The state of Xbox live

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RoboticMonk3y
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The state of Xbox live

Post by RoboticMonk3y »

I've owned an xbox for over 6 years now, well truth be told, I've owned several xboxes over that time, but that's another rant for another day. For the majority of this 6 years, I've been an xbox live 'gold' member. Back in the early days of owning an xbox, it was great, I got to play games over xbox live and while you can argue that on-line gaming has been free on PC for years Xbox seemed to tie everythign up into a neat bundle for you, there was no trawling through server lists to work out how to start up a game.
Xbox game chat gave you pretty decent quality communications, about as good as you can expect for a headset that looks like it was made for pennies. It was reliable, I used to regularly meet a group of friends online and being able to hear each other was never an issue. Party chat was a really great feature as well, I could happily be sat playing peggle talking to friends playing whatever game they were using to pass away the hours.

Skip ahead to today.
I was playing halo recently, while in a party, half of the chat consisted of 'yeah, can you say that again, you broke up', or 'are you still there, I can't hear you'. When did things get so bad? It's been my understanding that the xbox live subscription goes towards services like party chat and servers to keep online gaming going, but I've already noticed a shift away form how things used to be. Battlefield 3 is a prime example, where I believe that the majority of multiplayer servers are not microsoft owned at all. The xbox dashboard is a cluttered mess of adverts and services I have no use for and can't opt out of. Party chat, and xbox chat in general seems to be more and more flaky, so what went wrong?

Anyone else have any thoughts/experiences similar to this?
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Guy_JD
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Guy_JD »

I honest can't remember last time I played online on my Xbox let alone put on a headset Xbox live has already died in my eyes, I still have a Gold subscription but the only thing that gets used for is Netflix and once it expires in the next few months I'll be going in to Silver for the first time in my 6 years of owning an Xbox360

The service really has gone downhill in my eyes and the fact the Microsoft still charges for services you get free on the PS3 just compounds my want the get rid
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NokkonWud
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by NokkonWud »

I've not had any issues with Party chat and still use that feature almost daily, but yes, the rest is bloody awful. They had that dashboard nailed on two iterations ago, it's since turned into a mess of a system which is awkward to browse around and is filled with shite you can't get rid of. Whilst I still prefer it as a front end to both 3DS and PS3, it's bloody disastrous from where it once was, and worst of all, you know there's a bunch of higher-up wankers patting themselves on the back for a job well done, more profits from advertising and not listening to a single complaint from 'the small people'. Cunts.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by DomsBeard »

I'm falling very quickly out of love with Microsoft.

I had a gaming break for a couple of years as I got disillusioned after the Dreamcast & GameCube died but when I saw Bioshock and Mass Effect in 2008 I was very intrigued to know more.

I then looked at the PS3 vs 360. The only thing the PS3 had in its favour at that point was MGS4 & Heavy Rain I'd tried a friends PS3 and the constant installing and updates were a joke. I then tried a 360 and was blown away by the easy to use dashboard and how friendly it was so I was sold. Then little updates started here and there chipping away. Fast forward now and I'm starting to regret my choice as everything about the Xbox live service is crap. The money we go us towards providing live, the companies who make the games pay for the servers (that's why we have online passes) so what are we paying for?. If we're paying £30 a year we shouldn't have adverts save them for the silver members. The dashboard is a total mess and they've buried the good stuff like indie.

But the worst part is Microsoft don't care, they want the Xbox to be a multimedia system that we use for TV/music/web browsing and us gamers who got them where they are today can do one.

They are best summed up by the whole 20MSP for your birthday debacle.

And breath! ;)
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NokkonWud
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by NokkonWud »

The "Online Passes" aren't purely for third party server costs, it's a way for Developers/Publishers to get a more constant stream of finances from the second hand market which was previously dominated by retailers. They say the average game that enters stores as part of trade-ins then flow through the second hand market at that store an average of 5 times, each time 100% of that purchase cost goes to the retailer (as well as a chunk of original sales), by including online passes it's a way for developers and publishers to rightfully take a chunk of that pie.
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Dante Fireseed
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Dante Fireseed »

I've had Xbox live since almost the beginning, I think it was June 2003 I joined and have been a member ever since, but this is the last year I'm staying gold. Once by sub runs out I'm not renewing. I very rarely play online anymore, preferring to play on PC if doing any online gaming or occasionally on PS3. The service has gone drastically downhill and the dashboard is awful and is so laggy it is beyond belief. Unless the next xbox has something new and different with its gold service beyond online play and the use of apps that I can use in other places for free, then I will not be going back and will be staying silver in the long term. PSN plus has just blown it out of the water. I hope MS up's their game for the next gen otherwise on the basis of anecdotal evidence, their subs are going to go through the floor.
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TomFum
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by TomFum »

Im sick of Xbox's service they now run to be honest.

