For the final episode of volume 2, this coming Wednesday, Leon, Tony, Jay, and myself will be discussing Quantic Dream's ever-divisive thriller, Heavy Rain.
Feel free to let us know what you thought of the game in this thread. Don't be shy. I'm sure we won't be.
I loved Heavy Rain when it came out, and have good memories.
It's not the sort of game I'll be replaying anytime soon, but why would I? The joy was following the plot, creating your own story and comparing with others. Sure there were plot holes, ropey mechanics, but if you didn't get that game spoiled for you with the giant twist it was a genuinely impressive experience for me. Luckily I didn't.
I think some people forget we didn't have it quite so good with story-driven games when Heavy Rain came out. While replay value was poor, the trophy mechanics terrible (encouraging replays to get trophies in a game where the more you play it the more the flaws will out?) and the gameplay questionable, I really didn't have a problem with it and just let myself enjoy it for what it was. It was also pretty technically impressive graphically.
To be honest, all you had to do at the time was listen to the sheer amount of Heavy Rain spoiler-casts around, people excitedly comparing stories, what happened here, how did you handle this, did this character do that (being careful with spoilers here just in case) to see how well the game made it's mark.
Aside from the trophy contradiction, I think David Cage said you should only play this game once. I believe he was right. I did, and I still look back on it fondly as a highlight of the genre this generation.
When I think back on Heavy Rain, I had a very positive experience with it. I found it engaging and exciting through my entire playthrough. I am glad to have played it. That said, thinking back to it as a piece of interactive storytelling, there are some theoretical points of contention that I have with the title.
The designers opted to restrict player freedom in favor of telling their own story, which is a perfectly fine way to go about creating a game like this. They obviously wanted to maintain many cinematic qualities that player freedom would have interfered with. For example, free exploration makes the pacing more difficult to regulate. Be this the case, the more incidental moments of freedom that Cage's team did give the player were rather puzzling. Interacting with objects in the environment often requires players to hold down a button or to follow a prompted motion with the thumbstick or Move controller, and if the button is not held for long enough or the motion messed up in any way, the animation would rewind and the instance be reset, allowing for the player to try it again. For example, if the player releases the button that causes the character to pick his cup of coffee up off of the kitchen counter and sip from it, he will put it back down as if he was just going through some strange obsessive compulsive ritual. Almost every interaction in the game can be played with in this way. Your wife asks you to help carry a bag of groceries, you go to pick it up, you set it back down on the counter, you pick it up again, and set it back down on the counter -- like a crazy man having a chuckle at his frustrated wife's expense. In a world that the designers went to such painstaking lengths to protect the seriousness and realism of, these moments seem entirely unnatural and, although entirely the choice of the player, stand out because almost all other expressions of our freedom have been restricted.
Although my freedom was limited, I still feel like I had a good amount of agency over the story. It is possible to fail sections of the story, and the consequences of doing so drastically affect how the rest of the story plays out. The player may not have all of the information that they need to catch the killer, or a key character may die off before their purpose has been fully served. I messed up one of the many trials the main character was put through and did not have all of the information I should have had when trying to track down the location of the killer in the end of the game, so I had to use my own detective skills to make inferences and educated guesses as to how to proceed. I chose the correct location despite not having all of the information I needed by taking a chance on some background details that I had found earlier, which was an incredibly rewarding feeling.
While I absolutely respect that the story was a singular vision and Cage sought to tell a linear mystery story, I personally think that the game could have supported multiple endings very well. For the first half of the game, there are details in place that could point to just about any of the characters being the killer. There is a very specific point in the story when the game tells the player who the killer is, and the rest of the game becomes a race to find and take him down. I think it would make the game very replayable if the identity of the killer was randomized, and details of the final act were switched around. Really, just about any of the characters could have had compelling reasons to be the killer. Even if most of the scenes played out the same, I would play the game multiple times if I never knew, going into it, who the killer was going to turn out to be.
Overall, I had a good time playing the game but also recognize its flaws. I feel like somewhere on the intersection of Heavy Rain, Deadly Premonition, and Gone Home awaits the ultimate mystery game just waiting to be created. I'm excited to see what happens as we continually get closer to that point.
After hearing the indigo prophecy podcast and remembering Heavy rain I came to the conclusion that David Cage's design process is the same of Naughty Dog,he thinks of the set pieces first and the plot later and that's why his games are both great and terrible at times this gets really apparent in Heavy Rain,unlike indigo prophecy that's good until the middle and then goes on a freefall until it hits rock bottom,Heavy rain is more of a roller coaster with some really high notes and some really really low notes.
