Whatcha Been Playing?

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Chopper
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by Chopper »

That's 3 out of 3 recommendations for Minit on here, get on it people :D
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Stanshall
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by Stanshall »

I've just finished what I assume is the first act of Okami. The most I've enjoyed a single player game since...hmm...I can't remember putting fifteen hours into a purely single player adventure game for a long time. Probably Xenoblade Chronicles 2 but I struggled to build or maintain any momentum with that. Twenty hours over nine months. God of War, HZD, Lost Legacy, ROTTR, AC:O et al got shitcanned within five hours, so Okami must be doing something right.

Perhaps it's just that I quite miss the linearity and 'brainless' progression of the era. I don't need to assign skill points to unlock this or that new move or craft or loot or whatever busy work crap most games are bloated with these days. You get generous amounts of praise to assign to your basic stats (health, wallet, etc) but it makes virtually no difference. Equally, for all the complaints I'd heard about pacing, once I was out of the tutorial and intro cutscenes, it built up plenty of momentum and I was never wondering what the game wanted from me next; it's concisely designed with idiot proof signposting (as I've proven).

Now, it may well go to shit from this point on but I've adored what I've played so far. The art continues to dazzle, the music, sound effects and ambience are very evocative without ever being overwrought or forcibly emotive. The characters and tone are beautifully handled, there's a lightness of touch summed up by Kushi's short speech to Susano when he starts giving himself a hard time and turning inwards. It's a simple, affecting message.

To arbitrarily compare it to the Zelda games I've played, I'd say it's better than Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, and probably on a par with Wind Waker, to my tastes, falling just short of Ocarina.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Stanshall wrote: August 15th, 2018, 3:46 pm I've just finished what I assume is the first act of Okami. The most I've enjoyed a single player game since...hmm...I can't remember putting fifteen hours into a purely single player adventure game for a long time.
:clap: Wonderful! :P
Stanshall wrote: August 15th, 2018, 3:46 pm Perhaps it's just that I quite miss the linearity and 'brainless' progression of the era. I don't need to assign skill points to unlock this or that new move or craft or loot or whatever busy work crap most games are bloated with these days.
Agreed. Although I wouldn't call it "brainless", more "carefully structured". A lot of the 6th gen games have a nice sense of steady progression and authorial intent to them that has become a lost art. It says a lot that we are having this conversation about a game with blatant pacing issues and filler content like Õkami, but it's true. Today's trend towards homogeneity at all costs is pushing the industry away from these types of handcrafted experiences.

I think it's fair to say I was significantly more enthusiastic about the new GoW than you, but that game is in many ways representative of a lot of modern design trends that I dislike.
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Stanshall
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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'Brainless' was a terrible choice of word, but I'm glad you understood what I was trying and failing to describe. It's exactly that 'authorial intent' which has kept me motivated as I've moved from one area to the next, and backtracked very happily with clear direction - but without the modern obsessive micromanagement of waypoints and on-screen prompts. This will show how much of an apologist I am for the form, but I'm really enjoying the (arguably) boring bits, goofy long-winded dialogue and longueurs because they have Kamiya's fingerprints all over them. It feels quite messy and human, inspired rather than refined. I don't get any of that with, say, God of War which feels polished and repolished to a dull sheen.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Hardly anybody makes this kind of risky idiosyncratic AAA titles oozing with purpose and personality anymore.

While we're on the subject, may I ask what your issue was with SotC? Because it very much belongs in that same delightfully authored 6th gen category as Õkami et al. to me, and I'm honestly a bit surprised to hear you mention having bounced off of it in the same way as Tomb Raider, God of War, Uncharted and Assassin's Creed.
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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I don’t get where this idea that games like Assassins Creed Origins somehow aren’t ‘authored’ comes from? All the puzzles, quests and locations in that game felt very obviously hand made to me...
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Well, I haven't played Origins. But based on my previous experiences with the series, I would say that Assassin's Creed simply doesn't feel like the realization of a specific creative vision, and more like a mosaic of safe and heavily focus tested elements.

A Mikami game is unlike anything else. A Kamiya game is unlike anything else. A Miyazaki game is unlike anything else. A Miyamoto game is unlike anything else. A Suda51 game is unlike anything else. As much as you may dislike him, a Kojima game is unlike anything else. As much as I may dislike him, a Cage game is unlike anything else. Etc. And while Assassin's Creed does have an interesting premise, the execution is rather bland and uninspired. The standardized controls, NPCs, open world, RPG mechanics and overall structure make it comparatively easy to pick up, but don't allow it to stand out in a sea of similarly safe AAA titles. Does AC excel at any one thing apart from the world aesthetics / architecture?

