All things Metal Gear (Solid)

[KSubzero1000]

Interesting post! I tend to agree. I think that the female characters in MGS are a clear case of Style vs. Substance. If you only look at their aesthetic design then yes, a lot of it is silly and juvenile. But if you dig a little deeper, then you find out that most of them are actually written as complex human beings with their own arcs and motivations. (With a few exceptions like the B&B.) EVA being a perfect example of that. I see her as this really interesting deconstruction of the typical trophy Bond girl.

(Quiet's design is cringe-worthy, though.)

Kojima may have glaring weaknesses as a writer, but I think his heart is in the right place. You don't see a character like The Boss very often. In any medium.

[arry_g]

So I finnished the last remaining story parts of MGSV today and it got me really thinking about some things especially the series relation with women and V's so i wanted to talk about it,I wont spoil anything about V just the number of female characters in the game but Im gonna be talking about all the other games female characters in detail and how I view the series in this regard,it's a bit long but I just wanted to get this out:

Spoiler: show

So MGSV has just 2 female characters in the entire game this was something that really stood out to me once I took a step back from everthing,having few girls in itself isnt a problem but I found both storylines very "schizophrenic",is the best way I can put it, this game more then any other Metal gear game is probably the worse when it comes to the women and not just because all of the sexual objectification of Quiet either, now I hear some people say that the series always had a problem depicting women and listening back to some of the Cane&Rinse shows you can see that as a comon thread of complaint on every show,the thing is I never thought that was actually true in my mind the series was always a great example of the oposite because of how many strong and more importantly interesting female characters it has,in a way that no other similar series has in terms of a mix of quality and quantity.

Now I can already hear people saying that Im just in delusion and that the series has been sexist from the start,I can even remember a tropes video where they showed Metal Gear 1 and Snake saving Madnar's daughter(ignoring that he saved a bunch of other people too but whatever),I can understand why people think that tough and it's all tied to the use of the girls as fanservice and the fact that Kojima seems like a 12 year old when it comes to sexuality sometimes,so everytime someone brings the female characters in the games they point out things like EVA's outifit in 3,the Easter eggs like Meryl sit ups in 1 and the fact that you can make Rose's boobs move in the codec in 4. Now what Im about to say might seem like a giant cop out but all of that stuff isnt important to me because of how superficial it is it's there for gags and fanservice add to that the amount of homoerotic parts in these games and I can hardly see anything sexist about it for me it ends up being just another quirk of the guy to thought of sneaking around in a cardboard box,Im not saying that if you are bothered by that stuff you're wrong and shouldnt be upset that's fine but Im saying that looking more then skin deep into these characters you see that they are actually very well realized and fit into the story very well,none of the females characters in any of the games are damsels in distress,they never get patronizing explanations from the men,they often act acording to their on motives and will and are never beneath the men in skill in many cases they are above.

So to prove my point let's list every female character in the games:
MGS- Sniper Wolf,Meryl,Naomi,Nastasha,Mei Ling
MgS2- Olga,Rose,Emma,Fortune
MGS3- The Boss,Para-Medic,EVA
MGS4- Naomi,Meryl,Big Momma,Mei Ling,Sunny,Rose
MGSPW- Amanda,Paz,cecile,strangelove

So let's see in 1 we have Sniper Wolf whose death scene is still in many people's mind one of the most emotional scenes in video game history she's a highly skilled and inteligent assassin with a great backstory,the worst thing you could say about her is that she wears a low cut shirt but that fits the type of characters she's based at and in no point this exploited in the game in any way,so no problems here.
Meryl is a character people are more quick to judge putting her as just another love interest for the protagonist but there's way more to her character then that,she's a rookie that's desilusoned with the military and goverment after joining,when she meets Snake she meet a legend that inspired her to become a soldier in the first place!So of course she's smitten with him,she also plays a big part in Snake's arc in the game but also has a arc of her own by overcoming her conflicts with the help of Snake and vice versa,she's also clearly skilled as she manages to sneak up on him twice.
Naomi is next and she's my favorite character in the game,so no wonder I think she's awesome not only she's a great geneticist her single minded goal of revenge is at the crux of the entire story I will never forget the line "You killed my benefactor and sent my brother home a cripple" and in hindsight you can see how it affects her as the events of the game unfold,it's also through her that the game delivers it's final message to the player and Snake.
Nastasha and Mei Ling are both great examples of supporting characters that are way more likeable and fleshed out then they should both are especialists in their fields and both have distinct personalities that complement the cast with Mei Ling being the naive young girl who wants everything to go right while Nastasha is way more matter of fact and is only trying to prevent nukes from falling in the hands of terrorists as this issue is very close to her personal life and past.

In MGS2 we are quickly introduced to Olga which you guessed it is my favorite character in the game,right at the start we can see how skilled she is and that she's not only a soldier but it's also pregnant and this touches one something that few games I've seen deal with which is mother-sons relationships,there are alot of dads in video games if you know what I mean and lately the latest fashion seems to be father daughter relationships(which Im sick and tired of btw) but Metal Gear is one of the few series that deal with both mother-daugther/son and father-son relations which is rare, Olga is a soldier to the point of considering her unit her family but she`s also a mother and because of that she`s manipulated and forced to play a part for the patriots and in doing that she essensially sells her unit out to protect her daughter that she didnt even meet,in the end she dies without ever getting to see her and causes the death of her comrades something she regrets dearly. So yeah nothing bad to say about her.
Rose is a little different she`s really annoying the entire game and seems to be there just to remind Raiden that he is worthless and that they have couple issues,in the end however it`s revealed that she`s actually part of the AI so I think her behavior makes a little more sense as it`s the AI just fucking with him.
Fortune is another very weird character I really couldnt care less about her "oh I cant die,im so sad!" speechs but she makes for a very good impression as a first boss for Raiden because despite her tiny life bar you cant lay a finger on her,other then that I have no idea what the twist that the power of luck was within all along meant but I think all of Dead Cell was poorly done so...
Emma on the other hand is far more straight foward it's unfortunally that she has some of the worst gameplay sections in the game but she in many ways the most important character to the plot as she both kickstarts the events in 2007 and comes up with the solution to disable the AI,her drama with Otacon comes abit suddenly but I think it works she's also one of the few fragile female characters in the games which I personally dont view as a negative but in many ways she still has more of a backbone then her brother,her death does serve to propel Otacon and Raiden stories but that also happen to the president and Peter stillman as Raiden cant save anyone.

