All things Bayonetta

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AndyKurosaki
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by AndyKurosaki »

I'd say Nintendo have put a lot of money into exclusivity, so I'd be surprised if it goes multiformat. If it features a lot of Gamepad support, then it may stick to Wii U permanently. Madworld did, after all.

Still, think it's pretty shameful some dickheads are firing death threats at Nintendo/Platinum/Sega for it, get some fucking perspective, jesus. As I said, I'm disapointed it's not on 360/PS3. But as CVG point out, if it hadn't been for Nintendo's cash-injection, it may not have happened at all.

There's definitely enough Wii U exclusives to justify buying one (this, Zombie U, Rayman, New Super Mario). But I can't pay full price, not with a Cruise to pay for in April.
Mr Nicey

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Mr Nicey »

I echo your sentiments. It is a shame that it's not on 360 or PS3 but what Nintendo are doing is working.

With enough exclusive titles I will end up buying one when I find it cheaper. Back to the days of exclusivity with Nintendo in the mix. The next few years could be fun!
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James
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by James »

DomsBeard wrote:Is anyone not interested in the wii u before now paying £250-£300 for Bayonetta 2? ;)
Before the Bayonetta 2 announcement I really wasn't interested in the WiiU due, simply, to a lack of games that I couldn't play elsewhere/earlier. Bayonetta 2 may not have swung it alone (as Rayman: Legends looks great too), but I'm now saving for a WiiU. So that's, what... £150 for Bayonetta 2? ;)
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JaySevenZero
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by JaySevenZero »

PlexShaw wrote:Sega have nothing to do with this as it's published by Nintendo.
I think this is possibly more of an indication as to the current state of SEGA as a publisher as they apparently passed on publishing this game, thus allowing for Nintendo to step in and grab exclusivity. Perhaps at last Nintendo have started to take the initiative rather than let potential successes slip through their fingers like they did with LittleBigPlanet, but having an exclusive such as this doesn't mean it's going to be plain sailing for them, they'd better be prepared to market the hell out of it too.
Kayin Amoh

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Kayin Amoh »

Nintendo could use some third party exclusives at this point to entice potential buyers. Bayonetta 2 isn't much of an enticement for me, but if they said that Devil's Third was now exclusive to the Wii U I'd have my wallet open in seconds.
Todinho

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Todinho »

With Bayonetta 2 around the corner I suppose alot of people are gonna want to play it so here's some guides from the best Bayonetta player on youtube so you can learn to play Bayonetta like a boss ;)





These videos really show just how complex and beautiful these games can be,oh and here's the author of these tutorials beating Bayonetta's secret/most difficult boss in 43 seconds proving she`s indeed the best.
Spoiler: show
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dezm0nd
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by dezm0nd »

Kayin Amoh wrote:Nintendo could use some third party exclusives at this point to entice potential buyers. Bayonetta 2 isn't much of an enticement for me, but if they said that Devil's Third was now exclusive to the Wii U I'd have my wallet open in seconds.
They listened! ;)
Todinho

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Todinho »

Yeah seeing the Bayonetta 2 reviews brings a warmth to my heart :D ...that being said fuck that Polygon Review I hate doing this but giving this game a 7,5 because of "over-sexualization" is stupid beyond belief and meanwhile DMC,a game that has a scene where someone shoots a fetus with sniper rifle, gets an 8.I get that are different people reviewing but goddamn it doesnt make this review any less stupid and I get it reviews are subjective but if literally your only negative thing to say about a game is "over sexualization" and the actual combat system(which is the main reason people are looking foward to play the game) is great maybe you should consider giving it a score based on what the game is actually about and not about what you personally feel it should be about.

Sorry about the rant,These things are just getting to me nowadays I blame the election year for it.
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ratsoalbion
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by ratsoalbion »

It's impossible to review objectively though, and if the writer isn't reflecting their honest opinions and experiences then they're not doing their job properly.
Saying that a game's great because it's technically sound and slick and all that stuff doesn't really cut it any more.