There is a reason why games like REmake, SotC and Õkami manage to stay relevant within popular consciousness 10+ years after release. I seriously doubt that many people will passionately argue for the artistic merit of AC's puzzles and quests in 2030. I could be wrong, though!
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Ah, so we’re talking about auteur theory here then?

My experience working in the industry has taught me that it’s rarely the case that one man’s single vision drives every decision made on a game (at least of the scale of these) but I’ve not worked with any Japanese studios first hand.

And I’m always going to push back against the idea that games made by ‘comittee’ are somehow lesser works because of it.

I do get the point you’re making, there isn’t a single angle or hook in the AC series that’s as distinct as the games from the designers you cite. But there’s plenty of good design and character work in there nonetheless.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Yes, I suppose we are talking about auteur theory. And it is indeed the case that strong creative visions tend to be more noticeable in japanese-developed games.

I also don't think I made my point very well. Authorial intent is not a shortcut to quality, after all. Because yes, there is plenty of great work being produced by the dozens (or even hundreds) of individual writers, level designers and AI programmers working on the AC series. But what is the overall formula, or the creative vision that glues all these disparate elements together? Because I think that's the crux of the issue. There doesn't seem to be any clear creative direction at the helm. The ingredients are good, but there is no cook in the kitchen.

It's not unlike cinema, really. A Fincher movie will ooze his signature directorial style out of every frame, despite the fact that he's not writing, editing or playing anything directly himself. But he knows how to lead the various people working on the film towards a specific goal. The game developers I've mentioned are in a similar boat, I think.
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Chopper
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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I haven't played any Ubi games for a while, but for me the issue with their games became that they were making games to a template, rather than by committee. And in that case, I wonder whether the challenge (outside of the challenge of making games itself) becomes, how to remain creative within the strictures of that template?

To me they are lesser games because of it, because with all the sequels and propagation across their franchises (AC, Far Cry, Ghost Recon), there's nothing of interest to discover in them any more. The gameplay loop is just sitting out there on the surface. I appreciate there are other universal handicaps that these franchises both inherit and contribute to (open-world fatigue for example).

That's a personal view - god knows I'm not dissing anyone's taste in games here - but you can see Ksub's point about homogenity. I liked what Ubisoft did a few years ago when they released Grow Home and Valiant Hearts, hopefully they have more things like that in the pipeline. I'd also always give a new 'franchise' from their main studios a look, to see what they'd do with it, as there's no doubt they are massively talented people. But I fear we're a long way from getting them to throw out the template (and that's not what most people want anyway).

I would add a disclaimer that I am also heartily sick of the GTA, Fallout, Uncharted templates, so make of that what you will. :)
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by kintaris »

I have to say, I play more games more thoroughly now with their so-called "busy work", their open worlds and familiar but well crafted activities, than I did when chasing after the auteur experience in my twenties - and I only did that because so many outlets and peers seemed to think everything I liked playing was somehow ruining the industry.

I play games to immerse myself in an experience that I feel I have a hand in creating and enjoying as I play, not to be led by the nose by an auteur through whatever highly self-conscious individualism they want to express. I can watch movies for that. And in fact I don't like that behaviour much in movies either. The aggressive pursuit of trend-bucking originality often breaks the fourth wall for me in a way that switches off my emotional engagement. I'm not a part of it.

I for one will still be discussing AC in 2030. I'm still reminiscing on the first AC after a decade after all :lol:

Maybe I'm just getting old and comfortable, or always have been, but I'll take sprinkles of originality in familiar well-crafted foundations over the auteur experience every time.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Well, I suppose you and I play games for the exact opposite reasons Sam, because little is more important to me than the presence of a unique design philosophy and distinct creative voice! :)

One additional thing I'd like to point out though, is that the "authorial intent" I mentioned earlier does not automatically correlate to highbrow, potentially pretentious storytelling like with Kojima or Ueda. I've recently replayed Ninja Gaiden 2, a game with absolutely zero "classical artistic merit" by any stretch of the imagination, but one that nevertheless feels like an Itagaki game through and through. Heavily flawed, but absolutely irreplaceable in all the right ways.

What about, say, Super Mario Galaxy? Does its unique formula pull you out of the experience as well?
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by kintaris »

I haven't played Galaxy, though I'm sure I would enjoy it. My views above are certainly flexible to an extent. But presumably the core intent of Galaxy is for me to have fun, not marvel at the formula - unique as it may be.