I dont think I need to explain why the Boss is still the best female character in gaming after all these years right,she could easily been a man and still be a great character but the fact that she's a woman adds tons to her character and like I said early mother-son relationship are a rare thing in games.
Para-Medic is probably my favorite support character in the series her personality is just great and her conversations with Snake are priceless I dont think there's a single person who played Snake Eater and disliked her or the way she was portrayed.
And so you get to EVA the femme fatale of the game that spends most of the game with her top hanging off,an interesting thing about that is that during all cutscenes with her that you can press R1 Snake is looking at her boobs but in the last cutscene you can do that he's actually looking at her face! So you see character developement!It's a really dumb thing but it's also a very Kojima thing to do. But yeah everybody seems to have issue with her outfit but she is playing the part of the femme fatale in 2 ways here,not only that but she's also the oposite of one because by the end it was her playing him and he only lives because she made a promise to the Boss,I also really liked her personality and her conversations with Snake and how their relationship grew in the game and I still think the romance in here is one of the more natural I've seen in a game.

So we get to 4 where it's probably the most problematic one in this departament(Until V) Im not even gonna mention the BB unit because the way I see it they are the embodiment of fanservice so the fact that they are women is just to tie into that in my mind.

So Naomi they completely ruined her character by making her this woman that only talks about sin and is responsible for a bunch of weird nanomachine related nonsense it also doesnt help that her dialogue is terrible and half the time you can barely understand what she's trying to say(a problem in almost every character I'd say) at least she's still in control of her own life and has agency in the game it's her that calls Snake to pick her up and latter own defect to Liquid again for her own reasons that get explained at the end.
Big Momma has a similar problem because her personality is completely different from 3 and she speaks in riddles almost,I guess time will do that to you but the fact that she basically acts like a giant exposition dump and then dies is a big let down.
Mei Ling has a cameo in the game but it's cool to see her lead the ship into the final battle
Rose is there just to basically tie up her loose ends with Raiden she does little in the game but her motives and issues are well explained at least and the resolution to that story is pretty good
Sunny's arc is pretty straight foward not much to say.
Meryl in this game is great you can clearly see her evolution from 1 and how she's her own woman now and so on which only makes her marrying the joke character of the entire series more bizzarre...
It would be easy to say that the female characters were poorly utilized in 4 but you could say that about many of the male characters as well I think that game has many problems in this regard,Peace walker on the other hand greatly improves that.

Amanda is a great example,in that game she's a revolutionary that lost her icons both Che Guevara and her father are dead and she somehow has to continue to believe,lead her men and take care of her brother despite being plagued by doubts,so she finds in Snake a new icon to hold on to and throught the game she starts to turn into the leader the sandinistas need and deserve,by the end it's her that comes to Snake's rescue which closes her cycle.
Cecile is weird one because she's basically in the game because Kojima lost a bet as she's based of one of Konami PR people in France,she won and wanted to be on a metal gear game so there she is XD,so she doesnt do much other then being french but she has some fun interactions with other characters but not much there either way.
Strangelove is another character I really like her whole goal of trying to recreate the Boss through AI as well as her hatred for Snake for killing her is very well done,at first she seems very logical but we quickly see that she is probably the character that acts most out of emotion in the game,I also really like her personality and the fact that she continues the trend of Metal gear female scientists being better then the men she's way more capable then Huey for example,and also the fact that her arc and Snake's in this game being so linked is very well done.
Paz is a controversial character but I think she works very well in this game you spend the whole game thinking she's this boring character and it turns ou she pulls an Ocelot on you but not only that she actually has more layers to her when you find her diary and the inner conflict she faced,people really took issue with the date mission but I found that more funny and ridiculous then creppy especially in context and knowing there was a Miller date too,character wise I think she works perfectly but I can see why that might be undermined but her portrayal which even I will agree.

The reason I listed all of these is that even if you dont agree 100% with what Im saying you can see that each character has a purpose and many are great characters without a doubt after a first glance,this was the main reason I was so adamant in defending Kojima and wanting to wait for the game to come out to pass out judgement on Quiet's oufit and so own because once you look into these games you find these amazing qualities in writing,design and etc.Unfortunally in this particular aspect V was a major let down because I cant see the quality that was in the characters above in Phantom pain which is beyond disaponting,i cant say anymore without spoiling V but whatever Kojima goes to work on next outside Konami I hope to find more of the quality characters I listed above and less of that embarrassing shower scene in V(though It was pretty funny to have Ocelot in it though

Although I have not completed all of the story and am still working through post credit content, I do agree on most points and I find it all the more frustrating because this is a marvellous game in many other aspects. I just want to say a couple of points on the subject of Quiet, I think only a few things needed to be done to make her an overall better character a) just cover her up a little bit more, there is nothing wrong with being 'sexy' (ok, there can be a lot wrong with that if presented in certain ways, but I digress...) however, the outfit has gone a little too far (you can toss around the word 'photosynthesis' Kojima and team but The End wore clothes!), b) don't animate Quiet to stick her arse in your face in the chopper or do sexualised yoga as a reward for looking at her and c) stop having the camera focus on her arse, groin and breasts all of the time, ESPECIALLY during (spoilers):

Spoiler: show

torture!

