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Stanshall
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Stanshall »

I've been kind of reluctant to comment too much here, lest it read as sycophantic but I would describe C&R as my most awaited media each week. I have been very happy to increase my meagre financial contributions to a fiver because I pay more each month for an Audible subscription which I arguably listen to less.

I really would love twice the output but I appreciate that it's very tough to crowdfund and can take a good while to build momentum. I'm not giving advice here but it does seem that those who do manage to do so are pretty regular with their requests for funding. I'm thinking of the Duckfeed network, for example, or Tom Scharpling and the Best Show.

Interesting (and a bit disappointing) to hear that you suspect you'll not quite raise what you're hoping for, Leon, but whatever the end result, I just want to acknowledge the enjoyment, stimulation and sometimes inspiration which Cane and Rinse has brought me over the past few years.

I wonder - when acknowledging the approach of the podcasts mentioned above - whether you would be up for annual fundraising activities to generate traffic? Sponsored streams or competitions, etc. I'm not throwing these out from the perspective that you've not considered these but rather that it's something I would very happily get behind.
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ratsoalbion
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Thank you, Stanshall. We appreciate your positive words.

As you say, we are only asking (not demanding) for people to consider around £9/$12 per year for what currently amounts to at least 150 hours worth of entertainment, which I don't think is unreasonable, and wouldn't really even if we were a decent but run of the mill 'watcha been playing' type show.

Camille, to address two of your points:

1. We absolutely do consider the differences between 'clearing'/'beating' different games and how best to approach different types of games.

We put as much time into each title that we cover as we are willing and/or able. This hasn't changed.

Even if the show continues to get more funding from the community, that will not change.

We would need to raise many times more than $3000 to be able to consider paying our panel contributors (as much as I'd like to).

However, as I say, if I myself am able to 'get paid' by Cane and Rinse, I could focus more on securing specialist contributors.


2. You're right that a particular show might be entertaining 5, 10 years down the line. However, when we are critiquing how enjoyable a game is to us in the context of 'the now', our position may or may not change on that.

For example, we covered Resident Evil 4 when it was about 6 years old, but another 6 years down the line our expectations and the state of the art may have moved on to the point that we don't feel as positively disposed toward it as we did then.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Sean »

KSubzero1000 wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 2:28 pm I guess what I'm criticizing here is less your lack of thoroughness, and more the widespread cultural notion of adopting the established consumption norms of other, more rigid, non-interactive forms of media like literature and cinema. These are in my eyes more often than not arbitrary and misleading when it comes to video games. And that in turn pushes developers away from dense, short, highly replayable concepts and towards massive open-world, shallow, filler collectathon design.
Want to chime in here and say this is definitely an interesting subject that has been a struggle from time to time. It's almost impossible to answer, really, because it can vary so much from game to game.

Ultimately, (and I speak only for myself here) although we try to approach games with a more academic feel than most podcasts, I think we're still focusing more on giving our opinion on a game, more so than a complete list of all the things in the game, if that makes sense. I do think there are issues of the podcast that would have benefited more if it leaned more on the content than the experience, and vice versa, but, that's just how some of them played out. And hopefully, with more time for hosts to prepare, we can have more balanced podcasts in the future.

So, while our experiences might not be the most ideal experience intended by the developer and enjoyed by superfans, I feel like our experience and reviews are still valid, because at the end of the day, we do all complete these games at least once. We might not fully "Cane and Rinse" em all, and I'm sure we'll still get some who disagree with our assessments, but I personally feel at least one playthrough is required, and, I would argue that most of the time, playing to the credits is considered one playthrough.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Thanks Sean, that's exactly it.

We play what we can, and want to, and each of our opinions and experiences will reflect that of someone else who has played the game.

Where possible we will have different experiences and opinions among the panel but this may not always be the case, or even possible to know ahead of time due to planning everything so far in advance.

As we said in the wake of your NG criticism Camille, we are unlikely to ever know or care as much as the superfans of any particular game (and pretty much every game has them), though we will try to garner some insight as to as where such devotion comes from.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Also, and I have said this before, the name 'Cane and Rinse' refers to the medium as a whole and my/our desire to play everything, all of the time. It doesn't specifically refer to individual titles.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by KSubzero1000 »

ratsoalbion wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 4:47 pm Also, and I have said this before, the 'Cane and Rinse' refers to the medium as a whole and my/our desire to play everything, all of the time. It doesn't specifically refer to individual titles.
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

I think I may have come across as somewhat combative in my previous post. Just to clarify, that wasn't my intention. I just tried to answer Leon's inquiry as to whether or not anyone else felt similarly to Drew.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Stanshall »

It's a tricky one. If I want a comprehensively in-depth examination of a particular all-time fave of mine, I have to consider two things:

a) That doesn't necessarily make for a good listen for non-superfans.

b) Some games have a significantly larger following and wider panel of experts to choose from.

