Videogame Criticism

This is where you can deliberate anything relating to videogames - past, present and future
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

Right.

For completeness sake, here's our Twitter conversation about the video.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by ratsoalbion »

I definitely agree with him about the in-game camera though!

It’s the first video of his I’ve watched so perhaps I’m not accustomed to his delivery yet.

Loads of credit for the work he’s put in.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Oh, definitely. And his type of critique is very useful. But there's a reason WE do what WE do, isn't there? :)
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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I'll admit that the main reason why I like him are his videos on the Uncharted series and TLoU. As someone who's very critical of these otherwise hugely acclaimed games, I don't feel like my point of view is being represented very often and I like that he is one of the few critics who took the time and effort to draw attention to what I perceived to be their inherent mechanical flaws. Perhaps I'd be more sensitive to his delivery if he was taking a shot at a game I loved instead, like what you guys are experiencing right now.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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I hear a lot of criticism regarding Naughty Dog’s games (as much as I like them).

I find a lot of that criticism to be fair and well considered, it’s just that what many people (critics included) fail to grasp is that those flaws may not be flaws to other people, or at least they may be less significant to them.

I really like SMO but it has slightly disappointed me in that I do not love it like I love the 10 year old SMG.

I have a number of qualms about design choices but I am not so arrogant as to think that the things I don’t like so much are things that everybody else should dislike. I think that’s where some critics rub people up the wrong way.

This approach is probably why I don’t receive as much flak as some, but also one of the reasons I’m not well known!
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Conversely, I think one might run into other issues by insisting on everything being entirely subjective. Shutting down critical analyses by saying "why can't everyone like what they like?" is often counterproductive. (I'm not saying that's what you or other C&R members are doing btw, but it has proven to be a fairly popular anti-conversational trump card on the general internet).

I think there is a healthy middle-ground to be found in which criticism is founded on facts and evidence, but without rushing to the type of conclusion you mention - the one where everybody who likes or dislikes something is wrong.

Using Naughty Dog's games as an example, I fully believe that there is a perfectly factual, evidence-backed argument to be made about the artificial shallowness of their mechanics when compared to other titles in the genre. But on the other hand, I would never agree with it being used to shame or talk down to the fans of those games. If people value different aspects of the experience, such as presentation or characterization, I think that's a perfectly valid perspective as well. There is enough room for the two viewpoints to coexist peacefully, as far as I'm concerned.

Facts and respect should not be mutually exclusive.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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KSubzero1000 wrote: January 12th, 2018, 5:52 pm Conversely, I think one might run into other issues by insisting on everything being entirely subjective. Shutting down critical analyses by saying "why can't everyone like what they like?" is often counterproductive. (I'm not saying that's what you or other C&R members are doing btw, but it has proven to be a fairly popular anti-conversational trump card on the general internet).

I think there is a healthy middle-ground to be found in which criticism is founded on facts and evidence, but without rushing to the type of conclusion you mention - the one where everybody who likes or dislikes something is wrong.

Using Naughty Dog's games as an example, I fully believe that there is a perfectly factual, evidence-backed argument to be made about the artificial shallowness of their mechanics when compared to other titles in the genre. But on the other hand, I would never agree with it being used to shame or talk down to the fans of those games. If people value different aspects of the experience, such as presentation or characterization, I think that's a perfectly valid perspective as well. There is enough room for the two viewpoints to coexist peacefully, as far as I'm concerned.

Facts and respect should not be mutually exclusive.
I think we're all saying the same things and coming to the same conclusion in essence, but maybe it's worth just emphasising that Leon (and I don't want to speak for him) and the rest of us are often extremely critical, sometimes scathing even, but with the understanding that what might be huge flaws from our perspective might not be to others on the panel for 1 game, or others outside of the CaR team for that matter. I think the Mario Kart 64 show is a good example of that, as it also highlights how previous experience with other games can colour one's critical accceptance and appreciation.

I think I'm pretty much alone in the team, and maybe in the wider CaR community in that I hold a very low opinion of the sacred cow Super Meat Boy. With my personal background in video games and the things I value in platform games, I don't find it in any way acceptable as a 2D platformer and I almost cringe every time someone calls it the best platform game since Super Mario World. However, I also recognise that for those who do like it, it might just be EXACTLY what they look for in a platformer (just raw obstacle courses, instant restarts etc) and they might even like to what me looks like drab and muted pixel art that appears like it was made in Deluxe Paint. :D

And yeah, people also play video games for different reasons and, in the case of Uncharted, might feel that deeper mechanics and more of a learning curve would get in the way of enjoying the story and aesthetics. I personally don't agree, but I can see that being a valid perspective. They like the series for its summer blockbuster appeal.

