Retro gaming

This is where you can deliberate anything relating to videogames - past, present and future
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Alex79
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Alex79 »

Oh yeah absolutely. Original hardware is always preferable. Even with stuff like playing SNES games on the VC on Wii, there are tiny noticable differences with the jump timing in Super Mario World I've noticed, to give one example. It's a split millisecond delay I'm sure - could be imagining it - but it never felt quite right to me.

EDIT - which may well be down to the television rather than the emulation. But still.
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Craig
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Craig »

Yeah, that`s most likely lag coming from your TV which is difficult to minimise. While it`s great to have the original hardware but emulation you get the trade off of convenience. I guess it all depends on what you level of good enough is! It wildly varies from console to console too. N64 is still a tricky one and from what I understand Saturn was only recently opened up.
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Suits
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Suits »

Craig wrote:I guess it all depends on what you level of good enough is! It wildly varies from console to console too.
This is a good point.

If you're into it, my advice would be to decided a specific console and focus on that, as most RGB cables are console specific and to save spending hundreds of pounds at retrocables.com on many different connections, I chose the Super Famicom.

It can be a bit of a rabbit hole but do your research and you can get pretty damn good results for just a few cables.

For the ultimate, try and get yourself a PVM. The first time I powered mine up with my Super Famicom, it was almost emotional :lol: .
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KissMammal
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by KissMammal »

Tangent time!

Was discussing the upcoming Cyberpunk game from CD Projekt Red with a colleague the other day, and we realised that that vision of the future is basically retro now. When created it was a sci-fi vision of what might happen in the next twenty years. But we're twenty years on now and it seems very, well, 80s.

It's comparable to the 50s sci-fi version of the future. I guess all sci-fi is like this really, it's about the present through the lens of the fantastic. Always a product of the time it was created than any real attempt to predict the way the future will really be.

The most amusing thing that 80s Cyberpunk got wrong was the ubiquity of the mobile phone. It just didn't seem like something that could happen. So you've got lots of people going to public terminals to 'jack in' and so on.
I think about that stuff too.There's a certain kind of narrative dissonance you get when, say, a character in a sci fi story set hundreds of years in the future reads a physical newspaper or makes a call on a landline phone. It actually puts me off stuff. For example I've heard great things about the Expanse series of books (and the TV show). I tried to read the first novel, but the setting just seemed very hackneyed and old fashioned- a very outdated vision of what the future will be like, that contemporary advancements in tech has already rendered obsolete. I just couldn't get into it as a result.

There's always talk of a movie adaptation of Neuromancer, but in my opinion the concepts in that book are so dated the only way they could make it work in a modern context would be as a knowingly anachronistic/retro 1980s sci fi aesthetic. No reason that couldn't work, though I suppose.
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Flabyo wrote:The most amusing thing that 80s Cyberpunk got wrong was the ubiquity of the mobile phone. It just didn't seem like something that could happen. So you've got lots of people going to public terminals to 'jack in' and so on.
That got me thinking about Dick Tracy and his radio/phone watch, and then that got me thinking about a bit on The Flophouse where it was pointed out that the villains in Dick Tracy are basically just people with disabilities, and that Dick Tracy is basic an intolerant dick. :lol:

I was hoping the future would be car phones, complete with curly cord. I used to see a lot of those in concept cars back in my childhood and thinking "wow!"
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Re: Retro gaming

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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Suits wrote:Yearly sports games are essential, if they stopped bring those out yearly that entire market would be miffed.

Genres for one nowadays are less distinctive I feel, with more genres crossing over into other genres or taking key aspects from one and injecting it into another and such. Not that's that is a bad thing perhaps but I certainly think it levels the playing field a bit in overall scope of things coming out on the big consoles, things tend to feel more samey than they used to I think.
Without putting words into your mouth, "homogenous" is perhaps the feeling I get sometimes. It's the irony of being able to bring a lot of different, unique gaming aspects together, only to create more of the same-old. As someone who has no coding skills and does not design games at all (though I'd like learn the skills), I'm not sure of the solution to that. It's certainly a challenge with open world games.