If these things weren't the case she could be seen as a powerful, threatening and altogether mysterious character. As it stands, other characters in game DO usually treat her that way but to us she comes across as little more than an adolescent's fantasy, which is a shame.

[zen_anarchy]

No spoiler my thoughts on the game

Completed the game a couple of days ago and whilst I had a fun 60 odd hour experience I feel the game has been massively overhyped with the many 10/10 reviews in a lot of the mainstream gaming press.

The game was brilliant for the first 30 or so hours with excellent missions and story development (although to get to the story cut scenes did feel like they where making you grind to a certain extent to progress the story by having to do side ops and other less interesting missions ).

but as soon as you get to the second half of the game there is a massive drop in quality with the amount of grind needed to progress the main quest line intensified to the extent that you feel that the game is basically forcing you to do uninteresting things just to elongate the experience.

I feel that the rushed second half of the game may in some way be linked to kojima and konami's tensions and eventual parting of ways.

I also felt the story itself was not up to the usual high standards of the metal gear series with some of the voice acting actually being worse for the inclusion of Hollywood A listers ( Kiefer Sutherland) and videogame voice over talent (Troy Baker) not even coming close to the previous brilliance of David Hayter and Patric Zimmerman from previous entries in the series.

The story is ...... well the story is the usual Kojima mesh of sci fi and military conventions with a bit of the paranormal added for good measure, basically if you enjoy Kojima's other work you will enjoy the story although it is far from being one of his best works and frequently forces the player to listen to pointless tape recordings (The Hamburgers of Kazuhira Miller) along with the few hidden nuggets of real plot progression, almost all of the plot is hidden within these cassette tapes that many players new to the series may miss completely.

Overall there is a story hidden somewhere in the game it's just that to get to it you have to squeeze the game like an orange to get those last drips of story juice to even have a slight understanding of the narrative.

as a long time metal gear fan I feel this game is not a metal gear game and leaves out many of the series staples that fans such as myself expect from a Metal Gear game, epic boss battles, campy spy thriller story, and well rounded believable characters.

The game is more in my opinion Kojima's love letter to western game development designs (the Assassins Creed or Farcry series ) rather than the great final send off Metal Gear deserved.

If I was tasked with professionally reviewing this game I would have scored it as a 7/10 as the game has a great engine some great gameplay but is lacking in story, variety, and content.

[Todinho]

Although I have not completed all of the story and am still working through post credit content, I do agree on most points and I find it all the more frustrating because this is a marvellous game in many other aspects. I just want to say a couple of points on the subject of Quiet, I think only a few things needed to be done to make her an overall better character a) just cover her up a little bit more, there is nothing wrong with being 'sexy' (ok, there can be a lot wrong with that if presented in certain ways, but I digress...) however, the outfit has gone a little too far (you can toss around the word 'photosynthesis' Kojima and team but The End wore clothes!), b) don't animate Quiet to stick her arse in your face in the chopper or do sexualised yoga as a reward for looking at her and c) stop having the camera focus on her arse, groin and breasts all of the time, ESPECIALLY during (spoilers):

Spoiler: show

torture!

Man I had forgotten about that that's terrible,at some points it even seems like that game is trying to make a point about sexualization but if it was it failed miserably because it looks just as blantant tasteless fanservice.



So I've been reading alot of people's negative reactions to the game to try and understand why and most of the reasons were what I thought and while on one hand I can understand why some people were upset I cant help but feel they are missing the point tremendously,but what irks me the most is the huge uproar of fans hating this game for no good reason saying it's unfinnished or trying to convince themselfs that any of the other games had better gameplay. Zen brought some points of this so I just wanna address this:

but as soon as you get to the second half of the game there is a massive drop in quality with the amount of grind needed to progress the main quest line intensified to the extent that you feel that the game is basically forcing you to do uninteresting things just to elongate the experience.

I hear alot of people using this to say the latter half is terrible but many fans appear to not have played Peace Walker which did the exact same thing,in it's structure Phantom Pain is the same the story goes until the credits and then it starts being sparse,it's so that the gameplay can shine and you can relax and side ops and stuff until more plot unlocks, it's the same thing the difference this time is that all of your story missions arent playing hide n' seek until the true ending unlocks. You can argue that's bad on both cases but nobody made a fuss when it came to Peace Walker certainly not to this degree.

The story is ...... well the story is the usual Kojima mesh of sci fi and military conventions with a bit of the paranormal added for good measure, basically if you enjoy Kojima's other work you will enjoy the story although it is far from being one of his best works and frequently forces the player to listen to pointless tape recordings (The Hamburgers of Kazuhira Miller) along with the few hidden nuggets of real plot progression, almost all of the plot is hidden within these cassette tapes that many players new to the series may miss completely.

Overall there is a story hidden somewhere in the game it's just that to get to it you have to squeeze the game like an orange to get those last drips of story juice to even have a slight understanding of the narrative.

Another common complaint,first off the game never forces you to listen to any of the tapes it's all 100% optional all it does is mark tapes as important to the main plot IF you want a more indepth look,all the tapes do is give a more detailed explanation of the mechanics of the world,background information and more character development. This is similar to many games that do the same thing and previous Metal Gear games where the codec served a similar function,when Kojima decided to do away with the codec in 4 we got 2 hour cutscenes so instead of having that in Peace Walker he placed of the codec in tapes that you dont have to pause gameplay to listen and that arent forced upon you.At no point I felt I needed the tapes to understand what was happening but they do add alot to the story. On that note I will agree is not Kojima's strongest work,at least on face value,it's definetly a Metal Gear story with the more OTT and funny moments now reduced to gameplay only.