If you know that you don't share those feelings about the presentation of Bayonetta then you know you can disagree with that review, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

Fortunately there are a shedload of other, far more positive reviews of the game out there for us to hang our hats on and be excited for the game.
:)
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Scrustle
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Scrustle »

I think that criticising Bayonetta for "oversexualisation" is really damn stupid. Totally misses the whole point of why the suggestive content is there, which never even gets explicit. It's always done very tongue-in-cheek, and never actually shows anything other than some silly poses and silly camera angles that emphasise that. I think it's Polygon doing what they do a lot recently, and putting out another poorly thought out, knee-jerk reaction to something that they feel like they should be offended by, and not really examining it particularly deeply or being fair about it. That's why I don't pay much heed to any of their reviews.

But with that said, it's still just someone's opinion. Although I think it's a stupid, misguided, and premature opinion, it's still an honest one. So a reviewer is totally entitled to say that about the game if that's what they thought. I'll just not listen and take it as the reviewer being a bit of a moron. Also, this isn't even really that big of a deal. 7.5 is still a pretty good score. That's a lot higher than average. If I made a game, and the highest score I got from any big review site was a 7.5, I would be thrilled.

But we're stuck in this chicken-and-egg problem with review scores, where perceptions of what scores mean is inflated. Do people think a 7 means "bad" because reviewers are too easily impressed and don't use any lower score, or are reviewers genuinely wanting to portray a 7 as "good", but audiences are just picky when there are so many great games out there? They're probably both true to some extent, but in the grand scheme of things, pretty much anything above a 5 is technically "good" and might be worth looking at.
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Flabyo
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Flabyo »

Polygon is a very left-leaning review site, with a very definite agenda. It's going to bring its politics into everything it reports. Indeed, that was one of its stated aims when it was a created.

Part of what I'm not understanding about the whole 'give us proper gaming sites!' nonsense is that many people can't seem to accept the existence of sites that have an agenda and that there might be an audience that wants to read it.

You wouldn't read a newspaper whose politics you disagree with, why read a gaming site?

If it weren't for metacritic I doubt anyone would even care what Polygon write.
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DomsBeard
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by DomsBeard »

I don't really pay any attention to review scores anymore as all everyone seems to do is argue about a number at the end, it's nearly as tedious as the endless ps4/xbox one "which runs better" articles that appear almost daily now.
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ratsoalbion
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by ratsoalbion »

Re Flabyo: Absolutely.

Although I'm very much left-leaning myself (as are the majority of the CaR crew I believe, and know in some cases) I'm not a big fan of Polygon by and large. They seem to attempt to attract traffic by standing out from the crowd a lot of the time. In that respect 7.5 feels like a bit of a cop-out.

I mean, if there was a game which had the most incredible graphics and astonishingly solid, compelling gameplay EVAR but had me playing as a hooded KKK member lynching and burning black people in the deep south of the USA, I'm not going to give that even a weakened recommendation, right?

"Yeah, the subject matter's a bit questionable to say the least but it looks amazing, the soundtrack is brilliant and I can't put it down so 7/10".
:lol:

But yeah, if you're of the mindset that reviewers who have sometimes find they have negative feelings towards games that they feel depict racism/xenophobia/homophobia/sexism/misogyny should put all that one side when critiquing or are misguided in some way, then I'm surprised you'd listen to Cane and Rinse to be honest, because that describes at least half of the crew, probably more.
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Scrustle
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Scrustle »

I suppose when you have a situation like that, the idea of a single score breaks down and becomes unhelpful. When a game is technically great, in terms of gameplay and technology, but has content that's so off-putting, trying to assign a single number as a gauge of quality for the entire game kind of misrepresents both sides of that opinion. How do you numerically quantify well designed mechanics against super racist/bigoted overtones? Can't really be done. You can't really say one makes up for the other, or vice versa, and to trying to create a trade-off puts the game in this uncomfortable middle-ground.

And if anyone's actually interested, I took one of those online quizzes about where you lie on the political spectrum once, and I landed pretty much exactly where the Dalai Lama supposedly was. Not sure how accurate that really was, but that's what it said. A little left-from-centre.
Todinho

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Todinho »

I get what you guys are saying and I guess the largest problem here is the score system itself like Scrutle said you cant quantify these type of things and balance things out to give a score and in a age where metacritic is a thing and devolopers get their bonuses cut if they dont hit a certain score unfortunally these matter especially since Bayonetta 2 probably wont sell very well outside Japan too.This score thing unfortunally creates a whole bunch of problems if we look at Gone Home score for example it was 10/10 but how can we judge that and Bayonetta 2 by the same standarts?Bayonetta 2 is a much complex game to make but at the same time some would argue that writing Gone Home is more difficult so how do you balance that how can you put both in a scale and say this deserves a better score than this?

