of people would disagree with me on the last one XD)

The greatest problem however is not the people who bounce off but the people who mistake that convoluted stuff in front of the message with the message itself, it was partially because of people like that Kojima felt pressured to make MGS4 and anwser all the questions they wanted, it just make the entire conversation about the series poorer in my opinion. The worst part is that Kojima straight up tells us that stuff isnt important with the ending of MGS2: "Dont stress so much over words, find the meaning behind the words".

[KSubzero1000]

Third man you dont know how happy I am that you took the time to do this deep dive into the Kojima stuff and that you gained some appreciation even if you didnt became a convert or anything, even though Im a big fan of the man and he is one of my favorite storytellers in the medium he is certainly not flawless, his stories certainly have unecessary elements and what you mentioned about him overwriting stuff is certainly true in some cases especially in earlier games, he is certainly a fan of plot dumps I dont think anyone will deny.

Agreed on both counts. I'm very glad to hear that you went through the trouble of all that research and gained a new perspective on Kojima's work, ThirdMan. And Todinho is right, Kojima's storytelling methods do leave a lot to be desired and his tendency to overwrite can be grating at times. I think it's important to not hype him up as some kind of flawless author, as much as I love him.

Seriously, good on you for being open-minded and willing to reexamine things like that. Thumbs up from me!

The greatest problem however is not the people who bounce off but the people who mistake that convoluted stuff in front of the message with the message itself, it was partially because of people like that Kojima felt pressured to make MGS4 and anwser all the questions they wanted, it just make the entire conversation about the series poorer in my opinion. The worst part is that Kojima straight up tells us that stuff isnt important with the ending of MGS2: "Dont stress so much over words, find the meaning behind the words".

+1

Kojima is on the verge of releasing what could be his purest ever statement of intent, and it will come at a time when my burning passion in life is videogames! What a horrible confluence of factors.

Why horrible? Now you'll be approaching Death Stranding like the rest of us - curious and with a better understanding of his style and what to expect. That's great! And this time around, there won't be any 30+ years of crusty lore weighing the whole thing down! ^^

Oh, and if you're not sick of MGS videos by now, somehow haven't come across this one already, and would like to know more about The Boss, I can wholeheartedly recommend this particular video. One of the best pieces of MGS fan content out there and a perfect introduction / analysis for fans and non-fans alike:

[Michiel K]

Just want to say I've been reading this discussion with great interest. Kudos to all involved.

[Alex79]

This isn't really related to the current discussion, but it is MGS related, and I thought some of you might find it an interesting read. I certainly did.

https://www.gamesradar.com/how-metal-ge ... veillance/

[KSubzero1000]

Good article, thanks for sharing.

The MGS games, 2 especially, have always had some near-prophetic potent political commentary interspersed throughout their plots. I'm actually quite surprised people find it surprising! Everything old is new again, I suppose...

Hell, Metal Gear Rising has a MAGA-spouting, war-mongering, social Darwinist-wannabe megalomaniac as its final boss, and that game came out in 2013!

[Todinho]

They even predicted the slogan XD, fiction really cant keep up with reality anymore:

[AndrewBrown]

Joshua Rivera's review of Far Cry 5 is not just an incredible review of a videogame, it's also a pretty damning takedown of the "cowardly" way we talk about videogames and the themes and stories they purport to tell. Especially timely given the recent release of the Ready Player One film adaptation and the podcast's recent coverage of the risible BioShock Infinite.

https://www.gq.com/story/far-cry-5-review