The chat has ALWAYS been crap and its even worse now these days for some reason, private chat and party chat are so bad when ever we play online now we use Skype.

I hate the dash board now, its nothing but adverts and its filled with crap i really dont care about. I understand things need to progress but when your paying a subscription you shouldn't be forced to have adverts in everything everywhere.

I like the fact PlayStation have stuck to keeping things simple.

I like the fact that Microsoft service is still quick and the downloads are great though.

I dunno i kinda just stick to the PC now days, Xbox gets used for FIFA and thats about it.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Indiana747 »

I got an XBox a couple of years ago to join in the fun on Forza & Fifa with mates from the GD forum. It was immensly enjoyable with party chat working most of the time, but not flawless by any means(in fact though i never had a problem with comms on PS3 and it was always free).
Two years, (and one hacked account, still sore about that) later, i still love my 360 but i rarely use it(online anyway) with PS+ offering so much stuff free on top of their yearly sub it leaves Microsoft looking like the money grabbing multi billion corporation that they seem to be with no signs of changing. My sub for XBL has just expired and coincedentally enough i got a years free sub from my ISP(Vodafone package, which was nice). Yet even with the years free sub i still dont think i will put it in, i think i'l just sell it on as i think Microsoft are doing wrong by gamers, so on principle alone i cant see a reason to re-join.
I will still buy and play games for my 360 but Sony has hit it out of the park with this PS+ thing. If you told me a couple of years ago that for €40 a year that i could join a service that would give you up to 30 free games a year(Triple A titles & not shite btw) i would have laughed and said you were smoking some crazy shit. But here we are now with an amazingly good value service from Sony.
Microsoft have become so reliant on the revenue from XBL that it seems it could not possibly just get rid of it. Screwing over gamers( while not listening to their complaints) seems to be the modus operandi at MS nowadays.
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Sean
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Sean »

I'm curious to see what MS does with Live in the next console.

Surely, they'll keep the subscription service, but, what can it entail this time? Given how much I'm seeing the sentiment in this thread across gamers and critics alike, how many people would sign up for the same service with a new console?

I feel like online play has to be free next gen. Forza Horizon is the only retail game I bought this year on 360, and, the fact that having a silver account locks me out of content on the $60 disc I bought is some real horseshit. I just bought a year of Gold last night for Forza and HBO Go, so, their plan worked, and I'm a sucker, but, it still stinks.

And, that's the biggest problem when you look at the difference between PS+ and XBL Gold. Especially right now, people *want* to sign up for PS+, whereas they feel like they *have* to sign up for Gold.

It's a shame, as, the 360 and Gold are responsible for me getting into this hobby as much as I am right now. I've always played games, ever since I was a kid, but, not nearly as much as I do now, and, that's a direct result of the early years of the 360. Getting on, and, playing CoD4 every day with my friends was crazy fun.
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Indiana747
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Indiana747 »

The sentiment on this thread is one of core gamers(video game players who play wide and varied types of games). Alas, we do not represent the the majority of XBL subscribers, this mantle rests solely with the FiFa and CoD fanboys, who just play those games online only and pay their online sub every year without even thinking twice about it. The ads wouldnt bother them as they just boot up straight into the game, some probably have never even visited the store or indie games section. These people are in the millions now and are the cash cow that MS loves. XBL is catered to them, not gamers per'say.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Alex79 »

Although it's not good to hear of so many people dissatisfied with a service they pay for, in a way I'm glad a few people on here are voting with their wallets and not renewing. It's the only way Microsoft will notice that their service has been sub-par for a long time and they are getting walked over by Sony at this point. They really need to rethink Live in the next-gen if they want to stay competitive. I mean the facts speak for themselves. Sony just offer so much more value.
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RoboticMonk3y
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by RoboticMonk3y »

sadly, i think there are enough CODBLOPS squeakers to keep xbox live afloat for quite some time... :(
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magicjoef
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by magicjoef »

I have to keep Xbox live, because I play with a good friend who lives abroad and he doesn't have any other gaming machine.

