Todinho wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 3:24 am The rematches I dont even know how many times I died to False Knight there

Absolutely agree with you there. I did beat False Knight rematch but i died a lot lol but I've never been able to overcome the rematch with Soul Tyrant. I got frustrated, walked away and never returned haha. They're definitely tough.

This game has got its hooks into me. I've just beaten the first boss and now into a new area with some funky music. To begin with, I kept looking for a dodge button but I'm really starting to appreciate that there isn't one. Being made to jump and use my directional attacks in the air is an interesting mechanic.

I'm excited to get home and play some more.

This is a game I'd recommend to everyone, especially if you enjoy metroidvanias. Go for that good ending if you can. Even now I'm tempted to try the permadeath mode. Maybe once all the DLC is finished.

Todinho wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 10:33 pm Im gonna be that guy and say I actually found Watcher Knights pretty easy, the dream bosses on the other hand...

I'll be the guy to back you up. Watcher Knights only took a couple tries for me. Lost Kin is the boss that really had my number. Don't want to know how many times I lost that fight.

With how the game is structured, you can go into some of these fights with wildly varying goodies so that can make a big difference on top of just play style. Everyone will have their own bane.

Watcher Knights beaten! Played over 35 hours of this game apparently.

I'm not loving this game as much as others seem to be, sadly.

The scarcity of save points and fast travel points combined with the games tendency to throw very hard bosses at you with zero warning really starts to grate after a while. Often, the realisation when I (suddenly) die of just how much of the same ground I have to cover yet again just to attempt the boss again (often upwards of ten minutes play time) is enough to make me give up and put the Switch down rather than jumping straight back in. People are throwing around '35 hour' completion times, but I'm wondering how much of this consisted of pointless, arbitrary busywork and backtracking?

It wouldn't be so bad, but I'm also finding the level design quite bland and repetitive, so it's very easy to get lost and disoriented. The game world is also seemingly designed so that if you miss a single platform in one of the vertical areas (verily easily done thanks to the slightly janky jump mechanics and the annoying way that the player character lurches backwards on contact with anything), you fall all the way down to the bottom and have to tediously climb all the way back up again...

I also can't stand how stingy the game is with doling out maps, and things like making you pay for the privilege of seeing your location on it. I really don't see how this adds anything but obfuscation and frustration on the part of the player.

There are numerous other minor frustrations such as collecting money being all but pointless, as you will invariably lose it all minutes later when you die again.... I could go on.

It has some good aspects - I like how lean and challenging the combat is - but all of the faults conspire to make the game feel like a real slog, and I'm considering moving onto something else. It isn't even close to the quality of other recent Metroidvania games like Hyper Light Drifter and Steamworld Dig 2 as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly the same here. I see how it approaches excellence, particularly if you describe it in comparison to the games it steals from and only look at those positive core elements but the execution is unimaginative and obtuse so far. Where it might like to be enigmatic, it's laborious. Where it has delusions of aching decrepitude, it's repetitive and bland. Even the hub area is confusingly similar and poorly signposted, the world and level design little more cohesive than Dark Souls 2. It's just a patchwork.

What I've always found absolutely key to the appeal of Metroidvania games (and the Steam World Dig games in particular are an excellent example of this) is how you are constantly drip-fed upgrades which facilitate ever faster and smoother traversal of the map. The relative lack of this dynamism in Hollow Knight just makes the game feel a little turgid imo.

Amen. What is the point of the dash? One of the least meaningful 'upgrades' I can remember.

I should say also that I don't mind challenging games at all, I often relish them. I just wrapped up a complete playthrough of DKC: Tropical Freeze, which is one of the toughest games I've played in recent years and I loved it. So it's not just that I'm butthurt that this game is tricky. But there's a fine line between a game that is challenging and a game that simply doesn't respect my time. HK falls on the wrong side of this line for me. The difficulty feels artificial and unearned. Forcing the player to retread ten minutes of platforming just to have another crack at a difficult bit isn't big or clever, it's just tedious, and the sort of cheap trick that I thought the industry had long since evolved out of?

Often when I'm playing HK and I realise where I need to get to next, open the map and realise how far away it is and how long it's going to take to get there, I just sigh a little inside. That's not a good sign.

Stanshall wrote: ↑July 6th, 2018, 5:57 pm Amen. What is the point of the dash? One of the least meaningful 'upgrades' I can remember.

Well once you get the second upgrade for it to make it to the shade cloak it gives you a second or two of invincibility frames.

Ok ok that's enough I know opinions and all but these dont correlate with reality, First off I advise you try and do a "dash free run" and then come back and tell if you're able to, spoiler alert you're not, the dash is a skill necessary not only for traverssal but its really usefull in combat as well, and it just gets more usefull in both senses once you get that upgrade, in fact the dash is without a doubt the most necessary and usefull ability in the entire game!

