Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

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JaySevenZero
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Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by JaySevenZero » October 16th, 2017, 11:12 am

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“Heaven condemned me, and hell deceived me. Now, it’s time to teach them both a lesson.”

Autumn 2014 saw PlatinumGames’ Bayonetta 2 arrive as a Wii U exclusive, reviewed well and showcased the Japanese developer’s talents for creating mind boggling set-pieces, deeply technical combat and naked ladies summoning hair demons. Leon, Leah, Michiel and special guest – hardcore Bayonetta player and superfan Yoshesque (@yoshesque) – discuss the game in both its own right and as a sequel to the much-lauded 2009 original. As usual we also hear from the Cane and Rinse community, which is divided as to whether Bayo 2 is an improvement upon, or a step back from the Hideki Kamiya-directed predecessor.

Music used in this issue:

1. The Legend of Aesir by Hiroshi Yamaguchi
2. Tomorrow is Mine by Hiroshi Yamaguchi and Vocals by Keeley Bumford

Cane and Rinse 290 was edited by Ryan Hamann.

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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by KSubzero1000 » October 17th, 2017, 10:24 am

Good episode! I enjoyed the insightful mechanical discussions and I think that this issue really profited from the variety of perspectives / skill levels of the speakers. Yoshesque was laying it on a bit thick with the pro-Bayonetta 1 bias at times, but hardcore fans do indeed make the harshest critics and I would probably be just as bitter if asked about games that I consider to be unworthy successors to previous classics.

It also made me think that I may very well be less enthusiastic about the game if I had dug any deeper into the original's mechanical intricacies. I suppose you can't have both, though!


PS: I'm also going to take the opportunity to thank Jay, Ryan, Sean and all the other editors for the great work they so consistently put into the podcasts. It's a thankless yet essential job, and one that flies under the radar very often. Keep it up!

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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by ratsoalbion » October 17th, 2017, 10:45 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
October 17th, 2017, 10:24 am
Good episode! I enjoyed the insightful mechanical discussions and I think that this issue really profited from the variety of perspectives / skill levels of the speakers. Yoshesque was laying it on a bit thick with the pro-Bayonetta 1 bias at times, but hardcore fans do indeed make the harshest critics and I would probably be just as bitter if asked about games that I consider to be unworthy successors to previous classics.

It also made me think that I may very well be less enthusiastic about the game if I had dug any deeper into the original's mechanical intricacies. I suppose you can't have both, though!


PS: I'm also going to take the opportunity to thank Jay, Ryan, Sean and all the other editors for the great work they so consistently put into the podcasts. It's a thankless yet essential job, and one that flies under the radar very often. Keep it up!
Thanks for the feedback and very well said about the role and efforts of our wonderful editors.
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by Suits » October 17th, 2017, 5:09 pm

Let be known - I came for the Hair Dragons !!

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by seansthomas » October 17th, 2017, 6:00 pm

KSubzero1000 wrote:
October 17th, 2017, 10:24 am
Good episode! I enjoyed the insightful mechanical discussions and I think that this issue really profited from the variety of perspectives / skill levels of the speakers. Yoshesque was laying it on a bit thick with the pro-Bayonetta 1 bias at times, but hardcore fans do indeed make the harshest critics and I would probably be just as bitter if asked about games that I consider to be unworthy successors to previous classics.

It also made me think that I may very well be less enthusiastic about the game if I had dug any deeper into the original's mechanical intricacies. I suppose you can't have both, though!


PS: I'm also going to take the opportunity to thank Jay, Ryan, Sean and all the other editors for the great work they so consistently put into the podcasts. It's a thankless yet essential job, and one that flies under the radar very often. Keep it up!
How weird. Literally thought the same two things about this weeks podcast. Noticed the well paced, swift edits this week and also appreciated the expert view on this game, even if it DID totally make my post sound like it had been written by a 'total noob'.

I've played both games to completion thrice over, so it's interesting that I didn't notice so many of the things Yoshesque (or even the regular team)pointed out. I did feel the original got better with repeated plays however, whilst the sequel's faults became more and more apparent with subsequent playthroughs, so maybe I'd have gotten there in a bit.

I just played them for the spectacle and in bursts rather than for the high scores, so I guess my success criteria are different too...

I do believe several things influence my judgement on this game a bit, alongside Bayonetta's superior hair styling: the heightened vibrant colour palette (the original is so drab at times), the Nintendo touches, the brilliant Lumen Sage battles and the opening level, which for me is the most memorable opening stage of any game I've ever played alongside the Dam in Goldeneye. Take those out and... yeah... somewhat diminishing returns elsewhere I guess.

But hell, I still think it's a great game. And if you put a gun to my head and said keep one or the other, I'd take the sequel.
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by Sean » October 18th, 2017, 2:56 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
October 17th, 2017, 10:24 am
PS: I'm also going to take the opportunity to thank Jay, Ryan, Sean and all the other editors for the great work they so consistently put into the podcasts. It's a thankless yet essential job, and one that flies under the radar very often. Keep it up!
Thanks!
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by Michiel K » October 19th, 2017, 1:16 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
October 17th, 2017, 10:24 am
Yoshesque was laying it on a bit thick with the pro-Bayonetta 1 bias at times, but hardcore fans do indeed make the harshest critics and I would probably be just as bitter if asked about games that I consider to be unworthy successors to previous classics.
Right.