I guess that's what it comes down to. I'm not highly conscious of the formula or template of anything that I'm playing. I think a good set of creatives can mask any formula to a point, but not if the player is looking for it from the start. AC has failed and succeeded in different iterations.

When I was at university studying scriptwriting for film and TV, I pretty much got laughed out of the class on my first day when I said my favourite movie in writing terms was Back to the Future. Everyone else, to a man, went for the Tarantinos of the world. BttF is a formulaic family movie that hits all of the cues in the expected order. But all I remember is being gripped and caught up in the moment. Knowing somewhere in my head that everything will of course run like clockwork and yet still whooping when Marty smacks his head against the wheel to bring the DeLorean back to life. It's my favourite script because it disappears when the direction, the acting, the art and the music blend with it. And I think it disappears because it is an expertly crafted and fine tuned example of a well-trodden formula. I don't think it's easy to become invisible like that, and so I applaud it - but crucially, I only do so later on, not during.

AC never hits the same heights, don't get me wrong. But it's like a Marvel movie to me. It gets the job done and it has moments of beauty or originality within a structure which pulls on familiar strings in my heart. That's OK by me.

Incidentally, I liked SotC, a lot more than Ico. But you know what I liked doing? Finding all the lizard tails and ticking them off on a sheet of paper... :lol:
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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kintaris wrote: August 16th, 2018, 9:24 am AC never hits the same heights, don't get me wrong. But it's like a Marvel movie to me. It gets the job done and it has moments of beauty or originality within a structure which pulls on familiar strings in my heart. That's OK by me.
That's an interesting analogy, I can behind that.

I'm not inherently opposed to repeated iterations of a familiar template either, as my love for the classic RE games indicates. But I suppose the issue for me is that I actively dislike the various templates that so many modern AAA games are using, despite admiring some of the high quality elements present within them (AC world design, Naughty Dog cutscene direction, etc...). You mentioned collectibles for example, which are an integral part of modern open world design. But collecting all of the flags in the first AC was one of the most pointless and mind-numbing experiences I've had in the medium.


PS: I'm sorry about your classmates being rude to you! :P
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Played a bit of Dead Cells recently. I usually don't like any of these roguelike things, even if sometimes they have some neat mechanics that are unrelated to conceit of the random generation and permadeath, that tends to really kill the enjoyment for me. But I decided to give this one a chance since the art style seemed really nice, and the combat of it looked pretty good too. Thought maybe this was the one I could get in to, or at least those good aspects could make up for stuff I don't like the sound of. Unfortunately it turned out to be another miss. Not on the hype train with everyone else on this one. Again, it's the roguelike stuff that is really killing it. At first the levels seem fun and don't feel like they're just cobbled together with an algorithm, but after a couple of runs, the artifice becomes hard to ignore. And I just really dislike having to repeat stuff over and over. I got really tired of the early few levels pretty quickly, and the appeal of the visuals kind of wore off because of that. It also doesn't help that the first few levels are pretty similar in visual style too. One of the early areas is also a toxic sewer themed level. Toxic level hazards have always been a trope that I really dislike in games, and it was no different here.

I found the performance on Switch was pretty awful too. It's supposed to run at 60fps, but any time more than a couple of enemies are on screen, it tanks really badly and is very distracting. It got me killed at least once, when the picture just totally froze for a second. There's also a consistent stutter that comes up pretty frequently too. Made me feel like the game just wasn't smooth, and I can't rely on it at all during combat. I wasn't even that excited by the combat itself either. I only really liked one of the main melee weapon types, and there isn't really any variety in the moveset for any given weapon. It can sometimes be really hard to tell what's going on with the copious amounts of pixelated particle effects going on as well. How successful you are in a run tends to come down to luck a lot too, especially when you don't like most of the weapons.

The final straw was when I came across the first boss for the second time. I beat it the first time I came across it without too much trouble, which happened to be a pretty lucky run. I swear I had reached the same point that I first met that boss several times after, but it didn't show up. Then on one run I was surprised to run across it again. Killed me pretty quickly thanks to that force field it covers itself with that damages you and knocks you back when you touch it. It's almost impossible to jump over (not sure if it's even possible at all), so I just got pinned in the corner and destroyed. Nothing I could do about it. Was not happy about that, or finding that you have to defeat all the bosses on every single run. I also don't think it's animated well at all. The walk cycle is really goofy, and attacks are pretty basic and uninteresting. It's nowhere near as good as anything else in the game. Like it's still a placeholder asset. But anyway, I'm done with that game. Not for me. I think that's the nail in the coffin of me trying any other game of this type again. Guess I should have got Iconoclasts instead.