Let's take Ethan for example he has some really great scenes in the game,the lizard challenge and the confrontation with the drug dealer are masterfully executed and are moments that I was go back to when thinking about this generation on the bad side however Ethan is also a terrible/boring character I know he's supposed to be depressed because his son died but his only character trait is that he's depressed and I cant really empathize with him maybe it's because im not a father but I really didnt care about his kids other than thinking-"oh this is a neat tutorial" when they showed up(the whole Jason! thing also didnt help).
The other characters suffer from the same problems,the FBI guy is pretty cool with his future glasses and addiction and he has some really cool investigation parts until he's partenerd up with the most unberable cop in the world and you're forced too see their "relationship" that only shows how FBI guy has no personality at all,then we have Madison....she has some action scenes and is dropped in the plot for no logical reason and contributes nothing!It seems she's only there to be traumatized and give "comfort" to Ethan,the only character I really liked was Scott Shelby he was a old private eye out that got things done, I think his parts end up flowing much more naturally in the game and were by far the most enjoyable to play,so you can probably tell how mad I was when they crapped all over his character in the end.
The overall plot however is what suffers the most,there's a reason David cage only wants you to play Heavy rain once because with you play it a second time everything falls apart!which is a shame since the set up is really good if anything the story allows you to fail by choosing leading to some pretty different endings and it's something I think similar games should take note of cough* walking dead *cough.
So yeah in the end Heavy Rain ends up with more plot holes than it knows what to do with,a cast of terribly flat characters and some of the cringiest scenes of this generation however despite all this I cant bring myself to hate the game or even dislike it for that matter,the good bits are just so good that they stick out much more for me and no matter how bad some parts got I never really stopped having fun(even if fun wasnt the emotion the game wanted me to feel at the time),so for me it was a worthwhile ride and im looking foward to the Ellen Page chronicles and wherever the Cage train goes next,he really should stop trying to write romance though.
I loved Heavy Rain. I was really excited about it coming out after I played the demo and when it was released I wasn't disappointed. It was one of only a handful of day one purchases I've ever made. I tried to replay it recently, but couldn't really get back in to it as I remembered too much of the story - although having said that I can watch a favourite film many times so I'm not sure why the same wouldn't apply here. I think it's more of a time investment thing. My first play through though I absolutely loved. I didn't see the ending coming at all, it was a total surprise to me. Replaying the game may throw more hints up as to who the killer was, but I certainly never spotted anything the first time round. I admit the game was full of plot holes - never explaining how or why Ethan keeps waking up with paper swans in his hands was probably the biggest one for me, but if people can forgive steaming turds like Inception at the movies I don't see why they can't forgive this masterpiece a few glitches here and there. One final note - I lent my brother this game after I'd finished it. He brought it back round mine literally four hours after I'd given it him telling me he'd completed it. After a little questioning I discovered he'd managed to get every single character killed at the first opportunity, seen an ending screen and thought that was it. I for one am really looking forward to Beyond : Two Souls.
Three word review : (Ok, it's too obvious but no one else has taken it yet!) "JASON! JASON! JASON!"
I suspect a lot of what people feel about this game comes down to how they feel about the control scheme, how the feel about the plot or in some cases both.
Personally I like the ambition of David Cage but feel his execution is flawed purely on the basis that creating intricate on screen prompts to mirror actions does not necessarily make me as a player feel any more involved in what is going on in front of me. Dragons Lair never managed it when asking the player to complete QTE's and I have always found all this directors games suffer from the same issue. Good characterization and an interesting portrayal of relationships works far better in creating that connection than having to shake a dual shock in order to wrestle someone off me.
But the plot that I had, and the way it all played out was good for me, fun even. As much as I thought the controls were poor I got wrapped up in the mystery and the who-dunnit aspect. Passing each trial and making choices on how to achieve this was quite exhilarating at points, especially when I had to abandon some of them due to my lack of ability. The game did definitely put me in some horrible situations and requested I make some snap decisions I was never convinced were correct at the time. The fact it managed to bring it all together for me by the end was a triumph, and while it never projected the game up to the heights of excellence I would say it was still a good title to play through.
Of course this sort of open ended aspect means if things do not work out the player can have an awful story experience full of random aspects and things that just do not make sense. If that did happen I can definitely understand why the whole thing may feel incredibly cheap.
Cage is very ambitious, and his vision should be applauded but he suffers from the Molyneux complex of speaking without necessarily having something in place to back it up. But then if we never had that, would he even try to do what he wants to do?
In Fahrenheit, Quantic Dream took what I thought was a frankly interesting supernatural crime story, dressed it up as a camel and shot it into space. Thankfully, their response to the almost universal criticism the second half of Fahrenheit garnered was to rein in their proclivities for outrageous story elements in Heavy Rain. The biggest surprise, therefore, was that, despite showing willingness to address their previous game's critical flaw, Quantic Dream made such significant backwards steps in other areas. Voice acting, characters and set-pieces were all arguably better in Fahrenheit. These are strange areas to let slide given the game's obvious desire to move interactive, cinematic storytelling forward.