I think what one implies by presenting their opinion as objective fact is that it is more valid and superior to that of others. And while there is great merit to an educated opinion formed by more experience with certain games and genres and perhaps a higher level of critical thought - and I think opinions of these sorts are often wildly interesting, if only for that they might cause you to rethink your, own differing opinion and see where you personally stand - they in no way should devalue others' less loaded experiences and, in fact, an educated opinion of the sort I described can also induce a sort of tunnel vision, as Joseph Anderson demonstrates by presenting the concept of breadcrumb collectables as something inherently bad and taking up 45 minutes of, for lack of a better word, nitpicking, based on that notion.

It's an interesting discussion, anyway. :)
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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KSubzero1000 wrote: January 12th, 2018, 4:38 pm Perhaps I'd be more sensitive to his delivery if he was taking a shot at a game I loved instead, like what you guys are experiencing right now.
I don't love Super Mario Odyssey. I'm actually a tad disappointed with it. I just have a bit of an issue with the way Joseph Anderson presents his opinions. And I'm also disappointed in that I'm starting to see a lot of similarities between some tricks he, the mighty Matthewmatosis and Super Bunnyhop use to try and fool their audience into believing their opinions are in any way factual (if such a thing were ever even possible), be it a conscious effort or not.

One example would be like how they put in a lot of work to track loading times and unskippable animations / cinematics and tally them up together and go: "See? This game wastes x hours of your gaming time", never minding that these waiting times are not universally felt by everyone over the course of a 60+ hour adventure and might even be entirely inconsequential in that context. And never minding that in the case of Bunnyhop's Breath of the Wild review he neglected to mention that all the shrine animations can be skipped, maybe for the sake of making a point.

I'll still watch every video of Matthewmatosis and Super Bunnyhop on games that can't be spoiled for me, though. :)
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Michiel K wrote: January 14th, 2018, 10:01 am I think what one implies by presenting their opinion as objective fact is that it is more valid and superior to that of others. And while there is great merit to an educated opinion formed by more experience with certain games and genres and perhaps a higher level of critical thought - and I think opinions of these sorts are often wildly interesting, if only for that they might cause you to rethink your, own differing opinion and see where you personally stand - they in no way should devalue others' less loaded experiences and, in fact, an educated opinion of the sort I described can also induce a sort of tunnel vision, as Joseph Anderson demonstrates by presenting the concept of breadcrumb collectables as something inherently bad and taking up 45 minutes of, for lack of a better word, nitpicking, based on that notion.
Yes, that's an interesting point. Even informed and fact-based opinions are inherently subjective. I can definitely agree with that.

On the other hand, I think that a certain line is being crossed once outright falsehoods are being stated.

That's not elitism btw. It's just that I don't like seeing facts being thrown under the bus out of convenience or in order to accommodate someone's close-mindedness. A casual opinion is perfectly valid as long as it's an honest one. Does that make sense? As an example: While listening the semi-recent Bayonetta 2 podcast you were on, I got a sense that Leah had a very, for lack of a better word, casual perspective on the game. She didn't seem aware of a lot of the high-end technical details the rest of you were discussing, but it's not because she was actively going out of her way to dismiss them. It's just that she was approaching the game from a different angle. In the end, I thought the podcast benefited from her contribution, simply because she was being genuine and honest about her opinions. She was less invested in the topic than you or I might be, but without ever being biased and unfair.

To put it simply, I appreciate honesty. Someone who preemptively reaches a, usually drastic, conclusion and then retroactively tries to deny facts and nuanced elements that go against that is not providing valuable criticism, in my opinion.

I also think that the burden of research should fall onto those who want to present an informed opinion.

It's just that there is a lot of low-effort, high-contrast statements passing as "criticism" these days.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

100% agreed, dude. <3
Todinho

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Todinho »

Talking about unpopular opinions Silvermont pretty much nails why I dont really like Darkeater Midir:
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ratsoalbion
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by ratsoalbion »

I am always amused critical discourses that start with rhetoric which states or implies that the author’s opinion is gospel because they have been playing more videogames and for longer than me, the reader/viewer.

No you haven’t and no you haven’t.
:P
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Okay I've watched the video, and while I think that some of the criticism in regards to it being more of an endurance fight holds merit, I do have to address the elephant in the room. Is the footage in the background of him beating the boss? Because if so:

- Coop increases the boss's health.
- Midir is resistant to magical attacks.
- Midir takes twice as much damage from attacks directed at his head.

In other words, slashing away at his talons with the Greatsword of Judgment while your cooperators fumble around in the background is probably the most tedious and drawn-out way to fight the boss. I seem to recall that the way you finally beat him, Todinho, was to play defensively and focus almost exclusively on head attacks, which is a much more effective and time-efficient strategy.

I get where he's coming from, but he's really not helping his case with that footage.

And another thing: He mentioned NG2, and while I generally prefer that type of short and intense boss fight myself, the two games have very different design philosophies when it comes to combat. Dark Souls is a much more slow-paced and methodical type of action game, so I don't think that substituting their bosses would make sense.

On the other hand, the lore criticism is fair.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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rob25X wrote: October 18th, 2017, 9:59 am Anyone got an opinion on Max Payne 3?

