Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » June 12th, 2017, 3:13 am

So I think this is an interesting link to put here, heard of this book yesterday when I saw an interview with the author and Im really interested in it and I think annyone engaged with this thread should be too, it's a detalied analysis on the online culture that created the current far-right(aka altright), it's coming out on June 30th: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3485 ... ll-normies

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Jobobonobo
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » June 12th, 2017, 8:58 pm

That sounds like a very interesting read alright. The podcast Chapo trap House has an interesting interview with the author that some may find interesting. I salute the author for wading into cesspools such as 4chan and Stormfront! Must have seen some pretty messed up stuff.

https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house ... agle-22617

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Michiel K
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Michiel K » June 13th, 2017, 12:39 pm

^^^^Pretty interesting listen!
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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » June 26th, 2017, 2:20 pm

Comedian Jimmy Dore breaks down a Julian Assange piece on why the Democratic party is doomed, a worthwhile discussion and I cant say this enough that to defeat the far right there has to be a legitimate and strong REAL left to challenge them and the current democratic party refuses that they try to perpetuate failed policies that gave us this surge in the first place:

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Stanshall » June 26th, 2017, 6:56 pm

I know you're not based in the UK but I think Jeremy Corbyn's most significant achievement over the last three months is to convince the disparate branches on the left that he deserves unanimous support. He doesn't yet have that but he has won over a lot of people who have rallied behind someone willing to take on those who stand in opposition. Perhaps more impressive is that his achievements have basically forced the media to acknowledge his credibility.

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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » August 17th, 2017, 6:23 pm

So since the events on the US last weekend there's been alot of talk about nazis and how to fight them,etc. There's this growing sentiment that we should punch nazis and literally fight them which to be honest doesnt sound very smart at all, as Chomsky already said the far-right has an advantage when it comes to the arena of violence, meaning they are better at it, if the left escalates then the talking point of " extremists on both sides" will hold water in the media and it will be the only excuse the nazis need. And just as another point remember that the majority of the police, the military and general people with guns voted for Trump, and if you're really wondering which way they'd go if violence escalated you only need to look at the events this past weekend where police did nothing as that nazi ram into a crowd(some even celebrated on facebook) meanwhile they were arresting the next day people who took down a confederate statue.

With that in mind I found this very interesting piece about an organization that seeks to convince white nationalists away from their toxic ideology, of course they've been defunded by Trump but the group seems to have had success in turning people away from their extremist views, some may see that as naive or pointless but unless you want to kill them all at the end of the day these people will still be living in your country and it would be better for everyone if the werent nazis right? And for those who think shaming or witch hunting is a valuable strategy I'll just put a quote of the founder of the group here:
"I would say show me the evidence, tell me not what you can think or feel but what you can prove. If you can show me someone you have shamed into changing, beaten into changing, by all means I want to see that. But I don’t think that’s the way for anyone.”
Here is the full piece: https://theintercept.com/2017/08/17/thi ... funded-it/

Also I have to touch on the beyond disgracefull events that happened yesterday reguarding Totalbiscuit and LauraK, what happened yesterday is to me the prime indicative of why the nazis are winning in the first place, that an inocuous article about dealing with online hate can have such an absurd reaction making a trans writer have to flee social media is shamefull, it would be one thing if it was the nazis doing but no it was the supposed "left", parasites like Feminist frequency and others that are a cancer in the left and serve as a catalyst to deliver a bunch of apolitical people to the right, and this might be taboo to bring up here but it was the same thing with gamergate it was bunch of idiotic "journalists" inside their little bubbles that served a large part of the gaming public to the far-right in a silver platter, they then pretended they had nothing to do with and proceeded to carry out witch hunts on people they didnt like, case and point Totalbiscuit someone who not only tried to stay out of it for the longest time and only really commited to a "side" when he thought he was about to die, but even after that he was one of the only people trying to create some sort of dialogue between all involved and he tried until the last day of that fiasco(if you dont believe me go search all his videos on the matter and then tell me he was interested in echo chambers or in spreading hate), he never incited harrassment or condoned hate speech in fact after that he realized he gathered some unwanted followers but he never gave them any quarter, when transphobic assholes attacked LauraK when she was on his podcast he in the most public and direct way told them to fuck off and that they werent welcome, in his con this year he made a point to seek and kick out a person who made a transphobic "question" and in the games industry he was one of the more vocal people in talking about the recent events.