The forced, unearned twist and gaping plot hole were further evidence that Quantic Dream's style of interactive storytelling is let down massively by the story it is trying to tell.
As a big Fahrenheit fan (let's pretend the second half of the game didn't happen)I followed Heavy Rain up until launch then after that never payed it much attention as I didn't have a PS3 and didn't want to spoil the story. Thankfully a year or so later I borrowed one from a friend and had a few days to blitz through it.
It was the first time I'd ever used the dual shock controller and I vowed to never replay a section even though I really struggle with the control system to start.
With Ethan I shared his frustrations as I messed up every challenge through my crapness with the dual shock. I thought as a character he was a bit crap. The only moment I enjoyed with Ethan was turning Madison down as after failing the power station bit I felt gutted for him and shagging a reporter is hardly going to help the situation is it?. Our priority was saving his son.
The same can be said of Madison, didn't really engage with the character. The set piece in her apartment was fantastic though even if it was all in her head. Was this explained in the prequel?.
So Heavy Rain for me was about Scott and Norman. I think I preferred their storylines as it involved investigation and was in places more action oriented.
I was genuinely shocked when the origami killer was revealed. I didn't see it coming in a million years. That feeling in my gut I hadn't felt in a game before (though I did again in Bioshock Infinite) still sticks with me now.
Norman Jayden is probably one of my most memorable videogame characters thanks to Heavy Rain. I liked his voice acting and his cool glasses and I saw solving the case of the Origami killer a way of proving himself and getting over his drug addiction.
I was sat very late one night in the VR trying to solve where the Origami killer was. I had all the evidence in my hand and I couldn't put it together. I was panicked as Ethan had just had a meltdown as he didn't have the address and Madison had driven into the night after proving pretty useless. If I didn't find out where Shaun was he would die. I was so close to accusing Burke (wanker) yet I thought as satisfying as it would be he wouldnt be the killer.
The option to walk away came up and I was tempted to do it but I knew Norman was the man to solve the case. I finally figured out the location through the gas receipt and away I went.
The fight vs Shelby was the tensest I've ever been playing a game. I knew if I messed up these QTE's both Norman and Shaun would die and Shelby would get away with it. The part where you uppercut him with a piece of metal I nearly lept out of my seat. I let him die too.
My ending I was very happy with. Ethan with his son, Norman a hero and Madison was still a bit all over the shop.
Its got plot holes galore but I'll always love this games as it gives me great memories and it's got the good thing that you can ask people their story when talking about it.
Not good! Heavy Rain isn't a joke, there are some moments that hit you through gameplay (breakdown at the lockers, the finger test) as a good game should, but goddamn it wastes your time. Did anyone on staff stop to think about the story instead of blindly groping around for emotional responses? The ending is nonsense conjured up to justify the red herrings the directors wanted it to have (just like a real movie!) but couldn't earn because they didn't fully understand their own setting and characters. If they wanted a mystery, they shouldn't have given us a sci-fi toy that inexplicably provided 100% accurate explanations of clues. They lie to the player in cutscenes we have no reason to suspect and tell us the exact location of specific flowers in a throwaway gameplay segments - no ambiguity.
I still have some affection for Heavy Rain, for how it had rooms filled with hundreds of small objects as opposed to the repeating models of most games (eg two types of crates). It's seriously gorgeous. I wish the story was worth the world it took place in. ‘cause even the moment to moment stuff is pretty bullshit - the kids sound half their supposed age, Madison’s scenes are formulaic in a gross way (running from men interspersed with nursing Ethan) and dialog see-saws between stiff and melodramatic. Cliches are kicked up to 11, this killer leaves origami figures AND orchids.
Most of all: The death of a child is the sort of nightmare that can be in your thoughts every waking moment and still seem impossible. If you need magic and tragic backstories to establish empathy for that, hire a writer.
I really liked it, when I was playing it. But looking back on it, I felt the game was riddled with plot holes, and shelby being the murderer just feels dishonest when a core mechanic is essentially being able to listen to your character's internal monolog. However, the game looked great, and even though it failed as a whole story, a lot of the smaller moments between characters and many single scenes are fantastic. Everything I see about David Cage's work makes me more and more confident that what he excels at is more short stories as he can't seem to control such a large tale.