And I almost forgot to mention, I've been going back through Deus Ex: Human Revolution too. For a while I've been considering doing so, but unsure on which version to go for. Finally decided to go back to the original version, with the old bad boss fights. I did it for a couple of reasons. First being that they actually changed the art style of the game slightly in the Director's Cut. They toned down the yellow filter since so many people complained about it. While it still looks good, that always annoyed me. It just weakens the great art style and mood of that game, just because immature people on the internet think "yellow, har har piss colour". I definitely made the right choice in that regard. It's a subtle difference, but it does make this game feel like it has more atmosphere in this version.

The other reason I chose this version was because I wanted to play through the game differently this time. Originally I always tried to play this stealthily and non-lethally. Not 100% flawlessly by any means, but that seemed like the intended way to play, so I did. So to have a different experience this time around, and try out things I didn't before, I went loud and lethal. As such, not having the option to do boss fights any other way doesn't really matter. So far I'm having fun, but it's an odd experience. Unsurprisingly, this game isn't a very good shooter. It's not terrible, but the game isn't really a good experience from that perspective. The game also sort of forces you in to stealth for certain moments too. Putting you up against overwhelming odds, so you can't just blast your way through. Killing everyone is still viable in those situations, but you need to get in to a good position to ambush enemies. And sometimes you're just up against stuff you can't deal with at that point in the game. So far that has seemed to be the exception though, and I have actually been able to breeze through the game quite quickly. There is a certain fun in just ripping your way through a level without any regard for subtlety which was such a plodding experience before trying to stealth through. On the other hand though, it sort of weakens the level design too. Sneaking around forced you to check every tiny little nook and cranny, and discover all the cool stuff the designers put there, and tricks for you to pull off. But if you're just shooting your way through everything, there's way less reason to explore and poke around. I don't feel too bad about that, since I've already done the game that way, but still, it does sell the game short somewhat. Kind of proves that the slow and stealthy approach is definitely the intended method.
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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KSubzero1000 wrote: August 16th, 2018, 10:15 am But collecting all of the flags in the first AC was one of the most pointless and mind-numbing experiences I've had in the medium.
Did you collect, or attempt to collect, all the flags?
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Yeah, I did collect them all. It was one of my first experiences with the open world genre, and I was rather enthusiastic about the premise of a medieval adventure to the point that I severely underestimated the mechanical tedium of it all. I also wanted to grab all the achievements to show my support for the game or something along those lines (?). The ordeal definitely soured me on a lot of game design stuff.

PS: Needless to say, I was forced to use a guide halfway through.
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by Alex79 »

Yeah - collecting the flags or feathers etc in games like that has never appealed. Even stuff like the riddler question marks in the Arkham games has seemed like a chore, and those are at least mostly little puzzles in themselves so are relatively more interesting. I think that it's something we are fortunately seeing less of as time passes.
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Stanshall
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

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Scrustle, I know you said you're done with Dead Cells but can I recommend a Tactics based run, where you use as much purple gear as possible and even go for pure ranged weapons over melee. Once I started playing more patiently and stealthily, letting my traps and projectiles do the work, and thoroughly rinsing each area for upgrades, I started to have a lot more success and fun. I was also ready to bin it after getting frustrated with the melee combat but now I can make any run pretty workable, and I find myself unlocking new gear at a much faster rate, too.
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Re: Whatcha Been Playing?

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Yeah... when it comes to templates I'm very selective in my criticism! On one hand I'll curse the repetition of Ubisoft's obsession with open worlds, and on the other I embrace shmups from so many different eras. Or 2D fighters, etc.

I bought the first Assassin's Creed day one, full-price, excited by this flawed but very different experience (circa 2007), and I was genuinely optimistic about the possibilities of the template. Flash forward to 2018 and yeah... perhaps the issue was my expectations, and I didn't take into account the labour and costs of creating those sort of games, and the subsequent risk-averse nature that comes with higher costs (it's true of movies as it is in games: more money = less risks).

But like I said, I will collect 2D fighters and shmups regardless of perceived (and sometimes true) repetition of templates and formulas. So, I guess what I'm saying is I have nature biases and preferences? I like what I like?
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