Though I must say, I'm glad Ubisoft are giving the yearly FIFA/Madden alternative, Assassin's Creed, a bit of a rest. Out of the entire series I only own three games: the very first, the much improved 2nd game, and finally, Black Flag, and that was mostly because of the setting. When it comes to the choice of pirates or ninjas, I choose both.
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Flabyo
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Flabyo »

The resting of Assassin's Creed was probably worth them doing. Unity wasn't a *bad* game, but it was a bit of a tired re-tread (and the buggy launch didn't do it any favours). A lot of people probably didn't even give Syndicate a chance, which is a shame as Syndicate is probably the strongest Assassin's Creed in years.

I could've seen them taking a strategy to alternate between it and Watch Dogs now, but the sales of Watch Dogs 2 have apparently been pretty awful (again, people burned by the previous game not even taking a look at the next, despite reviews saying its much better).
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Flabyo wrote:I could've seen them taking a strategy to alternate between it and Watch Dogs now, but the sales of Watch Dogs 2 have apparently been pretty awful (again, people burned by the previous game not even taking a look at the next, despite reviews saying its much better).
I have been reading those positive reviews about Watch Dogs 2 as well, as well as feedback from others on this forum. I just wonder what Ubisofts expectations were in regards to sales, and whether those expectations should have been adjusted!

I think back to older articles where Square Enix was disappointed about the sales figures for the Tomb Raider reboot (2013), despite the positive press and it actually selling a ton of copies. There seems to be some sort of sales disconnect going on in. The industry... :roll:
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Craig
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Craig »

They're kind of in a hard place right now. The cost to make a game has steadily been rising so to recoup that costs, they have to expect to have an absurd amount of copies. The infamous story was Tomb Raider selling below expectations at 4 million copies.

So realistically, they have to cut their expectations. Which means to turn a profit they have to cut their budget. Which means they either need to be more cost effective or they won't be able to reach the same levels of detail and fidelity expected of their peers. And if they are planning to sell it for the same price, and people's time and cash are limited, they run the risk of being seen as the lesser budget option and selling even fewer copies.

The triple A budget games market seems like somewhat of an arms race right now, with everyone pushing to be the biggest and the best, but if publishers are saying big sellers are still not enough to sustain that, it's an issue.

On the other side of the spectrum you have indie titles being cheaper and easier (in purely mechanical terms) to make and publish. Thanks to things like game maker, we're seeing brilliant games from people who never would have been able to enter the industry 10 years ago. But the perception is still there that these games aren't quite worth the same as big budget titles, and whenever an indie dev tries to push that upper limit of price, there's always a huge pushback.

I think this has somewhat been exacerbated by people getting used to not paying for media. You can legally listen to thousands of hours of music, for free. You can illegally, but still very easily and conveniently, watch pretty much any movie instantly on demand. Even when you have Netflix it doesn't really feel like you're paying anything when you watch a movie.

I'm not really sure what the end game is or how we'll see this evolve. Personally, I'd love for Nintendo to do a Netflix like subscription service to their Virtual Console (and for them to support it better) but I think Nintendo is the last people you'll see this from.
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Flabyo
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Flabyo »

Even in the indie space the quality bar is being raised so high that you almost have to *look* like a AAA title now to have people care about your game.

(There are outliers, like Undertale, but there are always outliers. The biggest problem facing indie developers isn't cost now, it's that the market is saturated).

In terms of development costs, the bulk of it is still salaries. You need so many more people now to reach what is considered by the paying public the minimum aesthetic requirement because the machines can push so much more stuff around. I've said it before, but the industry is crying out for innovations in content creation to bring that cost down. If you can use less people, or find ways for the tasks your people do to take less time, then costs can come down.
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

The market for indie games certainly is saturated, and I guess the only way around that is to not only have the programming and design skills, but skills in marketing. It's kind of like if you're a musician, it's beneficial to not only play a few instruments, but have some business skills, and understanding of marketing to at least establish some sort of fan base. It's fun to just jam with friends, but to form a band and go through all the other non glamorous business aspects... you have to love what you do because there isn't much money in it.