As for the other accusation that the game doesnt drip feed with enough skills that's only true if you're looking strictly at movement abilities because the game more then makes up for by giving spells( which are also necessary for traversal in new areas) and 40 charms that change the way you play.

As for the game being "repetitive" because you have to redo areas after you die, well welcome to metroidvanias, if you die you go back to save point and have to redo the area its basic stuff, the game might have more spaced out checkpoints sure but you can also heal every point of damage you take, all you have to do is hit enemies and you're able to heal, not only that the reason you have so little life and why the screen shakes every hit you take is because you can avoid every damage in the game, claims that the game is artificially difficult or unfair are absurd, you can avoid every incoming damage and you can heal on the fly whenever you want that's not unfair, if with these in mind you fuck up enough times that you its more then resonable for you to redo a section of the game, you know like every game ever.
The one point where the game breaks that rule is when you take damage during plataforming challenges because there the game can feel needlessly punishing and frustrating, so if you're speaking especifically about that then you gotta a point.

The map system is the only thing I can fully agree with, I feel it is a needlessly convoluted system thats this just so you things to spend money on and they could've simply streamlined it so you'd update the map each time you saved right away that way you can preserve the feeling of unknown while you're exploring a new area and then have the area mapped once you reach a checkpoint.

Can't disagree with any of that. My most meaningful criticism would be that outside the bosses, the combat is simply not enjoyable. It's a case of waiting for enemies to walk or fly into my sword swipes. It's a failing of 2D melee perhaps, and I found Salt and Sanctuary equally mundane - and all Castlevanias little better - so I don't particularly enjoy making my way through the levels. It looks and sounds great but it's very dull to fight the various enemies you meet. The praise is very overblown, to my tastes, and I got an awful lot more out of Shantae.

That's fair I'd argue that there more then just waiting for the enemies to walk into your sword but Hollow Knight doesnt have combos or different weapons or anything similar.

I'm quite enjoying my time with HK but finding it all too easy to turn off when frustrated. Mainly down to the traversal which is becoming more tolerable over time but it just seems that all the stag stations are so far away from whenever I am. Could use one more in each area maybe?

dezm0nd wrote: ↑July 8th, 2018, 1:27 pm I'm quite enjoying my time with HK but finding it all too easy to turn off when frustrated. Mainly down to the traversal which is becoming more tolerable over time but it just seems that all the stag stations are so far away from whenever I am. Could use one more in each area maybe?

If you defeat dream warriors early or collect a lot of spirit trees you can unlock an ability to put down one moveable marker that you can teleport to from anywhere in the world. That might alleviate some stress of retreading a return to bosses. I know I only made use of it twice. 1.) to fast travel back to hive knight a few times after dying.
2.) A ton of times to insta return in shame to the Grey Mourner after continuously failing a Nightmare flower escort mission...

Anyways you can get it ...fairly early. As early as you can get to Crystal Peak and beat a few Dream warriors.

I’m in White Palace right now, and am tearing my hair out.

Boss runs and platforming challenges have been the least enjoyable sections of the game for me, and White Palace is nothing but platforming. I can feel these spinning blades slicing away at my enjoyment and appreciation of the game.

Alas, once again platforming is my Kryptonite.

Git gud.

Helpful?

Yeah, I didn't do that area.

ratsoalbion wrote: ↑July 15th, 2018, 12:52 pm Git gud.

Helpful?

Not as much as you might think.

James wrote: ↑July 15th, 2018, 12:36 pm I’m in White Palace right now, and am tearing my hair out.

Boss runs and platforming challenges have been the least enjoyable sections of the game for me, and White Palace is nothing but platforming. I can feel these spinning blades slicing away at my enjoyment and appreciation of the game.

Alas, once again platforming is my Kryptonite.

I'm not sure if you're interested but there are some very helpful YouTube videos that can help you bypass entire sections of the white palace. Maybe it's cheating but I didn't care. I like difficult platforming but white palace is such a severe spike in difficulty to anything else in the entire game and it doesn't prepare you for that. It's also a little tacky to gate a key item to the "true" ending behind that insanity. I don't want it removed from the game. I like that the challenge is there for those who want it but it's a little harsh to hide something so valuable. I'm possibly the worst gamer on earth so I know you can do it if I did hahaha if you just go to YouTube and type in "white palace shortcuts" or something like that. You'll find a few videos and many of the shortcuts let you skip large sections of the game and save tons of time. Also you'll arrive at harder areas with much more health. If it's not for you that's fine. Just wanted to give you the option.