The claims that he is somehow a nazi or enabler of hate are as pathetic as the people making then, he has made a more positive impact on this industry then 99% of his "critics" combined have or ever will. That people like him are not only alienated but activelly attacked by the left online shows me that the greatest problem facing the us isnt from without but from within, you dont even need to look at Totalbiscuit to see that just look at Bernie v Hillary and how the Hillary side smeared and wanted to bury sanders at all costs, or how Corbyn needed to fight his own party multiple times. If people like Trump are getting elected isnt because people are more hatefull all of a sudden or even because they see them as a good alternative it's because the left is greater mess then the shitshow on the other side and that's saying alot.

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Jobobonobo
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » August 20th, 2017, 7:27 pm

Wondering what people thought of the "Free speech" rally that was held in Boston this weekend? The far right were vastly outnumbered by counter protesters and there was a tremendous amount of solidarity between different left wing groups which shows what a difference a united left makes. I think this is the best way to show these white supremacists that despite their reactionary echo chambers online, their ideology is despised by nearly everybody and shows that you do have to actively resist them. Ignoring them is not an option sadly. Seeing as the event went without much incident as well, it certainly won't do much to help aid them in recruiting potential newcomers. Hope to see more of this type of action in the future.

The overall positive reception and increasing popularity of Corbyn is a good thing to see as well and I was overjoyed that he managed to prove Blair's claims that he was "unelectable" wrong. Hope to see more Blairites eat crow in the future and that Corbyn will try and steer the UK more leftward. As for the Democrats in the US, they have two choices: either embrace more leftwing positions such as universal healthcare and limiting corporate power or stick to their bland centrism and winning message of "We are not Republicans!". One of these will lead to a true alternative to neoliberalism that will be attractive to a lot of voters and even non voters, the other will lead to a second Trump term. They have at least 3 years to decide which path to take. The way things are turning out this year, it is frankly really difficult to predict what the political climate will be like in 2020. So who knows?

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by kintaris » August 21st, 2017, 12:55 am

It can be difficult to watch for those of us far away from the front lines, especially when we feel like our only line of communication is something like Twitter where you mainly preach to your own choir. My take is to thoroughly research organisations working to peacefully (but firmly) address the problem and offer what help I can remotely to them. Other than that, it's just about peacefully trying to re-educate those close to me who are still weaning themselves off the Daily Mails of the world. They need a lot of support. The convenience of the right-leaning world view is hard to shake if you've been living in a world that accepts it for half a century or more. I save my ire for the manipulative peddlers of these views, and try and show some compassion for those that have been brainwashed by it.
Sam Quirke - @kintaris

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Flabyo » August 21st, 2017, 9:09 am

We're not really going to find out how effective an opposition Corbyn is until after the summer recess.

There's a lot of onerous stuff coming down the pipe in the next session of parliament, lets see how he does.

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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » December 6th, 2017, 7:34 pm

So it turns out that Donald Trump was indeed colluding with a foreign power, he clearlly made some deal and is a puppet of an awfull authoritarian right-wing goverment with terrible human right records, only it wasnt the russian goverment like everyone thought, it was the Israeli goverment:

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-t ... you-think/

As someone on the outside I find it hilarious to me that America has been histerical for over an year claming that Trump colluded(whatever that means) with Russia to win the election and is doing Putin's bidding, despite nearlly every single foreign policy decision he's taken being agaisnt Russia's interest to approving the arming of nazis(I mean anti-russian freedom fighters) in Ukraine to increasing sanctions and censoring RT, bombing Syria, escalating with North Korea and Iran, so on and so forth. But like any good conspiracy theory any evidence that it's not true is only further evidence that it is real because "they" are trying to throw you off the scent.

Now we have tangible incontrovertial evidence that Trump is not only financially liked to a foreign goverment but has indeed shifted US policy to help them, and it's Israel. His Son-in-law has investments on companies that make Israel's ilegal settlements on palestine, ironically Kushner asked Flynn to try and INFLUENCE Russia and others to change their vote regarding the settlements and that didnt even work. Of course today Trump annouces that he recognizes Jerusalem as capital of Israel, if that doesnt show who pulls Trump strings I dont know what does and yet people in America seem to have ignored this for the most part still looking for that Russia connection I guess.

I bring this up because as is very well put here, this decision is very dangerous:
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ce/547652/

Both islamic extremism and the western far-right feed on each, the more terrorists attacks there are the more people go to the far right making society more intolerable muslims each in turn leads to more radicalization and I think it's really telling given Trumps retweets of british facists a few days ago and followed by this and the "new and improved" muslim ban(is that the third of fourth attempt now?) And the Israel connection is very interesting because the debate in the west regarding Palestine is still "Oh both sides cant get along" instead of the reality that Israel is a colonial state bent on etinically cleasing all of palestine from arabs and muslims, recently Nelson Mandela's grandson visited the region and said that the situation is worse then in apartheid South Africa, and it's quite telling that the far right in the west is very anti-semitic but they love Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ire-israel

I put this here because policy efforts to contain the alt-right have to include foreign policy not just domestic one, which is why I really admire Corbyn calling out Saudi Arabia(which has it's own Trump ties) and the Uk's role in radicalization despite alot of internal opposition.