It was vital to have her on here as Bayo 2 is a better presented package than the first game and perhaps more enjoyable on a surface level. She was able to put the finger on the sore spots and add tremendously to the conversation.

Let's get you on (Itagaki's) Ninja Gaiden II episode! :)

Thanks for the kind feedback, everyone!
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by KSubzero1000 » October 19th, 2017, 8:36 am

Michiel K wrote:
October 19th, 2017, 1:16 am
It was vital to have her on here as Bayo 2 is a better presented package than the first game and perhaps more enjoyable on a surface level. She was able to put the finger on the sore spots and add tremendously to the conversation.
Oh yes, I definitely agree with that.

Michiel K wrote:
October 19th, 2017, 1:16 am
Let's get you on (Itagaki's) Ninja Gaiden II episode! :)
Ha! Well, I kinda like NG II, warts and all. It's games like FE Awakening and RE5 that would have me rambling constantly about how incredibly inferior they are by comparison. So yeah, I completely understands where Yoshesque is coming from.

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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by Scrustle » October 22nd, 2017, 12:59 pm

Great episode. I did appreciate the input from Yoshesque as a more knowledgeable player. I've heard a lot of people talk about how they took out/ruined various mechanics in this game, but frustratingly never explained what they were talking about. While I can see the reasoning behind those criticisms, they seem far less than the game-crushing problems I've seen people present them as before.

I really wanted to contribute to this episode myself, but I never got around to it. Tried a couple of times to sit down and write out my thoughts, but I never felt like I could organise them well enough to do the game justice. I'm a massive fan, obviously. Somewhere in the moderate level of investment. Put about 50 hours in to the game, and starting trying to take the game seriously on a high level, but could never break in to it. I was also intending on trying to break through that barrier again in preparation for this episode, but again, I couldn't do it. By then I'd spent too long away from it and I would have needed to work my way up all over from scratch. But anyway, I still love the game. I'm a big fan of the original too, but I prefer this sequel. I love the new weapons, how much more colourful and visually imaginative it was compared to the first (although that one was definitely far from lacking in those elements), and the smoothed out controls made everything flow just so much better for me. Despite the talk of the weird quirks about launching enemies on the podcast, one thing I've always appreciated is how much more functional the launching attacks are in this game. Being the jump>punch/jump>kick moves. Overall though, a fantastic experience. One of the highest points in my whole time playing games. Even a strong contender for greatest game of all time.
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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by SnakeyDave » October 23rd, 2017, 12:01 pm

Loved the show, particularly the contributions from Yoshesque, who articulated some of Bayonetta 2's granular failings, which as a mediocre player I couldn't identify, but potentially contributed to my somewhat muted response to the game.

I adored the first Bayonetta. After getting it from Lovefilm and playing for 20 minutes, I knew it was something special, and immediately bought it online. It remains, along with DMC3, at the peak of its genre for me.

Bayonetta 2 didn't really disappoint me much on first playing it. There's enough sparkle and bombast throughout that I enjoyed it, despite a few minor niggles. What really surprised me was that I had very little desire to go back and play it again. Where in the first, I wanted to buy all the moves, costumes, and items, and up my ranks, with Bayonetta 2 I had a few half-hearted level replays but dropped it quickly.

It feels a little churlish to criticise a game I enjoyed more or less all the way through, but in the context of the first game, Bayonetta 2 felt it was missing something important.

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Re: Bayonetta 2 - Cane and Rinse 290

Post by Michiel K » October 28th, 2017, 10:34 am

Yeah, you'd want a sequel to blow the predecessor out of the water. To be fair, it was always going to be difficult to eclipse the first game and in places Bayonetta 2 goes through some lenghts to do just that. It's just easy to see where they dropped the ball in terms of the game's system and overall combat design. For me it was Umbran Climax that took the more tactical element of score focused playing off the game.
Scrustle wrote:
October 22nd, 2017, 12:59 pm
I've heard a lot of people talk about how they took out/ruined various mechanics in this game, but frustratingly never explained what they were talking about. While I can see the reasoning behind those criticisms, they seem far less than the game-crushing problems I've seen people present them as before.
Right. Here are some of the mechanical changes a befriended high level player who shall not be named told me about, which I didn't specify in the podcast (sorry):

- You can cancel the Beast Within too early. This ruins the tangible sense you usually get when you are Beast Offsetting. You're now forced to purposely slow down your inputs here to let the system keep up.

- Jump now deletes your inputs. So you can't Jump Cancel the Heel Stomp and Tetsuzanko any more, all that good execution you've built in the first game is irrelevant. The only way to make this work is to disable the After Burner Kick and her new rising punch move.

- When you get Bat Within you can spin the analogue stick and rapidly tap dodge and become pretty much invincible. Bat Within now has no rules or boundaries, you can spam dodge inputs as many times as you like and it just happens on its own.


So yeah, as I said in the podcast (twice, LOL), these kinds of changes are just weird as they really don't do anything to make the combat more accessible.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
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