Videogame Criticism

This is where you can deliberate anything relating to videogames - past, present and future
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

Todinho wrote: July 13th, 2017, 4:35 pm To me at least there's a big difference between a CRPG and an Action-RPG, in traditional RPGs combat,being turn based or not,follows a set of rules in short your attacks are dictated by dice rolls and numbers so there's a big difference to missing an attack because the dice didnt favor you or because you misjudged a swing.
This is just a matter of how and to which degree the CRPG in question choses to approximate the combat of a traditional RPG to begin with. How slavishly it sticks to luck and dice rolls or not. Even the most action based system, with luck out of the equation, is still based on stats and numbers (DEF, DMG, HP, etc.). And yes, that is also true for games of other genres that contain combat.
Todinho wrote: July 13th, 2017, 4:35 pmwhen you talk about classic CRPGs people rarely talk about their combat system they talk about the story and how you were able to build and roleplay in a variety of different ways, for instance the original Fallout can have multiple ways to handle the final boss 3 of which dont require you to fight him, hell you can even join him if you want and get a different ending and this throught the entire game with your interaction with other characters, the game has combat but it's one of the aspects of the game not the main one and not the main appeal, and appeal is very important I mean take movies or books unlike games they are all "mechanically" the same in game terms but a drama doesnt have the same appeal as a comedy and so on.
It depends on how far in the lineage of the CRPG you're willing to go. Fallout is a CRPG of the late nineties and is a far evolution of the early CRPGs that came out around the time of the genre's genesis. Wizardry, for example, surely isn't known for its story development, but rather for how the role(s) you want to play are defining for your character(s) abilities and strengths and weaknesses. And first person, slide style, dungeon navigation.
Todinho wrote: July 13th, 2017, 4:35 pmSo is dark souls appeal the same as say Witcher 2 or 3? To me at least the appeal is closer to something like Castlevania which isnt an RPG at all, so yeah game genres are funny like that it just never stops XD
Indeed it doesn't. :) To clarify, CRPG is an umbrella genre term in my mind, as in a computer version of a role playing game. Under that, you could make subgenre distinctions or be more descriptive about exactly what style of CRPG you're talking, i.e., a loot based, top down action RPG, a first person dungeon crawler, an open world CRPG or a CRPG heavy on narrative and player choice. I would consider SRPGs (Fire Emblem, Shining Force) and JRPGs, as in an offshoot genre that went into a completely different direction, ignoring the advancements and further evolution of CRPGs altogether and has very little to do with role playing (the nationality of the creators isn't always the deciding factor here, btw), as their full own genres, however.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

For if your don't mind another, perhaps more fresh, take on Spec Ops: The Line.

Joshihatsumitsu

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Joshihatsumitsu »

Michiel K wrote: July 29th, 2017, 2:05 pm For if your don't mind another, perhaps more fresh, take on Spec Ops: The Line.

Just to double down on Spec Ops, and why I still love the game - https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article ... y-bullshit

And one that is not Spec Ops, but rather distopian narratives in games and other media - https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article ... t-the-hero

And really, at this point, I should just link straight to Critical Distance, which does a fine job of collating these articles - I can't take any credit.
kintaris

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by kintaris »

https://gamehistory.org/writing-fund/

This looks like a pretty interesting project that might interest a few here. Most interestingly, it would appear that a writer can publish their editorials elsewhere, provided they flag up that gamehistory.org was used as a resource.

However as someone who has written for a few gaming entities, I do feel a little dubious about any new start-up. So many unfortunately don't understand how to build trust with their writers, or have a strong enough grasp of copyright.

I'd be intrigued to hear what you guys think about it.
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Craig
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Re: Videogame Criticism

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I've followed some of the main guys behind it, Frank Cifaldi and Steve Lin and I wouldn't worry about them mistreating others work. They've got a strong passion for what they do and have been actively involved in preservation efforts - Cifaldi and co were involved in getting Bio Force Ape to see the light of day, was behind the Megaman Legacy Collection (and ensuring it was authentic) and has done public speeches about the importance of emulation.

They're also very closely linked with professional journalists and game historians like Jeremy Parish (Cifaldi has been on Retronauts a lot and has been talking about setting up this foundation) so I've no doubt they have their heads on straight with regards to writer relations.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

Thanks for that link, Kintaris! Looks very interesting.
kintaris

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by kintaris »

Craig wrote: August 10th, 2017, 9:40 am I've followed some of the main guys behind it, Frank Cifaldi and Steve Lin and I wouldn't worry about them mistreating others work. They've got a strong passion for what they do and have been actively involved in preservation efforts - Cifaldi and co were involved in getting Bio Force Ape to see the light of day, was behind the Megaman Legacy Collection (and ensuring it was authentic) and has done public speeches about the importance of emulation.

They're also very closely linked with professional journalists and game historians like Jeremy Parish (Cifaldi has been on Retronauts a lot and has been talking about setting up this foundation) so I've no doubt they have their heads on straight with regards to writer relations.
I'll give them a follow myself!

I must admit that despite being a life-long gamer it's only since C&R that I've started getting interested in the technical and historical side of things - and now I'm hooked on it, of course. If I can find a comfortable niche in games history for myself I might try my hand at a piece.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Worth a read for the boldness of the first paragraph alone:

https://killscreen.com/articles/metroid ... nest-hour/

(And also because MP2 needs more love.)
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

^^^^ Excellent read, makes me want to give Echoes yet another chance, having found it very impenetrable and offputting in the past.