Speaking of which c'mon the hamburger tapes are some of the best tapes in the game having Kaz out of revenge mode for a second is great and it reminds me of some of Peace Walker tapes where they talked about Maté and other dumb stuff like that,the same as in 3 with Sigint and Para-Medic.

as a long time metal gear fan I feel this game is not a metal gear game and leaves out many of the series staples that fans such as myself expect from a Metal Gear game, epic boss battles, campy spy thriller story, and well rounded believable characters.

The game is more in my opinion Kojima's love letter to western game development designs (the Assassins Creed or Farcry series ) rather than the great final send off Metal Gear deserved.

OK so this really really annoys the shit out me this idea of "this is not a Metal gear game because X" guess what people said that 3 wasnt a Metal Gear game when i came out because it took place in the jungle but it turns out it's the best in the series by most standarts,I really hate this mindset just because something is different,especially in metal gear when all of the games are different from one another this game is the same it has the same DNA as the others especially when you get to the ending. The game has boss fights especially the final one which cant be described as anything but epic,are the bosses in this game a step down in comparison to the other games?Yes but this has been a trend in all MGS games they peaked in MGS1 and since have declined to the point they were all copies in 4 and mechs in PW. The story is not as campy this time but of course it couldnt be given the subject matter and depctions in the game and I dont know about you but Huey,Miller and Code Talker where very well rounded to me.

Hope you dont take this as me just bashing your comment Zen it's just that you broughta few things that I have been reading and that I strongly disagree with and needed to get it out sorry,to me more then anything this game seems to me like Kojima's love letter to us the fans of the series by letting us be front and center and from a creator so big many complain that he is overhyped or that he's self-agrandizing and in love with himslef this was really touching at least to me, Im just sad to see so much anger from the very fans that should be happy and not even directed at Konami but Kojima and his team,it's like seeing a parent working hard under though situations just to put food on the table only to have his kid spit at it,is the game a perfect 10/10 no even I will agree to that it has problems I wont deny but so did the other games did anyone forget the backtracking on MGS1? or the underwater escort mission in MGS2? or the Pain in 3? They game were always flawed sometimes pretty flawed but the reasons they are held in such high regard by so many is because of their qualities and I think that`s more then present in V .

[Beck]

I agree with you Zen on most of your points, well apart from the Kiefer Sutherland bit =P

I really enjoyed my time with Phantom pain, it looks amazing and there is so so much you can do. I personally found the mission select and mother base thing a bit irratating and grindy, it was reminding me of World of Warcraft and farmville and has put me off playing chapter 2. I've played all the console Metal Gear games and enjoyed them although I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan. Metal Gear Solid (PS1) is the only one which i followed the plot, the others whilst enjoyable were really difficult to follow, I enjoyed their stories but I didn't really care for them. The lack of obvious plot from Phantom Pain is a bit of an odd choice and I don't really understand what went on and I'm not sure that I want to.

There are aspects to the game that I don't think were needed such as online infilitration, combat dispatches and the motherbase leveling thing. Also I'm not sure if I've hit that age but the lack of clothes for Quiet was really bad, I felt a bit embarrased whilst using her on missions and even more embarassed when my fiancee was watching my play. Maybe it's a japanese thing, maybe it's a kojima thing but it's not cool. Luckily D Dog was an options

[zen_anarchy]

Hope you dont take this as me just bashing your comment Zen it's just that you broughta few things that I have been reading and that I strongly disagree with and needed to get it out sorry,to me more then anything this game seems to me like Kojima's love letter to us the fans of the series by letting us be front and center and from a creator so big many complain that he is overhyped or that he's self-agrandizing and in love with himslef this was really touching at least to me, Im just sad to see so much anger from the very fans that should be happy and not even directed at Konami but Kojima and his team,it's like seeing a parent working hard under though situations just to put food on the table only to have his kid spit at it,is the game a perfect 10/10 no even I will agree to that it has problems I wont deny but so did the other games did anyone forget the backtracking on MGS1? or the underwater escort mission in MGS2? or the Pain in 3? They game were always flawed sometimes pretty flawed but the reasons they are held in such high regard by so many is because of their qualities and I think that`s more then present in V .

Hey its cool man

we all have our own opinions and I respect yours and as with opinions its all subjective I think we agree more than disagree on many points regarding the game.

My only real differences being that after the first chapter I felt the game took a turn for the worse which left me with a negative feeling towards the game, if I would have stopped playing after the first chapter I would be singing its praises like most other people as a bold new direction for the metal gear series although I would still be bemoaning the lack of distinctive boss characters, even Fatman was a more interesting boss battle than anything the phantom pain delivered( I don't know maybe I just have a thing for gimmicky boss encounters).

But after completing it I came away feeling really apathetic towards the game which has never really happened to me before with a metal gear game, I even enjoyed both peace walker's post game content and metal gear 4's ridiculous cut scene bonanza ending.

I don't dislike the game it's just not one of the best games I've ever played it felt like there was too much of a box ticking exercise with in regards to how the game functioned with similar features taken from modern western third person action games.

Batman Arkham Knight had a similar way of extending play time with its annoying Riddler missions, but the phantom pain takes the annoyance of the Riddler missions and adds to it a dash of destiny's grind and progression loop mechanics.

oh and I agree I really did enjoy "The Hamburgers of Kazuhira Miller" they where about the funniest moments in the game I just highlighted it in my original post as an example of a lot for the tapes which seem to be added just because ...well you know, Kojima (wackiness) or to fill out blanks in the story.