While walking controls were a pain, and a few of the police detective's sections were frustrating to find all the pieces of evidence to progress to the next area, I loved the controls. Playing the game felt very natural, and there were few moments I felt the button presses didn't have some logic to the action I was doing. I also particularly liked the UI quirks such as the shaking text by actions when you were more stressed, making it harder for you to read and pick the "right option"
I played the game much like David Cage has said it should be, a single play through running with whatever choices you did, no take backs. I must admit I felt very satisfied aside from one moment where I failed to save Shelby's partner, despite wanting to, I didn't realise pressing whichever button I did ment shelby would abandon his assistant. A friend did a "perfect" playthrough which admittedly has some cool moments, but it really didn't feel quite right to me. Which i guess it a testament to Heavy Rain creating what is ultimately "My Story" and I'm sure the game won't feel right if I played it differently.
Finally what I'm sure seems like an odd remark. But this is one of the few games I kinda felt like I didn't belong in as a gay man. Not that most games are super welcoming of this, but there is something about heavy rain that made feel particularly out of place, more so than in most games. I'm not sure if anyone would have any thoughts on this particular topic. (NOTE: I've expanded a little on this point, not with much good reason, but a bit in another post a bit later)
I guess I must sound overall pretty positive about the game... And I guess I am, but when i think back on it it's hard not to think of the game as a whole just not working despite elements of it being very good. Also, well done, maybe the most expensive Visual Novel ever made as well.
link6616 wrote:Finally what I'm sure seems like an odd remark. But this is one of the few games I kinda felt like I didn't belong in as a gay man. Not that most games are super welcoming of this, but there is something about heavy rain that made feel particularly out of place, more so than in most games. I'm not sure if anyone would have any thoughts on this particular topic.
I'm curious about this too. Heavy Rain tries for verisimilitude, so there's kind of an uncanny valley of reality. I'm a lesbian and HR gave me a few "where are all the woman at?" moments. Going by the wiki, there's 9 female characters and 37 male. I don't want to over-stress the point, it wasn't a game breaker, it's just that it was noticeably not a world like mine. Madison has one mission she talks to another woman in.
So what's the suggestion here? That Heavy Rain is somehow misogynistic? I totally disagree, and didn't get that at all, also I don't think my sexuality as a player really comes into it. Can either of you expand on these views? Why does the fact Madison doesn't have a lot to do with other women in the game come across anti-gay? Not really sure where you're coming from (interested to hear though.)
Heavy rain was my very first platinum. I bought this on launch day for 70 euro(60 quid roughly) and loved every second of it at the time. Looking back at it 3 years on, the tank like controls and moronic voice acting in some cases should have infuriated me, but it didn't.
While being(still) an excellent story, some of the situations now seem riddiculously inplausible, such as when Madison is strapped down to the table, or when Shelby throws cans to try to disarm the robber. Shelby also seemed like the weakest character(obviously) And although Ethan was obviously dedicated to saving his son(that cutting his finger off bit is still intense) he never seemed that motivated, which was odd, and Madisons involvement at all seemed a bit out of place.
Despite that though, it was still a great story. I never guessed the identity of the killer till the game revealed it, and for every seemingly out of place story bit, that was something that redeemed it, aforementioned finger bit, Ethan choosing whether or not to kill the man, the electric wires, being trapped in the car in the river. The controls however annoy me much more now than it did in 2010, and especially Jadens voice acting seems poor. Still a great game though, can't wait to see beyond.
hazeredmist wrote:So what's the suggestion here? That Heavy Rain is somehow misogynistic? I totally disagree, and didn't get that at all, also I don't think my sexuality as a player really comes into it. Can either of you expand on these views? Why does the fact Madison doesn't have a lot to do with other women in the game come across anti-gay? Not really sure where you're coming from (interested to hear though.)
Not misogyny, relatability. Obviously can't speak for link6616, but for me there was a disconnect. Like at the Blue Lagoon, Madison can speak to the bodyguard, the bartender and Paco. I wanted her to talk to the girl he'd been with and was hoping I could bribe someone into helping me out so it'd be two against one when we went upstairs. Which is normal - I doubt there's a single person on the planet whose plans 100% lined up with the implemented routes. The only difference is that with Madison and me it happened regularly as she just straight up refused to talk to female npcs unless they were in a nursing home. It's a lighter, drawn out version of that feeling when you select a dialog option in a rpg and the character does something unintended. Heavy Rain isn't homophobic, it just feels like a straight person wrote it. Which is true.
And again, that is normal. This isn't an accusation or even a complaint, it's the observation that Heavy Rain is close enough to reality that it's noticeable when things are different from my personal experience. Like I said, uncanny valley. I brought it up because it's not usually a feeling games get outta me; I've probably played shooters with no women and not noticed.
EDIT: Worried this sounds like whining, so reiterating it's an observation, like "God Hand has a lot of tall people" or "beer in Yakuza isn't very filling."