Nice mention of Andrew Jones, as well. I interviewed him once on his concept art for the Metroid Prime series.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Echoes is very much the Majora's Mask of the Prime trilogy. It's dark, oppressive, takes a lot of risks and sometimes outright alienates the player. That's why it's such a divisive title. For my part, I acknowledge that some elements don't really work, but I think that the stuff that does work elevates it to a classic. The boss fight mentioned in the article, Quadraxis, is one of the very best I've ever experienced, for example. I can totally understand why so many people are turned off by it, however.

Echoes is like an extreme and unforgiving version of Prime. Which is both a good and a bad thing.

My advice to you or to anyone else looking to play it properly is to make sure you have the time and the energy to really dive into it. It's not something you can just finish within a week over a couple of evening sessions. It really demands a lot of endurance and orientation from the player. As you said, impenetrable.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

Yeah, if I were to start it again, it would probably be the 3rd time I started all over again. I will do it some day, though.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

As someone who goes back to older games I've never played before only to discover truly engaging design elements and mechanics that seemingly have been left by the wayside, this video resonates with me so much.



Mind you, it's not a case of older always being better, as my recent side-by-side playing of Soul Reaver and Breath of the Wild has proven to me. :D
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

The title is clickbaity (what else is new?), but I found this a fairly nuanced and agreeable take on videogame difficulty following all the Cuphead hullabaloo:

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by KSubzero1000 »

I watched it yesterday and I agree with the gist of what he's saying. Consumers aren't directors and design by popular demand completely stifles creativity. Not everything is for everyone, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Challenging, demanding games are designed that way for a reason, and I certainly wouldn't want to see that design philosophy fade into obscurity in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. One comparison that comes to mind are rom-coms. Like most others of my demographic, I'm not exactly a fan of typical rom-coms. But that doesn't translate into me demanding that directors release romance-free versions of their movies. That would be completely absurd. No, it simply means that I tend not to watch them and that I hope those who do have a good time doing it. Simple as that. There's more than enough to go around and satisfy everyone, after all.

With that being said, I also think that the universal expectation of video games being combat-oriented by default is not healthy either. Which is why his mention of TLoU and Mass Effect made me chuckle - two games with such poor combat systems, I genuinely think the final products would have been improved if the developers had either: 1) been so bold as to cut it out entirely or 2) decided to spend the necessary resources to improve upon it early on during development. But what we got instead was shallow, "accessible" and repetitive combat, on account of this prevailing notion that this is an utterly mandatory part of any successful big budget title.

In short: I don't want an easy mode in my Dark Souls, but I certainly would have been more interested in Mass Effect if it had been conceived as a pure visual novel right from the start.
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Michiel K
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Michiel K »

Agreed on all counts.
Todinho

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Todinho »

As a big fan of the combat in TLOU I highly disagree in fact I'd say the gameplay in that game is vital for the story as well.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Oh sure, it's tense and atmospheric. But that's more due to the passive flow and direction than to the mechanical interaction itself. I think you'd be surprised how little would be lost if it was all replaced by a series of QTEs.
Todinho

Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by Todinho »

If that's the case you could say that about 99% of 3rd person shooters, what I find so compelling about the game play is the viceral feel to it, how stealth works getting in and out of it and how the AI reacts, resource management, the upgrades to weapons and character. I really do enjoy the entire system as a whole, some of the encounters could be better designed but I find the gameplay here alot more compelling then most 3rd person shooters.
In fact, to play the pretentious elitist here for a second, I'd that the "true experience" of TLoU can only be had if you play it on hard or above, Im joking but playing the game like that reminded me of that Myazaki quote about souls difficult in which he says that difficulty was never the point but it was a way to draw the player into the world, I feel very much that way in the case of Last of Us and other similar games that people dont usually associate story and gameplay.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by ThirdDrawing »

The whole argument is stupid.

If people were upfront about what their game is and who it's designed for, people wouldn't be having half these arguments. (I mean on the internet in general, not here!)

I mean I play SMT games, and they're just as hard, if not harder than games like Cuphead or Dark Souls - for different reasons. People laugh at the idea of a turn based JRPG being difficult but go play SMT Nocturne and see how well you do against Matador the first time.

Every genre has its difficult games. If you're prepared and know what you're getting into, it shouldn't be that much of a deal for you, even if you suck at it. I *really* suck at platformers and I rarely (if ever) play them. But when I do, I'm able to steel myself mentally and know I'm going to get stuck at points and have difficulty.
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Re: Videogame Criticism

Post by KSubzero1000 »

I'm glad you like the game so much, Todinho, but I completely disagree about the specific issues associated with TLoU being present in 99% of third-person shooters. In fact, I would argue that both Uncharted and TLou are quite unique in how artificial and shallow all of their systems are being designed. Please note that I'm not disagreeing with what you said regarding the visceral feel of it all - it's indeed great, but it's only thanks to various smokes and mirrors. Peek a little behind the curtain and the illusion of interactivity becomes rather obvious. On a sliding scale of Presentation vs. Interaction, TLoU is certainly closer to Telltale's The Walking Dead than to Vanquish.

These guys have said it way better than I ever could, however:





With all that said, these design choices have certainly struck a chord with many players such as yourself, which means that Naughty Dog definitely knows how to please their fanbase. I hope you'll like the sequel as well!
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