The ongoing loot box and microtransaction discussion...

[KSubzero1000]

Ain’t no union going to fix that.

Well from your inside perspective, what would be the ideal outcome in regards to these issues such as game pricing, microtransactions, lootboxes, etc...? Are there any specific changes that you would like to see occur within the industry?

[kintaris]

I’ll tell you one thing, it’s fucking hard to get out of bed in the morning to make video games when all you see is a constant stream of ‘devs are evil’ on twitter and YouTube and forums.

Ain’t no union going to fix that.

(The ‘shitty working practices’ thing is part of the reason I don’t do AAA console dev anymore, mobile is actually a far nicer place to work to be honest. But almost no one on this forum thinks that entire industry has any value either, so I wonder why I even come here anymore some days)

I love mobile games Flabyo, don't leave!

[ratsoalbion]

But almost no one on this forum thinks that entire industry has any value either, so I wonder why I even come here anymore some days)

I don’t believe that’s true at all. Especially not here, particularly when compared to many other places on the internet.

[Todinho]

I’ll tell you one thing, it’s fucking hard to get out of bed in the morning to make video games when all you see is a constant stream of ‘devs are evil’ on twitter and YouTube and forums.

Ain’t no union going to fix that.

(The ‘shitty working practices’ thing is part of the reason I don’t do AAA console dev anymore, mobile is actually a far nicer place to work to be honest. But almost no one on this forum thinks that entire industry has any value either, so I wonder why I even come here anymore some days)

Look Im no game dev but I get working your hardest under less then ideal conditions, of having a thousand problems happen outside of your control but that doesnt matter you still get blamed for it ,of giving your best in something you care about and still getting shit on by others at every single turn.
But in this case the anger isnt coming out of nowhere it's happening because of decisions made by the people at the top,I mean just look at Monster Hunter World right now, the devs there must be over the moon, everybody loves their game, it's super successfull and there's no bullshit attached so all the forum posts and internet videos are people saying how much they like it, because people like to be happy and excited about videogames. Now compare that to Battlefront 2 that was poised to be an improvement on the first game at every aspect until it was fucked over by bussiness trying to milk the most money possible out of it, this anger the fault of players? No! Everybody wanted a great game both gamers and game developers it was the fucking corporations fault that it all turned into a gigantic dumpster fire.

That's why I said consumers and devs should be allies and not placed against one another, we want the same thing which is to see awesome games and be happy about it, the ones who dont and only care about profit are the bastards at top with all the money, that's who's driving people out of the industry.

[Flabyo]

But almost no one on this forum thinks that entire industry has any value either, so I wonder why I even come here anymore some days)

I don’t believe that’s true at all. Especially not here, particularly when compared to many other places on the internet.

Oh yeah, definitely compared to elsewhere things here are great. But the undercurrent is still there. I’m over sensitive to it of course, because it touches directly on what I spend the bulk of my time doing, but it’s a constant chipping away everywhere I go on the internet and on days when my depression is really kicking my arse it’s something I should probably avoid.

Honestly I don’t really have a particularly good solution for the loot box problem. I have massive cognitive dissonance about the things, because I know that without them entire sections of the mobile industry simply cease to exist. I’m not a fan of them in single player focused titles, but I’m ok with cosmetic ones in mp focused games if that means I’m not having to buy maps or season passes to keep the server lights on because other people are subsidising me.

The gambling aspect is troubling, but I’d prefer to see an industry wide common reaction to it rather than leaving it to the scattershot legislation it looks like we might be getting instead. But instead of proper debate about it online we’re getting an endless parade of shouty man YouTube videos and it just tires me out.

[Michiel K]

I’ll tell you one thing, it’s fucking hard to get out of bed in the morning to make video games when all you see is a constant stream of ‘devs are evil’ on twitter and YouTube and forums.

Anyone who subscribes to some sort of 'devs are evil' thought pattern is terribly misguided. I sincerely believe most developers just want to make great games. Any possible consumer anger should be directed at the publishers, really.

The gambling aspect is troubling, but I’d prefer to see an industry wide common reaction to it rather than leaving it to the scattershot legislation it looks like we might be getting instead. But instead of proper debate about it online we’re getting an endless parade of shouty man YouTube videos and it just tires me out.

Ain't that the truth. And that's the ethically dubious way YouTube guys make their money. By shouting and playing the demagogue.

[KSubzero1000]

And that's the ethically dubious way YouTube guys make their money. By shouting and playing the demagogue.

If only that phenomenon was limited to various YouTube guys!

[Michiel K]

Ha, yeah.

[Simonsloth]

Just wanted to add my thoughts.

I suppose my perspective is that I have no problem with paying if I’m enjoying something. If it’s “free to play” then I expect or even feel obliged to pay if I’m enjoying a game. I admit it probably stings more when you’ve paid 50 pounds for a game then find that others have an unfair advantage because they have paid extra but this doesn’t bother me. Possibly because I’m not very good so even the best guns in my hands wouldn’t be much use.

Flabyo I know it’s difficult not to be disheartened. I work in healthcare in the UK so every day I’m being battered by politicians, media and patients who have no idea how difficult it is to work in an under resourced environment trying to do the same job as 50 years ago. I don’t want to compare the two but industry has changed but people’s perspective is slow to change.