Finished the story last night and did not enjoy the game one bit. Terribly boring storytelling, unskippable cinematic overkill, awful controls, predictible gameplay, annoying music, constant unnecessary use of the F-word etc. etc.

Max Payne 1 was and still is one of my favorite games of all time, but Max Payne 3 was horrible in my opinion. None of the charm of the first game or character.
I appreciate I'm rather late to this conversation, but Max Payne 3 was magnificent in my opinion. I loved the first two games and didn't click with the third for a while, but once I did, it's easily my favorite third person narrative driven shooter. Perfect gunplay, incredible graphics and the most epic gun fights. An absolute gem of a game, and I'd love a port to current gen just to play it all again.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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KSubzero1000 wrote: January 12th, 2018, 5:52 pm Conversely, I think one might run into other issues by insisting on everything being entirely subjective.
But surely, as with books, films and music, it is.

From a mechanical point of view, you could argue certain games are fundamentally broken in some aspect or other, but if that broken-ness doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the game for the player, then it still can't objectively be called a bad game.

I hear all the criticism against the Uncharted series, but honestly, I don't pay it too much attention because in my eyes those games are brilliant, and nothing anyone says will change my mind.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Alex79uk wrote: January 14th, 2018, 2:41 pm
From a mechanical point of view, you could argue certain games are fundamentally broken in some aspect or other, but if that broken-ness doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the game for the player, then it still can't objectively be called a bad game.
Aha! But can we at least call it a badly made game (that some would find enjoyable, despite that)? :)
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Alex79uk wrote: January 14th, 2018, 2:41 pm But surely, as with books, films and music, it is.
Depends on what you mean by "it". Opinions, tastes and interpretations are obviously subjective, but the facts they are (usually) being based on aren't. That's why there's a gradual curve between subjectivity and objectivity. I think that reducing the concept to a simple binary is a mistake.
Alex79uk wrote: January 14th, 2018, 2:41 pm From a mechanical point of view, you could argue certain games are fundamentally broken in some aspect or other, but if that broken-ness doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the game for the player, then it still can't objectively be called a bad game.
No, of course not. The final value that individuals assign to various pieces of media is completely subjective. In that sense, no game can ever objectively be called a good or a bad game. Quality and personal enjoyment are not mathematical data points can be quantified and proven. That'd be absurd.

But that's not what I meant. What I meant is that before you can have a conversation about various subjective points of view, you need to take facts into consideration first.

Let me give you an example:

-Person A: "I don't like The Godfather because I find Michael's sudden development in the third act to be out of character." - Fair, reasonable opinion. Probably based on careful thought and analysis.

-Person B: "I don't like The Godfather because it's too long." - Again, fair, reasonable opinion. It's understandable that it might be a deal-breaker to some. This criticism is perhaps more superficial than what Person A said, but no less valid.

-Person C: "I don't like The Godfather because I don't like Jack Nicholson as an actor." - That statement is just based on a fundamental misunderstanding of facts. Subjective? Yes. Valid? Not really.

The issue being of course further compounded when someone tries to inform Person C of the fact that Jack Nicholson never played any role in The Godfather, only for Person C to act offended and to complain about not being "allowed" to have an "opinion". See the issue here? Because this type of stuff happens every day. Close-mindedness being disguised as personal freedom.

In short, I think that criticism and exchange of viewpoints are like, say, building a house. Everyone is personally responsible for building their house in their own personal way according to their own personal tastes and preferences, but people do need to understand how terrain and soil works first. Building your house in the middle of a bog or on top of a sand dune is not gonna lead to a very solid result.
Alex79uk wrote: January 14th, 2018, 2:41 pm nothing anyone says will change my mind
No offense Alex, but I think that's a very needlessly defensive position to take that can lead to a lot of frustration and misunderstandings. The point of good criticism is not to convince you of anything, it's to make you understand where someone else is coming from. What's the point of only paying attention to statements and conclusions you already agree with?

I'm glad you like the Uncharted games and I would never try to convince you of them being inherently bad. But if me not liking them is enough for you (or others) to dismiss and ignore what I have to say, what's the point in having polite conversations and mature platforms like this one?


In the end, I think there is a general cultural issue at play here.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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It wasn't meant to be defensive, I was making the point that if I like something, even the most well thought out and articulated argument pointing out all of its flaws won't change my enjoyment of it. I'm certainly not someone who doesn't listen to other people's points of view, and I enjoy having my own opinions challenged, but ultimately if I like something, I like it. I don't think that making that statement automatically means I have a closed mind and am not open to debate. I think it's quite a leap to get from what I said to what you thought I meant.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Ah, fair enough. I probably didn't explain myself very well and I apologize for that. It's good that you're keeping an open mind even on topics you feel very strongly about, but I see statements like that often being used by others in a very defensive and spiteful way. Didn't mean to single you out, sorry.

Did the rest of my explanation make sense, at least? Do you understand what I mean when I say that not everything is entirely subjective?
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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Yeah it did make sense, thanks.
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