Although I've only had the Xbox for 3 years, I've seen the service quality decline, and I agree they have to improve next gen. The problem I see is that Microsoft have started down a path that will make it the next version an even more horrid jumble. Number of ads will only increase if they don't have subs they are used to, and I don't trust Microsoft to hold UI design as the top priority, revenue streams will be.

On the plus side I can always connect with a friend in another country, and play stable games with him no matter what disc we stick in, so for less that £3 a month I can live with it...for now.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by JaySevenZero »

Having been a subscriber pretty much from the beginning I went Free/Silver in March of 2010 and have not returned. However, it would be a lie to say that XBL didn't have a massive impact on me though. I still remember purchasing the XBL pack for the original Xbox that came with the headset etc. and because at the time I was working nights, I waited until I finished work on the Friday morning before setting it up. I can still clearly recall putting Rainbow Six 3 in and grinning away as I played with a squad of Americans for the first time at around 6.30am and only stopped when sleep deprivation got the better of me, but from that point forward gaming was forever changed for me.

In truth though, my reason for not subscribing anymore was more to do with a game than the service. In 2007 a large group of us were all over Call of Duty 4, as so many of us were at the time. We played most evenings over the following two years and it was only when Modern Warfare 2 was released that the rot set in. Due to the changes Infinity Ward made to the game, a fair few of us started to get weary of it and after about four months and over a hundred hours on it I'd had enough. During this time I had started to play Killzone 2 online despite initially not getting on with it at launch. Although after several updates to its gameplay, I started to see its appeal. I stopped playing MW2 sometime in Feb. and the Gold sub was due for renewal in March and as I only ever really play a single prime multiplayer shooter at any one time and since the likes of Halo and Gears of War never really got their hooks into me to begin with, preferring their single players over their online play - I decided not to renew.

Initially, I was open minded and maybe to some degree I still am about going back but in truth I've hardly missed the service over the time without it. In the meantime, Sony have adapted and improved their online functionality thus far to pretty much remove the need to re-subscribe this generation altogether.

I'm absolutely no fan of Microsoft's stance on inundating the dashboard with advertisements, especially for a premium service - not to mention their perceived distancing from it being known as a games console with their constant pushing of the other media. All that said, my decision whether to rejoin will always come down to the games, if they return next generation with titles that just have to be played online, then I may well find myself going Gold once more. In the meantime I'll continue to get my online needs fulfilled by the other free services.
Sly Reflex

Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Sly Reflex »

What bugs me the most about LIVE as it stands now is how the dash is laid out. As you boot up, that page should have an option to boot disc. Every single other pane should be customisable as it is in every other MS device that uses the Metro look. When I was told I'd be able to pin stuff to the dash I was excited, I've been a Windows phone user now for a fair old time and I prefer the visual style and deliverance of the tiles over what iOS and Android are doing.

By letting you place tiles you can have everything that interests you as a gamer right there on your front page. Want the Indie games link to your front page so you can access it easier? Pin it. Want to have BBCiPlayer within reach without having to go digging for it? Pin it. Want to have Pacman CE on a tile that revolves to show you the scores of your friends so you can dive back in and reclaim to top spot. Pin it. That's how the dash should work, but it doesn't, and I'm really disappointed with it. I wouldn't mind the if adverts were actually targeted at me, but their usually just some AAA cash cow shite I wouldn't even spend time trailing in HMV. The rewards are fucking well scant as well. 20 points for my birthday? I need to be a gold sub for another 39 years before I can buy a 800 point game. Thanks MS. I feel really valued as a customer. That massive 2% rebate I'm getting off all purchases because of my gamerscore too. You are too kind. /sarcasm

I think a lot of the problems stem from the architecture the dash is running on. As I understand it, it's effectively a plug in into a plug in into a plug in? It's all stemming back to those original blades we started using in 2005, MS are effectively pushing that front end further than it can actually comfortably handle. There's only so many resources allocated to running the front end. MS keep pushing it though even though it was past breaking point a few iterations ago.