Also I know Polygon stance on these types of things and I know newspapers often have a stance depending how owns them but I hate that!In a ideal world newspapers should be imparcial and their only goal should be the truth by investigating and seeing all sides,unfortunally this isnt the case in our world but you can still try to achieve that for example there`s a newspaper here called Folha de Sao paulo that is very consevative and right-leaning however they still allow writers that have a different view to write for them with certain frequency as well as letting readers send letters comenting on articles and disagreeing with them,I think having something like that for many of the big gamming sites would be great it would offer a broader view and more healthy debate instead of single views,that`s one of the reasons I come here to see games being tackled from multiple different perspectives :)

Also I maybe getting into conspiracy theory territory but I wonder how much of these types of "left leaning" articles comes from actual concerns and not from "Well we know this gives us traffic and money so lets keep making them regardless of thought put into it"
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Scrustle
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Scrustle »

There's a lot of talk of "agenda pushing" when it comes to Polygon and sites like it these days when it comes to reviews. You also often hear people say they want "objective" and "unbiased" reviews, which isn't dissimilar to asking for something "impartial", and I think it's all nonsense. While these things should definitely be followed when it comes to actual "truth by investigation", that's not what a review is. It's not trying to uncover facts about something. A review is just someone's opinion. Even if it's a statement that's innocuous and everyone agrees with it, it's still a subjective opinion. And I think an agenda is just part of that. It's just a perspective of seeing the world through. The thing that influences opinions. Everyone has an agenda. Like I'm sure anyone who likes games in any capacity at all has an "agenda" to see more good games, and a "bias" towards that.

But sometimes some people are a bit more specific about that, which is fine. People want to express what they think is good and right, and they should be allowed to do that. They shouldn't be beholden to not say that just because people don't agree with the exact same ideas. As I have been saying, I think this attitude you see coming up a lot in recent game media that seems to treat sexuality of any kind as always being completely morally reprehensible is completely shallow and short-sighted idiocy, so I don't agree with this particular agenda at all myself. I just think people tend to criticise writers for the wrong thing when it comes to agendas. Attacking people simply for having them, as if they're unaware they have their own. In reality, what people don't like is the specific agenda of the author. And that's fine too, but if that's the problem, focus on that. Exactly why the author's agenda is flawed, not that they have one. Otherwise then you're just saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to express a different opinion than yours.

But I also don't think it's so much of a conspiracy to say that sites often to create articles that they know will stir the hornet's nest to get page clicks and ad revenue. Recently, when the whole Adblock thing was going on, a lot of sites wrote about the topic. Some places actually gave pretty frank appeals to their audience, while still managing to not antagonise them. Destructoid was one the main participants in that conversation at the time, and around then, they actually admitted to purposefully creating click-bait articles, because they were more or less forced to because of the impact of Adblock. It is a practice that happens, even on sites that aren't concerned with looking like they are some kind of force for good in the industry. I'm sure at least one or two of these more recent, far left leaning game sites are doing what they're doing with the full awareness and intention for creating click-bait. It just also happens to align with their mission statement. I'm not accusing them of being insincere, because I don't think they are, but it does certainly give them an easy justification for not holding back on their more radical, and perhaps less thought out opinion pieces.
arry_g

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by arry_g »

Well, this is an interesting point we've stumbled upon. I'm almost tempted to create a thread and discuss this more with people as I'm not sure the Bayonetta thread is the place to focus on it, the whole political scale is exactly that, a scale. The far left is often problematic and the far right is often problematic... this is obvious.

I think if you look at most games media, if you look at most gaming podcasts and if you speak to most gaming enthusiasts (and by that I mean the sort of guy or gal who cares about gaming beyond the game they play, e.g. the medium as a whole, the industry, game design theory and/or game design critique) they tend to lean to the left. Naturally there are exceptions and I this subjectively because ultimately my mindset sits firmly on the left (and social-science says we are most attracted to watch and listen to things that confirm our beliefs). That said, there is a scale - I am a left-wing individual and I proudly weigh social equality and rights above commercial gain or conservative traditionalism but I acknowledge that capitalism has to exist in some capacity and that dismissing or calling out everything that does not align with where I am on the scale (either further left, more to the centre or further right) does not need to be called out but that said it can be an interesting read. It can open your eyes.