I get unhelpful often vexatious comments on forums, verbal and physical abuse on a regular basis all while trying to do my job with a smile. It makes it difficult to go to work so although I can’t truly understand your situation I can relate a little. All I can say is that when I do get the odd bit of praise or appreciation it means a great deal.

So with that being said I am glad games developers like you plough on despite the pressures and stresses because without you I wouldn’t have something which relieves mine.

[Chopper]

Well said

[KSubzero1000]

Interesting Extra Credits episode about the whole situation. And the ending seems to suggest that certain drastic regulations might be coming soon! I can totally see both sides of this issue, so I'm curious to see how it will all play out.

[KSubzero1000]

The Netherlands and Belgium have recently declared loot boxes to be illegal gambling and the Belgian Minister of Justice has threatened publishers with fines and prison sentences. Unsurprisingly, EA "doesn't agree" with the ruling.

Eurogamer
BBC

Thoughts?

[Flabyo]

The two governmens have actually defined different thresholds for what is acceptable. The Belgian definition is stricter.

If this does become law (bear in mind it isn’t, yet) then I suspect most publishers would just pull out of those countries completely. I doubt they’re big enough markets to offset the cost of having to provide builds of games with completely different monetisation.

It’ll be a while before anything happens here though. As amusing as it would be for some, you can’t easily just say to a company doling multi million dollars of business in your country that they’re now not legal, especially if the practice isn’t deemed illegal elsewhere in the EU (remember that the entire EU is supposed to have unified trading law, it’s a large part of the point of it).

So there’s a lot of sound and fury out there right now, but there’s also months of trade negotiation and debate to be had at various levels of the legislature before anything happens. Maybe the agreement will be a new license model, or a higher rate of vat, or some other form of taxation. I’d be amazed if anyone attempts to actually indict an individual for this, who would you imprison? The US would hardly extradite an American CEO, especially with its current president.

[Suits]

If this does become law (bear in mind it isn’t, yet) then I suspect most publishers would just pull out of those countries completely. I doubt they’re big enough markets to offset the cost of having to provide builds of games with completely different monetisation.

Do you not think EA would just simply sell a version of FIFA without FUT to these countries, or disable it for the region ??

It would seem a bit daft to just simply stop selling a successful product in a county because of a possible knee-jerk reaction, to what is clearly a hot topic at the moment.

[KSubzero1000]

I’d be amazed if anyone attempts to actually indict an individual for this, who would you imprison? The US would hardly extradite an American CEO, especially with its current president.

Well... I wouldn't be opposed to a squad of hardened Benelux special forces infiltrating the US in order to apprehend Andrew Wilson in the middle of his E3 presentation and him being later prosecuted in The Hague for gambling crimes. Try and tell me this doesn't sound funny to you.

[Flabyo]

It doesn’t sound funny to me. But maybe that’s because I work in the industry and know dozens of people personally whose jobs are going to be affected by this, whatever the eventual outcome is.

[KSubzero1000]

I was obviously being facetious. But surely legislation ought to have the best interests of the wider population at heart? If only laws that didn't affect anyone were ever put into writing, nothing would ever get done.

I think the main issue here is that it's going to be the little guys paying the price for these dubious practices, and not the high-ranking decisions makers who are getting rich off of this. I can definitely agree with that.

[Flabyo]

Oh I don’t disagree. This is something that does need to be addressed. But it needs to be done in a consistent manner, and we’ve already got with only two countries a completely different definition of what is and isn’t legal (Belgium says Overwatch is infringing, Holland says it isn’t, just to give one example)

It’s going to be a mess of red tape, and lots of things that you might not have even thought are in this discussion will be taken out by it too.

I’m more in favour of the licence or taxation approach to solving this, but these bodies seem more interested in generating headlines than actually talking to the industry and working out a solution. (When asked about why physical trading card games aren't affected, the Belgian lawmaker said ‘they’ve been around for years with no problems so we’re fine with them’, that kind of inconsistency in approach means this would sit in appeal courts for years)

The last thing the public needs is another ‘we know it when we see it’ kind of law. Those are always a mess.

[Alex79]

(The ‘shitty working practices’ thing is part of the reason I don’t do AAA console dev anymore, mobile is actually a far nicer place to work to be honest. But almost no one on this forum thinks that entire industry has any value either, so I wonder why I even come here anymore some days)

Well, I assume it's for the relatively friendly and intelligent discussion about video games rather than affirmation of your career choices?

But joking aside, I don't think most people are actually down on mobile gaming. I love it. If I find a good mobile game I tend to put far more time in to it than any triple A release, simply because my phone is always with me. There's a lot of crap about, and I'm not sure how I feel about free to play overall, but handled right it can work just fine. There are lots of recent examples of games that have implemented it well on mobile I think. PUBG, Fortnite, Darts Of Fury to name a couple. But then I do like the model of pay once, too. I tend to play those games for longer because of the financial investment, but I totally understand why microtransactions are more popular than ever right now.

[Flabyo]

Well, I for one totally trust our current prime minster to create a fair and just interpretation of the Lords recommendation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253195