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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » June 10th, 2018, 3:07 am

Great talk between Owen Jones and Tom Walker(Jonnathan Pie) regarding the left and free speech, I think both make some very good points and while I lean more towards Tom Walker's side I think Owen Jones challenged him in all the right ways:

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Whippledip » June 14th, 2018, 12:58 am

He certainly doesn't know what the hell he's talking about with regards to the Australian gay marriage plebiscite. A big part of the problem was this was a "solution" put forward by a government who ran on a platform of financial responsibility, getting rid of crippling debt, reducing wasteful spending (no surprises it's only gotten worse since they took over), yet every piece of research showed that Australians were overwhelmingly in support of it. I think there was one electorate in the entirety of Australia (lol, Queensland) that didn't respond with "yes", and the government spent 120 million dollars to find out what they already knew. It was a move to placate their corporate friends and rusted on voter base because then they could just point to that as a reason to do something they normally wouldn't in order to keep their position.

Also freedom of speech only stops the government from censoring you (in the broadest of terms), and even then there are limits. Champions of freedom of speech completely misunderstand it's actual application and complain when someone tells them they're an idiot for saying that a hotdog is a sandwich. They want freedom from responsibility, they had their freedom of speech, they said it out loud or in print or on record, people heard it, and people reacted as such. If lots of people are constantly telling you to shut the fuck up because what you're saying is stupid, then just maybe you should re-evaluate the things you've been saying. Conversely, if I'm the only person constantly shouting someone down, I should engage in some introspection.

During the lead up to the gay marriage plebiscite this became a big thing, Margaret Court, who has an arena named after her, an arena used during the Australian Open, got all pissy because Qantas decided to openly support the yes vote. After everyone told her to shut up, all the free speech pundits came out of the woodwork to have the same dumb discussion. She wrote in a widely circulated, conservative leaning newspaper in Western Australia, her speech couldn't have been any freer! Same as the idiot on a no vote ad who was lamenting his lack of free speech...on national fucking television.

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Todinho
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » June 14th, 2018, 2:36 pm

Whippledip wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 12:58 am

They want freedom from responsibility, they had their freedom of speech, they said it out loud or in print or on record, people heard it, and people reacted as such.
I dont think either of them are arguing freedom of consequence, Tom Walker especifically said he likes awfull right wingers to speak their mind because them he can take them to task over it.
Whippledip wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 12:58 am
If lots of people are constantly telling you to shut the fuck up because what you're saying is stupid, then just maybe you should re-evaluate the things you've been saying. Conversely, if I'm the only person constantly shouting someone down, I should engage in some introspection.
I utterly reject that notion, first off in this type of "debate" you shouldnt want the other person to shut up but rather show to everybodies face why they are wrong for X, Y and Z. Second I dont care if that's not the "textbook" definition of censorship but more then goverment censorship a big problem with speech is the general groupthink that limits the "acceptable ideas" permited to be expressed within society, as Chomsky says you can have a very narrow field of the debate and have a very lively debate within that, the problem is when you start throught policing people especially because more often then not it is used agaisnt the left much more often then the right, just for example just think of how the word socialism has been taboo in the United States for generations only now ceasing to be and how that lead to generations of economists there never reading Marx one of the most important thinkers of all time.

Once you buy into the framework that certain things shouldnt be even thought about you're already a narrowing the field for freedom of speech in society, and yes if you follow my train of thought that means you'll end up with some hatefull garbage and stupid people saying all kinds of things but that also means you get to carefuly point out why they are wrong because their arguments arent based on logic, morality or the general well being so you get to expose them for what they are.

A problem that does happen within the left online is the constant use of identity and appeals to morality to shut down debate as he pointed out, for example when devate involves a privileged white person you can shut down whatever discussion by saying privilege without having to engage substantivally, another thing is saying "oh that person isnt left enough or doesnt support all the right ideas" then you turn that political disagreement into a question of morality and then you can dismiss whatever they say.
And this is an issue and I dont care if right wing idiots overblow that to their audience but it is a problem one that even lift wing authors recognize, that in many ways the left left the arena of debate and of course in their absence right wing nutjobs took over, so now they control the framing of discourse which is very dangerous and poor.

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