I'm not sure why people compare the LIVE sub and a PSN+ account. One you are paying for the convenience of playing online and the other you are paying to rent and subsidise certain future purchases. There's been some amazing stuff on PSN+ and if you download it all and play through it all it no doubt represents a massive bargain. For an online service I think PSN is absolute garbage, a series of trails that get in the way of me talking to friends and playing games. Nearly all of my real life friends are PS3 users and watching them organise a night online is somewhat of a comedy. You shouldn't have to send texts and be logged into skype on a nearby laptop to communicate in case someone gets nudged across to the other team in whatever game you happen to be playing. You shouldn't have to juggle menus to see and accept invites. It's a completely arse backwards set up and is something I could never see me adopting. It was one of the main reasons I never played anything multiplayer on PS3 because of that reason. I don't want to fight the system. I want to play it.

I have to hand it to Sony With PSN+, the thinking behind it is very clever. You sub because you see games you'd like, and then more games come out that keep you paying. Before you know it you've invested into something that you cannot really afford to cut because you've got so much tied up in it. It's a vicious cycle that many would find harder to break than going silver on LIVE.

I think next gen I'll be paying close attention to all this front end stuff and subscription malarky, if it doesn't go the way I'm liking I'll go back to playing games on the PC.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by JaySevenZero »

Sly Reflex wrote:For an online service I think PSN is absolute garbage, a series of trails that get in the way of me talking to friends and playing games. Nearly all of my real life friends are PS3 users and watching them organise a night online is somewhat of a comedy. You shouldn't have to send texts and be logged into skype on a nearby laptop to communicate in case someone gets nudged across to the other team in whatever game you happen to be playing. You shouldn't have to juggle menus to see and accept invites. It's a completely arse backwards set up and is something I could never see me adopting. It was one of the main reasons I never played anything multiplayer on PS3 because of that reason. I don't want to fight the system. I want to play it.
This is a bit of a fallacy these days, with developers now incorporating invite systems that are as easy and convenient as they should be. Battlefield 3 for example, requires four button presses to invite someone into your game which takes around mere seconds to operate and is about the same amount of interaction as the Xbox and certainly not what I'd call completely arse backwards. The only real difference between the systems nowadays is party chat/party system (which itself can be detrimental to some games), but I'd say that the actual voice chat audio on the PSN is clearer and more defined than the Xbox audio (the last time I used XBL was in March of this year when I used a month free card I had lying around to play Splinter Cell: Conviction co-op with TomFum) but I'm aware this could differ greatly depending what headset you use (for the record I used the official wireless headset for Xbox and the official Bluetooth headset for the PS3). Skype is something that some folks, such as the Frugals use because they choose to and is in no way a necessity with the PS3 nowadays.

I guess the comparison between the two subscriptions comes from the fact that they are the same price for the same period but that where the similarity ends. One wants you to pay predominately just to play online and is the only system to do so, the other gives you 2 full retail for free (even if they are on average between one or two years old they often are still retailing at around £15 a piece - which comes to £360 worth of software per year) of which you'll need to maintain subs in order to keep them, but what's more they give you an average of a 20% discount on most DLC and downloadable games which is permanent and not reliant on maintaining subs. Finally, a single sub covers both the PS3 and the Vita for those who own the two systems.

So, in many ways there is little to compare between the two subscription services - one seems outdated and expensive for what it offers the gamer in 2012 - the other does not.
Sly Reflex

Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Sly Reflex »

That's fine you like it. I don't, it's something Sony needs to look into when they make the leap to next gen. Not just Sony either, Both MS and Nintendo need to look into how they hadle on the online aspect of their systems.

My view comes from what I've experienced and the last few times I've played on it where we've wanted more than 1 vs 1 it has been a complete dog. Battlefield 3 was one of the games I played and it left a lot to be desired. In about 90 minutes play my group of 4 players maybe shared a squad for about 20 minutes. Having to back in and out isn't a task you want to be repeating over and over. All those extra button presses add up to frustration when something goes tits up. That's probably the biggest title I've played recently, but even the smaller ones had their fair share of problems. It's never as simple as seeing someone is playing a game you'd like to play with them and pressing 'join', having the game load up and throw you into the action.