There's definitely no quick and easy solutions, but something will eventually give. You guys have said it much better than me.

As someone who owns a copy of Gamemaker, and is rubbish with it, I have so much respect and appreciation for the people who can actually create something amazing with it! There are so many tools out there now, and resources, and when I decide to dedicate some time to actually making a game (which realistically, I'm not in a hurry), it'll certainly be for love. I'll die a very financially poor man, no doubt about that!
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Jobobonobo »

In regards to how gaming today compares to that of the past, I reckon that things have changed in a lot of ways some for the better, some for the worse. One thing that always slightly miffs me is the complaint that "games I played as a child were so much more original and magical, nowadays it is nothing but Call of Duty! Get off my lawn!" First off, they are still games that are brimming full of creativity and full of wonder and charm. You just need to know where to look. just a month ago, I played Tearaway Unfolded and the sheer love and passion that its creators put into that game was oozing from the screen. It instantly transported me back to when I ran outside the castle in Mario 64. I do not give a hoot about Call of Duty and I find it quite easy to ignore, games are more diverse nowadays than they were 5 years ago. If you genuinely do not care for modern gaming, fine, but give it a chance before you dismiss it as all rehashes. By the way, gaming is alays dominated by one genre for a time. Before military shooters, there was a glut of games copying Street Fighter and Sonic the Hedgehog. And the thing is, most of those titles were rubbish. The classics were considered exceptional for their time and is why they hold up today and I'm sure that will be the case for highly beloved titles today.

As for what I do not like about gaming today, well, Call of Duty does play a part into it. By which I mean, the annualisation of franchises is a trend that should never be applied to games outside of sports titles. I was initially interested in trying the Assassin creed series but with god knows how many out now, how could I ever get the time to go through the whole series and can the series really keep being interesting after such saturation? Also the annual mindset leads to games being rushed and buggy at release (Unity being the most infamous example). Not to mention, it does not help the perception of the gaming industry as being boring, predictable and afraid of change (but they are alternatives, if you know where to seek them and they are what still interest me about gaming today).

I also dislike the idea of games not being sold as complete packages. Some games having to be constantly patched or released as early access and the other features being accessed a few months down the line (Street Fighter V, I'm looking at you!). Not to mention, publishers locking so much content behind DLC and the madness of pre order culture. And lastly, I miss local multiplayer.

So yes, gaming for me has being more full of choice, is still full of original ideas and has never being more diverse but it is also more exploitative and prone to franchise fatigue than ever before. It is a real mixed bag.
Joshihatsumitsu

Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

I do agree with you, especially as I do have kids on my front lawn playing Call of Duty. Why they can't do that at their home, I'll never know... :D

And I think when you combine the diversity of modern gaming with older titles and systems, then we all are really spoilt for choice (and short on time to exploit that fully).

For example, the PC Engine/TurboGrafx was never released in Australia, and all I knew about it was through gaming magazines at the time, pawing through those colour pictures of games I'll never experience. And this year I bought one (PC Engine, very affordable), and from my point of view pretty much everything in that library will be a "new" game for me.

There are many spoils to be had, and not enough time... :cry:
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Jobobonobo »

Joshihatsumitsu wrote:I do agree with you, especially as I do have kids on my front lawn playing Call of Duty. Why they can't do that at their home, I'll never know... :D
If the Switch really takes off, kids playing Call of Duty on your lawn will become more likely than you think! :)

As far as playing retro stuff nowadays, really do not have the time for it anymore I'm afraid. The closest I can get is by downloading remastered versions of classics such as Abe's Odyssey or Grim Fandango which I do intend to do some point in the future. Oh well, there is the 3DS as well, so I might try Link's Awakening sometime down the line as well. But there is a lot more stuff that I need to try first (and plenty of stuff that keeps coming out) that gets in the way of going back to the classics. Luckily, I played a lot of them growing up so I am not too deprived of what the best of previous generations could offer.
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Jobobonobo wrote:
Joshihatsumitsu wrote:I do agree with you, especially as I do have kids on my front lawn playing Call of Duty. Why they can't do that at their home, I'll never know... :D
If the Switch really takes off, kids playing Call of Duty on your lawn will become more likely than you think! :)
Oh no! :o Now I have mixed feelings about wanting the Switch to succeed!