[Todinho]

Fair enough it's funny though for me if the game had actually ended in chapter 1 I would be beyond disapointed XD

[Alex79]

Finished Peace Walker last night - absolutely loved it. It was brilliant.

[arry_g]

Finished Peace Walker last night - absolutely loved it. It was brilliant.

Just to check, finished as if in up to the credits or finished as if in the post credits content done also because I'd hate to think that anyone might miss the true climax to Peace Walker.

[JaySevenZero]

So, I actually finished MGSV yesterday - that is to say got to the third and final credit roll, (and having those mini-credits at the end of a mission and multiple credit rolls throughout the game was just plain silly) having spent 165 hours playing it over the last few weeks. And whilst I've enjoyed the actual gameplay immensely, the overall game is heavily flawed. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Chapter 2 is an uneven and unfinished mess in regards to both its structure and the narrative.

I'll put the rest of this under tags to avoid anything spoilery.

Spoiler: show

The inclusion of repeated missions in the second chapter with added conditions such as Total Stealth and Extreme reeks of padding, nothing more. I get that the game uses Peace Walker as its clearest influence, but that particular game got away with such things due to the limitations of the PSP at the time, there's no way such an excuse works with V. In addition to this, the removal of Mission 51 leads me to believe that the issues between Konami and Kojima Productions may have had a far greater impact on the game than we might have imagined, which is a shame since it renders the Eli narrative incomplete. I found this video on YouTube which goes into detail regarding the missing/cut content.



Here's the entire Mission 51 sequence as it appears in video form on the collectors edition:

As for Quiet,

I think that the female characters in MGS are a clear case of Style vs. Substance. If you only look at their aesthetic design then yes, a lot of it is silly and juvenile. But if you dig a little deeper, then you find out that most of them are actually written as complex human beings with their own arcs and motivations. (With a few exceptions like the B&B.) EVA being a perfect example of that. I see her as this really interesting deconstruction of the typical trophy Bond girl.

(Quiet's design is cringe-worthy, though.)

Kojima may have glaring weaknesses as a writer, but I think his heart is in the right place. You don't see a character like The Boss very often. In any medium.

I agree to a point, that on paper, the series' females could come across as quite intriguing but by making them look the way they do in the games with their sexualised outfits and leering camera angles etc. it undermines a lot of the agency they should have as characters. I always find it interesting that folks often refer to The Boss as an example that Kojima can create an impressive female character but the truth is that she came about more by accident since Kojima's original vision of her was for her was to always have one breast exposed, which bounced when she fired a gun. A frankly farcical idea, which would have rendered her with the same level of ridiculous objectification as every other female character in the series. This was most likely dropped at the time because it would have run into serious problems with game certification in Japan, the States and also in Europe, but as it turns out helped create what is probably one of the more memorable characters in the entire series.

Getting back to MGSV though...

Spoiler: show

...the Paz sequence are, frankly, a completely pointless inclusion, making next to no sense whatsoever, leading me to think that this was part of something bigger that hasn't made it into the game.

[Alex79]

So I've spent a lot of this year making the transition from relative Metal Gear Solid virgin to championing the series to anyone who'll listen. So far my journey has taken me through the first three main games, and now Peace Walker.

Let me start by saying, holy shit, I fucking loved this game.

At first, it seemed there were a few concessions that watered down the game play a little. You couldn't move bodies, the mission structure was surprising, and I wasn't sure what I'd think of what I had heard could be an incredibly grind-filled game. In the end, none of that mattered. I completely bought in to every aspect of the game. I enjoyed the missions and the story very much - it was just as insane as ever. Some people might argue the MGS games are far too self-aware, but that's what I love them for. When they started saying 'Kojima is God. Kojima is God' over the codec, well I did to a little laugh out loud.

The way the missions were split in to smaller, shorter sorties worked fantastically well on handheld. And whilst I wouldn't want every MGS game to be played this way I enjoyed it as a change very much. I enjoyed the extra-ops missions too, perfect for honing shooting skills or sneaking and CQC - or just even snagging more bodies in to your ever expanding squad.

The cut scenes were brilliant, the voice acting just as over the top and hammy as we've come to expect, but this is MGS through and through. A lot of people spoke of the boss battles being incredibly difficult in single player. Well co-opping wasn't an option for me so I prepared myself for the grind, which never game. Sure some bosses took two or three goes, but they never felt impossible. I played a few of the extra-ops more than once, but never so much it felt like a chore. I enjoyed them. I even enjoyed sending off the groups for the outer-ops and watching them play out like a game of Advance Wars or something.

I'm no games reviewer, but I know what I love and could ramble on about this for hours - but that probably wouldn't interest anyone really so I'll leave it with this - it's an amazing game. If you have always dismissed it as not important or not a proper MGS game you're very much mistaken. It's genuinely brilliant, in pretty much every way.

Loved it.

Finished Peace Walker last night - absolutely loved it. It was brilliant.

Just to check, finished as if in up to the credits or finished as if in the post credits content done also because I'd hate to think that anyone might miss the true climax to Peace Walker.

Haha, no, I battled that Zeke up good and proper.

[Todinho]

So, I actually finished MGSV yesterday - that is to say got to the third and final credit roll, (and having those mini-credits at the end of a mission and multiple credit rolls throughout the game was just plain silly) having spent 165 hours playing it over the last few weeks. And whilst I've enjoyed the actual gameplay immensely, the overall game is heavily flawed. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Chapter 2 is an uneven and unfinished mess in regards to both its structure and the narrative.

I'll put the rest of this under tags to avoid anything spoilery.