I look at, say, the recent Bloodborne episode and I think, well, I could have personally done a ten-hour monologue on that game and still only covered a fraction of what there is to say about the game. Bonfireside Chat did two episodes per area, including community feedback and questions, and a few specials, with coverage spanning months. Should Cane and Rinse be aiming for a similar level of depth, breadth and detail in two hours? It's obviously impossible, and yet I really enjoyed the episode, despite the fact that it was obviously quite 'shallow' relative to the Bonfireside Chat take.

The consistency of approach and the variety of of contributors is what I find engaging, and having Leon as a 'beginner' is part of what made that episode. If you think back to the Dark Souls or Dark Souls 2 episodes, you had much more of a panel of 'experts', and I really love those shows, but I doubt they're as appealing to someone who isn't as obsessed about those games as I am.

Err, anyway, please move this if you think too off-topic.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Camille - not at all, and I hope you took my response in kind.

Stanshall - this is absolutely an appropriate place for such discussions.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Michiel K »

KSubzero1000 wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 2:28 pm On the other hand, I understand that time and motivation are important factors, but I have to admit that in regards to the recent Ninja Gaiden issue for example, I did find myself thinking "You guys can find the time to play through The Witcher 3 plus DLC, but playing through this 2 or 3 times in a fraction of the same timespan is too much to ask?
Interesting point. I had to give this some thought and I think we have to realise that replaying games on different difficulties is not for everyone, especially not in quick succession. For you and me, replaying Ninja Gaiden on a higher difficulty makes for a substantially different experience, if only because you drastically have to rethink and readjust your tactics in combat, but a lot of other people will be put off going through the exact same areas again, watching the same cutscenes and having to do some of the more frustrating platforming sections again. It's probably especially unappealing if you didn't quite love the game the first time around.

I haven't played the Witcher III yet, but I imagine that over the time span of one lengthy playthrough, there is something completely new to see and experience around every corner.

Also, ideally, we would have had someone on who had already done multiple Ninja Gaiden playthroughs in the past. That type of situation is when any CaR episode really shines, I think. Unfortunately, it was a full first playthrough for all of us, this time around, and none of the veteran players we knew were willing to contribute (and we didn't know you would have been willing to step in). :(
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Michiel K
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Michiel K »

Sean wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 4:23 pm Ultimately, (and I speak only for myself here) although we try to approach games with a more academic feel than most podcasts, I think we're still focusing more on giving our opinion on a game, more so than a complete list of all the things in the game, if that makes sense. I do think there are issues of the podcast that would have benefited more if it leaned more on the content than the experience, and vice versa, but, that's just how some of them played out. And hopefully, with more time for hosts to prepare, we can have more balanced podcasts in the future
I would second that.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by DrewMerson »

ratsoalbion wrote: May 23rd, 2017, 1:07 pmI am curious though, do any more of you feel that our thoroughness/diligence has slipped?
Sorry, it's me again.

I don't think it's a major issue, it's just that every now and then something is said that makes me think, "Really, guys?"

Quite often, you've acknowledged it yourselves; a packed schedule means you didn't do x, y or z to get the game finished on time, or something that could be researched and verified gets the "maybe this" or "I reckon that" treatment. It's not uncommon for me to pause a podcast to seek confirmation from the web. I know 'man looks things up on a computer' isn't engaging audio but, in my opinion, "here's a thing that has been confirmed, here are our opinions on that" makes for a more interesting podcast than, "here's a couple of options, one of which might be right".

A few times lately (I say lately, I'm currently on episode 253) the host of a given episode has asked, "Did anyone do (insert major side-quest / sub-game)?" to be met by a chorus of 'no's. If the intention is not to cane and rinse everything, that's fine, but it has sometimes felt like omissions are being made.

Most likely, this is my issue. I appreciate I'm not a normal listener. I listen to every Cane & Rinse episode, regardless of whether or not I have any intention of playing a particular game. Given that nobody has the time or money to play everything, Cane & Rinse is my opportunity to increase the breadth and depth of my own knowledge of videogames. To experience them vicariously. BotW is the only Zelda game I have ever played, but I feel like I have a better understanding of and familiarity with the whole series than I would just watching Let's Plays. So, when something is missed out, and attention is drawn to it, it feels like a gap in my knowledge.

Please don't equate length of post to strength of feeling, though. It's not a major issue, this isn't intended as a harsh critique.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Michiel K wrote: May 25th, 2017, 10:42 am I had to give this some thought and I think we have to realise that replaying games on different difficulties is not for everyone, especially not in quick succession. For you and me, replaying Ninja Gaiden on a higher difficulty makes for a substantially different experience, if only because you drastically have to rethink and readjust your tactics in combat, but a lot of other people will be put off going through the exact same areas again, watching the same cutscenes and having to do some of the more frustrating platforming sections again. It's probably especially unappealing if you didn't quite love the game the first time around.
Oh yes, this is definitely a very niche interest. The idea of digging deep into the gameplay layers and achieving mechanical mastery is only ever going to appeal to a fraction of the audience. Furthermore, I never would want anyone, and that include any of the podcast hosts, to feel forced to play through something they don't enjoy just to be able to cross it off the checklist. If I had to choose, I'd rather listen to motivated people talking about half the stuff I wish they talked about than unmotivated people covering everything in detail. Stanshall brought up the Bloodborne episode, and while I agree that it could have been more in-depth, everyone seemed so passionate and enthusiastic that it became one of my favorite episodes of the podcast.