With all this in mind, I usually read Polygon and I hear what they have to say and I listen to Rebel FM and I acknowledge what Arthur Geis says. There is nothing wrong with having different outlets focus on different elements of videogames. This same practice goes on in newspapers (The Sun or The News of the World will put a different spin on a story than The Times or the Independent), movies, books, comedy (The Pub Landlord persona by Al Murray is a self proclaimed left-wing comedian parodying a traditional right-wing nationalist) and just about everything. So for me a website is fine to call out the objectification of women; Bayonetta is overly sexualised and excessive crotch and cleavage shots can be considered tasteless whether it is by-design, celebrating the sexuality of women or even parodying it. People have the right to call that out and if your site/magazine's audience, your demographic is likely to be affected by that (and Polygon for example will attract people who are fairly far left-wing) they are in their rights to call those things out because some people will find that offensive and have the right to be represented too.

As far as I am concerned when a buyer (the person the reviewer is informing) buys a game, parts with a significant amount for the latest big release they have a right to choose whether to rely on the collective reviews or a place that reviews to their tastes specifically. Content becomes important in this context equal to how the game performs technically. It is legitimate to fault for over sexualisation, some people will consider that a problem - those people should be represented and I certainly wouldn't call it stupid. It's by-design, sure. Bayonetta is supposed to be sexy, silly, camp and over the top but looked at in a certain light the idea that she's an objectification of women is valid... she's a sex object after all, she is also empowered though. Two sides of a coin, either argument is valid.

MetaCritic is a problem with the industry, to be honest it should not factor into a reviewer's review of the content or the gameplay. The right to free speech in press and the media in general should not be guided by aggregate scoring systems, the fact that developer's livelihoods are tied to this at all is a disgusting practice... one of many in the industry I dare say.

Anyway, enough of this. The game has reviewed well, the content leaves people in two minds but it seems the gameplay is remarkably solid. As a fan of the first, I will play the second.
Todinho

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Todinho »

Just so we are all clear here even if I really dislike that Bayonetta 2 review Im not calling for people to storm the polygon office and burn everything to the ground ok,but even if criticism is subjective that doesnt mean it's wrong have criticism about someone else's criticism say if someone said that Bayonetta 2 deserved a 7 but not because of over sexualization but soley because the main character is a woman and they said that was stupid in a hack;slash game you would be well within your right to call them out on it and nobody would say you were attacking the guy or trying to censor him.
But as it was said the main problem comes from the score system itself as long as this is a thing in the market that can influence and make or break developers we will keep seeing this again and again.

PS: I find funny that people consider Polygon or any other similar gaming publication far-left,they can be left leaning of course but far-left is bit of a exageration,seriously the polygon crew would be eaten for breakfast by the communists in my university XD
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Flabyo
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Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by Flabyo »

But does the existence of metacritic, and the way it affects game development, mean that reviews should be written to take into account the damage it might do to developers? I'd say no, because that way madness lies. (I've seen some people on twitter today saying that reviewers have a social responsibility to not harm developers, which is complete bullshit)

Destructoid, for example, have never given any game in the Fable series a good score. I can disagree with that, but I'm not about to tell them they can't say that.
arry_g

Re: Bayonetta 2

Post by arry_g »

Todinho wrote:PS: I find funny that people consider Polygon or any other similar gaming publication far-left,they can be left leaning of course but far-left is bit of a exageration,seriously the polygon crew would be eaten for breakfast by the communists in my university XD
When people call Polygon "far left" it is in context to the rest of the industry (which is reality naturally to the left itself) and Polygon itself is even further in that direction, so it's a deliberate exaggeration in context to that. Obviously, no-one in their right mind believes Polygon is actually to the far-left. We don't see them calling out the distribution of wealth in the industry or suggestion revolution to establish equality or social stratification.

Short version; it's an exaggeration to get the point across that they're further left on the spectrum that other major players in the gaming media.
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