Spoiler: show

The inclusion of repeated missions in the second chapter with added conditions such as Total Stealth and Extreme reeks of padding, nothing more. I get that the game uses Peace Walker as its clearest influence, but that particular game got away with such things due to the limitations of the PSP at the time, there's no way such an excuse works with V. In addition to this, the removal of Mission 51 leads me to believe that the issues between Konami and Kojima Productions may have had a far greater impact on the game than we might have imagined, which is a shame since it renders the Eli narrative incomplete. I found this video on YouTube which goes into detail regarding the missing/cut content.



Here's the entire Mission 51 sequence as it appears in video form on the collectors edition:

[/spoiler]

I really dont understand what great unfinnished mess people see chapter 2 as because other then the very obvious plot thread that's forgotten I cant really think of anything that got left unresolved much less having so much stuff for an entire third chapter,maybe a better lead up to the final mission maybe, so I dont see it is "unfinnished" the game has cut content like every game. Also the game follows Peace Walker's structure to a tee in that the main plot ends and then you get extra story stuff while you keep playing the game,for me it was fine when peace Walker did it not because I was cutting it slack for being a PSP game but because I really liked playing it just like MGSV,I dont know maybe it's just me but this didnt bother me at all because I just wanted to play more of the game anyway.

I agree to a point, that on paper, the series' females could come across as quite intriguing but by making them look the way they do in the games with their sexualised outfits and leering camera angles etc. it undermines a lot of the agency they should have as characters. I always find it interesting that folks often refer to The Boss as an example that Kojima can create an impressive female character but the truth is that she came about more by accident since Kojima's original vision of her was for her was to always have one breast exposed, which bounced when she fired a gun. A frankly farcical idea, which would have rendered her with the same level of ridiculous objectification as every other female character in the series. This was most likely dropped at the time because it would have run into serious problems with game certification in Japan, the States and also in Europe, but as it turns out helped create what is probably one of the more memorable characters in the entire series.

I also dont understand why people only talk about the Boss when it comes to great female characters in this series like I said before every game has then and they are not sexualized Naomi in MGS1,Olga in 2,strangelove in PW. The Boss isnt the exception or the fluke the proves the rule she's a part of a list. I also never understood why a character being sexualized somehow robs them of agency or something I dont think anyone would argue that say Vamp is robbed of agency because he dresses like an exotic dancer or Bayonetta,how they act is far more important in my mind and that's why I have problems with Quiet. I dont know maybe Im too used to anime and stuff and this type of thing doesnt bother me anymore.

Getting back to MGSV though...

Spoiler: show

...the Paz sequence are, frankly, a completely pointless inclusion, making next to no sense whatsoever, leading me to think that this was part of something bigger that hasn't made it into the game.

Really because I thought that was actually one of the strongest parts of the game

Spoiler: show

It really hits home one of the main themes of the game which is the phantom pain, the medic is suffering a great amount of guilty for failing to save Paz and created this phantom to pretend he did and that's all fine,Paz also symbolized peace for the people at MSF it was this pure student who just wanted peace living among these soldiers who's job is killing,in the end though she's not real she's nothing but an ilusion Paz is dead and there's no going back,but it also hits home that everyone in MSF and Diamond Dogs are terrible people that kill for a living so the peace she brought them when she was alive was an hypocritical one and this ties really well with What Huey says when the men are about to lynch him. All characters in the game are trying to claim or reclaim something but all of them fail Miller cant make his pain stop even after killing SkullFace,Code Talker cant achieve his goals to preserve the Navajo,Huey cant escape from his actions,even skullface cant achieve his goals of revenge and dies unfullfilled.

[KSubzero1000]

I dont see it is "unfinnished" the game has cut content like every game.

That is true, but not every game is being directed by someone known for his perfectionism, sometimes to an absurd degree. Not every game is part of a series of incredibly well-rounded entries, not every game was being described as the ultimate evolution of said series, and not every game was being granted a five (!) years development period only to be rushed out soon after the kind of massive internal conflict that apparently took place at Konami. Anything beyond that is mostly speculation, but I think these are the reasons why the removal of some of the planned content seems to stick out like such a sore thumb. Here's a short list of some of the most important content I could find after a quick search. I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

Spoiler: show

-First and most important: Some early previews mentioned that they were going to be four main hub areas, instead of the two present in the final game. Some of the cardboard box designs and the recording of snow-related sound effects seem to confirm this.
-Kojima himself confirmed in an interview that players would be able to return to Camp Omega in TPP, as shown in the E3 2013 trailer. Not present in the final game.
-Speaking of trailers, they were also more scenes taking place in Africa (the vulture in the burned village and the training of the child soldiers). Leaving many, myself included, to assume that there was going to be a stronger narrative focus during the second half of chapter one. In fact, there is actually very little happening there aside from Code Talker and Eli as of now.
-There is a lot of build-up concerning the Battle Gear that ultimately leads nowhere. I think one of the strategy guides confirms that it was cut. So why leave all the previous dialogue in?
-A lot of planned costumes were cut.
-A third chapter called "Peace" was in production at some point.
-And of course, there is the whole Chapter 51 thing.

The game does feel unfinished in retrospect. More so than any other game in the series, at least. I can't imagine, given Kojima's usual perfectionism, that he would plan all of this and then just throw it out the window at the last minute. I can only theorize that the production was getting too expensive and taking too much time for the executives at Konami. Maybe it was the reason for the conflict? Konami felt it was good enough to ship out and cash in, Kojima wanted more time and money to fulfill his vision, things escalated and he got fired. Seems fairly believable to me.

Edit: Oh and another thing: Given their usual polish, it seems almost impossible for me to imagine any of the previous games to have been shipped out with potential fail states that would have needed to be patched out, like the whole thing with the Quiet glitch. That's something that I would expect from UbiSoft or Bethesda, but not KojiPro.