My issue very much lies with the widespread notion of "all playthroughs are created equal", so to speak, because I just don't think that it takes the specific design philosophy into account. I have a similar issue with the practice of calculating "completion times" and using that number as a valuable data point in and of itself. Not only is the number highly arbitrary depending on individual playing styles, but it fails to establish a ratio with the intensity and depth of the experience. How many interesting gameplay decisions per minute are you making in Portal as opposed to Fallout 4, for example? That would be a much more informative and less biased metric to implement and use. As it stands now, mere quantitative factors masquerading as evaluative ones like "I played through it once" or qualitative ones like "campaign is only six hours long" mean a lot less than people usually give them credit for, in my opinion.


Here's a video from Super Bunnyhop addressing this very subject, if you or anyone else is interested:

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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Michiel K »

Oh, I'm totally with you. I was always frustrated with reviewers slacking off ports of Cave's shooters when there was still a lot of ignorance about these games floating about, saying that you could beat them in less than half an hour by hitting start to continue, with their 5 or 6 short stages. That totally missed the fact that by doing so, the game has beaten you and not the other way around. And that playing until you can clear the game without continuing, let alone devise and implement some proper high scoring tactics, can make it last far longer than the biggest open world CRPG.

I also have issues with the term 'pacing' being used in a similar manner as its used in film and TV series, but that's a discussion for another time. :)
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Alex79 »

My two cents - personally, the more shows the better! I gave up listening to every single episode when I realised I simply don't have time. Whilst I do still listen to some episodes for games I've not played, there are some games (like most of the Zelda games, sorry!) that I really don't have any interest in at all, so I'll skip those ones. More episodes means more choice, and more of a chance a game I want to hear about will land in my podcast feed.

It also builds up a huge library of shows to go back to when I feel the need. For example, Bloodborne. What a show. I deliberately didn't listen to that on release, because I knew I'd want to play it at some point. Part of the whole completing a game thing for me is then going back and listening to the C&R episode on it, it's something I actually look forward to. I feel like the podcasts are pitched perfectly at the moment catering to both the casual fan and someone who's looking for a more in depth discussion. Keep it up!
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Thanks for the feedback everybody - we do take it all on board, positive and negative.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Jobobonobo »

Just donated, I have been listening to this podcast for a long enough time and enjoying it immensely so I think it is only right to give something back. Best of luck in hitting that 3000, Leon!
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Thanks Jobo!
:)
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by Sinclair Gregstrum »

I've just read through this entire thread with interest. Many valid points made by all and a very admirably civilised discussion which would have descended into stone throwing on almost any other forum!

I'd just like to say for what it's worth that I've not particularly noticed any drop in diligence or quality of analysis on any kind of consistent basis. There are ups and very occasional downs for sure, but the latter need to be looked at in the context of the incredibly high bar that's been consistently set by the team over the years.

Also a listening tip for those that only seem to engage with episodes either of games that they're interested in or have played. I've found C&R to actually be a great source of inspiration to try things that I previously might have thought outside my wheelhouse, so I'd encourage folks to just dip into an episode every now and then that they might have otherwise passed over, just in case it leads to a new gaming experience as a result. It's perhaps tricky with some more narrative based games if you don't want plots spoiled, but there are plenty of things covered where story and characters are either absent or of negligible importance - I took the plunge on Animal Crossing New Leaf thanks to C&R and lost bloody hours to that game...

I'll end by saying I've been supporting the Patreon for a good while now and sincerely hope you guys reach or get as close to your target as possible. I'm sure you're a much loved part of many people's daily lives including mine, whether it's listening to the podcasts or contributing on these here forums, and you deserve every success that comes your way.
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by kintaris »

Consider my pledge doubled!

I originally donated simply on the strength of Sound of Play - yes, I am one of those rare beasts that only listened to Sound of Play and didn't know much about the other podcast!

However since arriving on the forum and website I've not only started a long trek through the main podcast, I've also started reading the articles, looking at the Quick Rinses, and engaging in the forum. I know the focus of this particular goal is the main podcast but I'm willing to increase my donation just in appreciation of the effort it takes to keep the whole thing running. It's a lovely place to be, with all of the core crew from the podcasts making frequent and thoughtful contributions to any thread going. The internet is becoming an increasingly hellish place for me to spend my time, so I have come to value havens such as I've found here.

In simple value-for-money terms: Taking all of the elements of Cane and Rinse together, I get at least double the entertainment hours as I've been getting out of my Netflix subscription in the last three months. Thus, you've earned twice that.

In order to justify the extra donation to Cane and Rinse, I've cast off a few other subscriptions for various entities that aren't really pulling their weight! Vote with your wallet, right? :)
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Re: Help us DOUBLE the amount of Cane and Rinse podcasts!

Post by ratsoalbion »

Thank you so much!
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