I assume the people who buy the Switch are going to look like the clean-cut models in the promotional video? I assume advertising is very accurate? :P
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Michiel K
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Michiel K »

Joshihatsumitsu wrote:
I'm curious: how does Waku Waku 7 play on the Saturn? The only version I have is from the PS2 Sunsoft collection (Japanese, of course), and even though I own a Neo Geo, there's no way on this planet I could afford an official AES or MVS version on the game!

Waku Waku 7 has been on my eBay watch list for a while, just wondering if it's worth diving into that version.
It was one of the first games I went after when I got my NTSC-J Saturn, as it was much more affordable than an AES or MVS cart... and I must say I was pretty disappointed.

One would have thought that with RAM expansion the Saturn could have easily handled any NEO-GEO game, but there is more slowdown and the backgrounds and some special move effects are more pixelated and blockier than in the original, which makes it a bit harsh on the eyes. The disc didn't cost me much, so I was not too bothered, but I wouldn't go out of your way to get this version.
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Michiel K »

ratsoalbion wrote:I mean this in the nicest possible way (heck, I subscribe to Retro Gamer magazine for goodness sake), but I hate the term 'retro' gaming.

Some games are just more recent than others.
I don't get the idea that there's some arbitrary cut-off point where a game goes from current to "retro".

I completely understand the purpose of a thread like this however, and feel free to think me grumpy and/or picky.

But if you watch Casablanca, Duck Soup or Alien do you say you're watching a 'retro' movie?
Possibly 'vintage' or 'classic'. Much nicer I think!
;)
Very much agreed.

It's also a weird misnomer as 'retro' describes a (fashion) aesthetic. Retro sneakers aren't an old pair of shoes, but new shoes that call back to models of gone by eras. Going by that, Shovel Knight is a retro-styled game (or retro game) whereas Mega Man 2 and Ducktales are old (or classic / vintage) games. Retro Gamer as a name for the video makes more sense, as it could describe a person with retro gaming habits, i.e. preferring to play older games. The only times I use it, is as a catch-all hashtag on Twitter and Instagram.

I personally don't like to divide games into categories of current or old/classic and play games of all eras indiscriminately. I've let go of the notion that improvements in technology make older games obsolete long ago, as design ethos's and even whole genres have fallen by the wayside and every era has games of types that just aren't currently made anymore, just as there are games coming out now that could have never been done 10 years ago. I especially like to discover older games I've never played and be met with daring, unusual mechanics, hardware defying technical wizardry and audiovisual themes that no big publisher in their right mind would sign off on nowadays.
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Sinclair Gregstrum »

I can see where Leon's coming from with his point and you with yours Michiel, but personally I've got no problem with it as a label, and that's all it is really, just a label for convenience.

Sure games are games are games. Wouldn't dispute that for a second, but the use of the term 'retro' in a gaming context has sprung up largely as an identifier for those people who actually prefer or have a particular passion for games of the past rather than those of the present. Movements, trends, fashions etc have always had labels and names regardless of the medium in question. It's just a quick and simple way for someone to define who they are or something about them in a single word rather than having to give an explanation.

If you want to be picky then sure the use of the word retro is incorrect as by modern definition retro describes something that self consciously imitates the past, whereas actually retro gamers are largely playing the genuine article. However, it's not the first and won't be the last time that a word is misappropriated and then becomes common parlance in a that new context regardless.

That's the gloriously ever-evolving nature of language!
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Michiel K
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Re: Retro gaming

Post by Michiel K »

Sinclair Gregstrum wrote:If you want to be picky then sure the use of the word retro is incorrect as by modern definition retro describes something that self consciously imitates the past, whereas actually retro gamers are largely playing the genuine article. However, it's not the first and won't be the last time that a word is misappropriated and then becomes common parlance in a that new context regardless.

That's the gloriously ever-evolving nature of language!
This is very much true. :) And I do use it sometimes when character limits are in effect and for easy hashtag grouping, like I wrote before.
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