-

Regarding The Boss: Yes, it's probably for the best that her character design turned out the way it did!

The reason why I brought her up is because she dominates the narrative of the game she appears in in a way that Naomi or Olga don't do. She is the main force to be reckoned with, instead of being relegated to a supporting role. She bests Snake in combat, she imparts her wisdom on both the player and the protagonist, and she is the source of the emotional punch at the end. That is not to say that she is the only well-realised female character in the series, of course.

Also, the problem with certain character design is less sexualization and more objectification. Vamp isn't objectified. Bayonetta certainly is, but it's a refuge in audacity-type thing. Her design is so over-the-top and the game is so tongue-in-cheek about it that it becomes a lot less problematic, in my opinion.

-

Regarding the subplot in MGSV you gentlemen were discussing:

Spoiler: show

Have you played through to the end of the Paz storyline, Jay? Because I have to agree with Todinho on this one in that it was very well done and I liked the subtle and poetic way it dealt with Venom Snake's guilt. The music and imagery at the end almost felt like something out of the early Silent Hill games. But I also found myself wondering what the point of it all was before that. If anything, I would have liked to have seen more of that kind of thing over the course of the game.

[Flabyo]

It's come up before, but the reason Bayonetta works is because she herself is far more self aware as a character. Yes, she's objectified. But she knows she is, and she's using that. It's almost a subversion of the tropes.

[JaySevenZero]

Also, the problem with certain character design is less sexualization and more objectification. Vamp isn't objectified. Bayonetta certainly is, but it's a refuge in audacity-type thing. Her design is so over-the-top and the game is so tongue-in-cheek about it that it becomes a lot less problematic, in my opinion.]

No, you're right, it was remiss of me to use the term 'sexualisation'.

Regarding...

Spoiler: show

...Paz, yes, I played through to the end of that sequence but felt, as the video did, that it was out of place and may have originally been part of something bigger (Chapter 3 being subtitled Peace an' all). I personally found it confusing since I wondered that if it was only going on inside his head why was there also interaction with Miller and Ocelot within a couple of those scenes? It just felt like it had been cut down to fit the game as it was rather than completed.

In many ways, this game feels a lot like Destiny to me, a big expensive, eagerly anticipated game that somehow fell afoul of publisher interference. Whilst it's amazing on so many levels and actually fun to play, it feels like it could (perhaps should) have been so much more.

[KSubzero1000]

In many ways, this game feels a lot like Destiny to me, a big expensive, eagerly anticipated game that somehow fell afoul of publisher interference. Whilst it's amazing on so many levels and actually fun to play, it feels like it could (perhaps should) have been so much more.

While I haven't played Destiny, this is pretty much the way I feel about MGSV as a whole. I did put upwards of 180 hours into it, so it definitely does a lot of things right. The core mechanics are fantastic. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it has the best gameplay mechanics of any open world game I know of, hands down. Those mechanics aren't as well put to use as they could have been, however, given the repetitive mission objectives and disappointing boss fights and general encounter design. But based on that alone, I would definitely recommend this game to anyone who is even remotely interested in either the stealth genre or who wants to experience a different, more mechanically-oriented take on the open world formula.

Another strength of the game I don't see mentioned very often is the cutscene direction and general cinematography. Maybe it's because I'm a film buff and pay attention to that sort of things, but I loved the use of carefully planned long takes and sound design. I can tell that a lot of work went into making them. I also don't really understand the criticism aimed at the quality of the voice acting. I thought it was perfectly fine most of the time, with a lot less cringe-worthy moments than in past MGS games.

And yet, despite all the enjoyment I had experimenting with those great mechanics, this game left me with an almost crushing feeling of disappointment. Which may sound weird at first. But that's because the stuff I wanted from the game simply wasn't there. The plot. The lore. The character arcs. The themes. The great use of music, even. The stuff that made me such a fan of the series in the first place. The stuff the trailers and interviews promised. The stuff I feel like I've been waiting for ever since MGS3. Why? We may never know. Perhaps we'll learn more about what went on behind the scenes as time goes on. What I certainly don't expect is for Kojima to come out and claim that the final product matches his initial vision. Too many rough edges, too much left unresolved. The more time goes by and the more I think about the story, the less I like it. And that's never a good sign.

I also realize that the game sort of seems like an anti-MGS4 in many regards. I, like many other fans, am also somewhat disappointed in MGS4 and the unrefined way it tries to explain everything in the most verbose way possible. I don't think of MGS4 as a classic, or at least not as being on the same level as its predecessors. But MGS4 also has some of the best character moments in the entire series which make me feel all giddy inside, even on repeated playthroughs. MGS4 has some fantastic boss fights. MGS4 makes a great use of its soundtrack. MGS4 still has a lot of the same quirky energy and strong sense of identity that define the first three games.

But MGSV? After all is said and done, all that remains is just a vague feeling of emptiness. Yes, it definitely should have been so much more. And that is not the note I wanted this series to end on.