I personally don't use Skype when playing online on PS3, I use the bluetooth headset. You're right, it is clearer, although I rarely wear it in group games because other users make it an unpleasant experience. Skype is used as a party system to bridge none game cross chat and if someone looses connection to get them back in. It's been like that even before 360 had party chat for my friends, so I'm guessing old habits die hard. I wouldn't say they are a detriment to either system, as the majority of gamers online now are complete dickheads and should be avoided at all costs. I've met my fair share on both systems. I do not want to listen to their music, their conversations going on in their rooms or the hate filled speech that will no doubt pour from their mouths.

I'm not really arguing the value for PSN+ is worth it, because it clearly is worth it. However, the games are not free, you are paying a sub to gain access to them. Nothing in life is truly free. You have no control over what is being doled out. I've no interest in playing something like Red Dead Redemption or Infamous so in some cases I wouldn't be getting full bang for my buck. I guess you have to take the rough with the smooth in those cases. PSN+ is still a great deal though, especially if you cannot afford to buy many games at retail. Getting stuff like Batman and Vanquish is very nice, and hopefully giving out free niche games like Vanquish will raise their profile a bit because people are getting them via a PSN+ sub.

I'm not really condoning what MS are doing either. I abhor the current dash, the adverts and the fact I'm paying for all these changes I don't really want. The fact that I'm looking to jump ship to PC to leave all this shit behind should speak for itself. I'm neither happy with the service that I have to pay for or the one I don't when it comes to playing online. If you gave me a multiformat game that was played online I'd take the 360 version every time as it stands now. LIVE might be going in a direction I'm not liking, but it's still a better direction than it's console competitor. It beats it, but only marginally because of the cost.

It should be interesting to see what movements the consoles manufacturers take in regards to utilising online. I fear it could be for the worst in regards of Microsoft if they continue the path they are on now.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by JaySevenZero »

Thing is, with regards to online play specifically, is there an ideal system?

I ask this because even the PC side of things has it share of issues to deal with.

Recently, and despite it being a failure in many regards, the Onlive system had some quite innovative design to its implementation of the social side of play, so much so, that there were features I'd genuinely welcome if they appeared on any of the systems - consoles in particular.
Sly Reflex

Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Sly Reflex »

I believe the front end of any system should be hard wired so that any incoming messages or invites are dealt with in the least effort possible. Messages under a certain amount of characters should just have the option to display them in the way PSN users can title their messages.

Mentioning Onlive, the thing I liked about that was being able to watch streams of other people playing. I'd love to have that on the consoles so you could watch in on 1v1 fighters and similar stuff. We know it's possible because they've already done it.

I think a front end theatre mode should be standard too, I've said this many times before, but when you play games there's so many amazing things that can happen without you having anyway to show the world unless you own a HDPVR. It also has the added bonus of filming everything you see online, so modders and hackers would have a bad time because their behaviour is being monitored. You could use messaging to send in game pictures and videos back and forth. Thing Halos Theatre mode, but on a game wide scale. Wouldn't that be fantastic?

The landscape has moved so far since we got these dashboards and online capabilities. It's time the ideas and motivation behind them moved as well.
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Re: The state of Xbox live

Post by Xantiriad »

I rather gratified to see folk expressing the same opinions on the XBL service that I've been complaining about for the past couple of years.

What started out as a means to aid discovery within the XBL Marketplace became a "revenue opportunity" that was forced on consumers at the expense of usability and functionality.

I am aware that some people "tune out" such overt and disgusting marketing; which is in itself depressing. But there really isn't an excuse for fundamentally changing a consumer product for the worse - without opt out.

I am all for "discovery" and paid for marketing within the marketplace itself. Much like the AppStore, PSN or eShop do it. But to poison the entire UI with it is inexcusable.

As for the value proposition, it's clear that Microsoft's entertainment division feel they offer enough value to warrant the subscription. Even if all the evidence and competition says otherwise. Unfortunately Xbox doesn't make Microsoft a huge amount of money (less than 2% of its revenue). They invested very heavily in the original Xbox, 360, Live and the Red Ring replacement programme. It's something like 15-20 years before the Xbox breaks even. For that reasons I don't see them softening their stance. If anything, if subscriber numbers start to drop (they are around 50%+ of all accounts and growing) they'd be more likely to up the price.

I still have Gold, and for reasons I can't fathom did renew in May. But at this point I am only likely to return to Xbox as a gaming machine for Xbox exclusives. They have lost my custom (and the $10 per game they get) for everything else.
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