[Todinho]

What bothers me the most about the whole "unfinnished" argument is that even though it was obvious the game was planned to have more content,what we got doesnt feel incomplete other then maybe that one plot thread that was obviously supposed to be in the game and got cut by Konami,maybe Im alone in this but I didnt came off sad or disapointed because I felt the game had acomplished what it set out to do, there's this really good video of Superbunnyhop talking about the game in detail:



And While I agree with most of his analysis of the game I dont agree with how it made me feel,it may not have been what we "wanted" but from where Im standing it's the perfect goodbye to a 28 years old series and wrap up of everything,many dont feel that way and I can kinda of understand why but here's the thing:
(spoilers for V)

Spoiler: show

I never wanted a game where Big Boss "turned into a villain" I always found that idea stupid especially when the trailers began to appear painting that Big Boss would go evil in a revenge filled story,I never liked that you know why because you dont need that,his "fall" is at the end of Snake Eater when that game ends you understand perfectly why that man will lead Outer Heaven and why it's not as simple as "he's the bad guy now" and that's something Metal Gear has always been good at and 3 made a corny villain of the 80's have more depth then most villains have nowadays,not only that but in Peace Walker,that was supposed to be MGS5, we already build Outer Heaven it's not in the same place geographically as the one of 1995 but the principle is the same,I think it was really smart of Kojima to make us do the same thing in V but adding a twist to it so as to have more purpose then us just building it again,there's people mad that we dont get to see the "closing of the circle" or that we where robbed of seeing Big Boss building that Outer Heaven but I want to ask us having the anwsers to everything really good?The game ends with a quote "there's no truth only interpretations" and I think is much better some things being left for us to wonder then them being explained,is the series really better with us knowing that Vamp actually had nanomachines or who the patriots were? MGS2 was made in a way that no follow up was possible Kojima said this himself the ending and whole game was made to make the player think and reach his own conclusions it never mattered who the patriots were but people werent happey and demanded more and we got MGS4 that went to anwser everything we wanted in a fanservice cutscene heavy hollywood finale,even though I like MGS4 I respect MGSV a hell of alot more because it didnt go for that. However even if the game was more concerned with it's meta narrative then it's actual plot it still managed to wrap up some important points in the lore that needed to be fleshed out especially Big Boss relation with Zero something we never see outside Snake Eater and to go from that to 4 was quite a leap.

Storywise while not the strongest game because even though I loved Skullface moments on screen(he's very teatrical I really liked that) he's barely on screen and his best moments are on tape,not only that but Peace Walker did a much better job in keeping you invested in the story because you were always one step behind of Peace Walker and it really felt like a race against time while in this one you dont have any urgency not only that but no all story missions actually further the story so it's also hard to get super invested but I think the parasite stuff is some of the best concepts Kojima came up with in the series and it perfectly fits into the themes of comunication this game has,some people mock it because now parasites are the anwser to everthing but hey "nanomachines son" also i really liked the idea of languages or rather ideas spreading like a virus I think it's really good and it perfectly ties in with the themes of MGS2 and 4. Also on side note I think people are really underestimanting Troy Baker as Ocelot because while not as OTT as the other incarnations I think he managed to capture really well an Ocelot in the mid point of 3 and 1 and that's something I just noticed while replaying some missions and hearing how he speaks and acts it is a shame though that he's mostly used as an exposition plataform in the tapes.

I feel I kinda rambled there for a bit but I think much like MGS2 people's feelings are biased because of their expectations and that's unavoidable but I wonder how people will look back on this one a couple of years onwards along with the rest of the series, I feel it will never be as the turn around of MGS2 because there's people who will always say it was unfinnished but I think people will look back more fondly then they are now,that's what I hope for anyway because I cant imagine nothing more sad then the message of this game ending leaving a legacy of anger and disapontiment in the fans it was meant for.

[arry_g]

Hmmm... haven't watched the video (because I've not finished the game) but have read the title atop of it and my interest is piqued considering points I made earlier.

[JaySevenZero]

Well, after spending 170 hours playing it, I've wiped my save and started again. I've done this mainly because of one thing in particular...

Spoiler: show

...I bloody hated losing Quiet as a buddy, I found her by far the most useful whether and wanting to go back and re-do missions in order to complete the objectives was a pain in some cases since I'd used here the first time through. I get why this had to happen within the game, but I gotta say it was a right royal pain when I realised she'd literally gone for good. So, off we go again!

[Todinho]

So I just saw this on the Metal Gear Reddit from user: "TiedHandsInThailand" and thought it was brillant I think it nails some very important things about this game,it's particulary about the common point me,Ksubzero and Jay were talking about in V also Arry I recommend reading this once you're done with the game:

Spoiler: show

For Context this user suffers from PTSD

TiedHandsInThailand:

"It's portrayed so well with the Paz scenes. Despite them being hallucinations that's what it's like to live daily with it. You constantly see the thing that hurts the most. The person you couldn't save who you watched die. I'm in pretty much the same boat as big boss. It hurts all day and it's numbing to see things that hurt you so bad over and over again daily. But apart from the condition itself I wanted to talk about how paz's last tape has already almost changed me as a person. I've played these games all my life and they've helped me through a lot. When I didn't have a family I had big boss to be a father figure for me. I had ocelot to be a brother of mine. I had The Boss be a mother to me. All metaphorically of course. But anyways Paz's last tape felt like this series entire existence speaking directly to me. Telling me my pain will always be here with me every day. But I can move on and grow stronger and better. I can be okay and make it without metal gear. I can be my own big boss. It's led me to feel like this game isn't for fans. Or for gamers. It's for broken people who fell in love with this game as children who need to finally be pushed out of the nest. And it feels like I have. After all these moments reminding me of my own life. Being abandoned, seeing the only people I've ever loved die, losing everyone and everything I had all due to one person. It doesn't even feel like a game it feels like a letter to me. If you knew me you'd understand why I'm saying that. You most likely don't. But that's okay. This is for me. I don't need people to understand.

What has metal gear done for you? What is it to you? Has it changed you? Helped you?

I don't feel as scared as I once did knowing if the diamond dogs can hold their rifles in missing arms. Then I can go on in life with my missing mind. Knowing that snake won't let me end as ashes. A way I've felt for half a decade now. This game gave me hope again. And if you know anything about this condition you'd know that something like that is almost impossible even through therapy."

I wish people would write more articles about this,but I guess it wouldnt get you clicks