Ghost of Tsushima

[Flabyo]

Sorry about being so flippant there, but it kinda bugs me when people shit on ‘modern game design’ when it’s a style of game design I actually really like precisely *because* it doesn’t take pleasure in trying to break me when all I’m wanting to do is relax with a videogame.

I started Nier Automata the other day, and while I can clearly see the craft in it, it hates me and wants me to hate it because I don’t have the patience in my life anymore to ‘git gud’.

[KSubzero1000]

I started Nier Automata the other day, and while I can clearly see the craft in it, it hates me and wants me to hate it because I don’t have the patience in my life anymore to ‘git gud’.

And I'm sorry for being so flippant too, but something tells me you would find it a tad ridiculous to hear somebody claim that comic books were "hating them" because they had decided they didn't have the patience to read anymore and only wanted to look at the pretty pictures from now on.

all I’m wanting to do is relax with a videogame.

In all seriousness, that's perfectly fine and more power to you. It looks like this game is explicitly catering to your sensibilities and I hope you have a good time with it. But some of us do prefer to have a tiny bit more interaction in our interactive medium instead of being passively entertained, and looking at the general state of the industry at the moment, it's pretty clear who's getting the short end of the stick.


Anyway, on a purely audiovisual level, this game is indeed very impressive. Photo Mode in particular seems dope. Hope you all have fun with it!

[Scrustle]

I quite liked that demo in general. Some stuff is really appealing, but other stuff I'm still unsure on. The visual design and world look great. That looks like a world I want to poke around in and take in the atmosphere. I also really like the emphasis on making navigation feel natural, particularly with the wind mechanics. That's such a great idea, so much better than just following a blip on a minimap. Also, I just like wind in games in general. I think it's pretty underrated. Adding wind does a lot to make a game world feel real and alive.

Not sure on that combat though. The idea of having different stances has potential, but I'd need to see more about how it actually works. The parry thing has me sort of worried though. That doesn't look like the satisfying kind of parry you might see in MGR or DMC. I'm more getting flashbacks to the combat in the old AC games where you just stand there and wait for an enemy to come to you, and then you just finish them in one easy move. But again, I need to see more.

[Alex79]

I started Nier Automata the other day, and while I can clearly see the craft in it, it hates me and wants me to hate it because I don’t have the patience in my life anymore to ‘git gud’.

And I'm sorry for being so flippant too, but something tells me you would find it a tad ridiculous to hear somebody claim that comic books were "hating them" because they had decided they didn't have the patience to read anymore and only wanted to look at the pretty pictures from now on.

Well how about a visual novel where every third word was in one of 15 random languages and the game asks you to go and look up what it means but all you wanted to do was relax and enjoy a story?

[ratsoalbion]

The idea that a game isn’t as ‘interactive’ because it doesn’t demand as much practise or skill to experience is fundamentally a flawed one, in my opinion.

I accept that modern AAA design generally does ‘demand’ less of the player, but it offers other, equally valid forms of interactivity.

As someone he enjoys all kinds of different design philosophies and is keenly aware of the variety of experiences available, I believe the various approaches - and those who enjoy one more than another - deserve similar respect.

[ratsoalbion]

I started Nier Automata the other day, and while I can clearly see the craft in it, it hates me and wants me to hate it because I don’t have the patience in my life anymore to ‘git gud’.

I'm surprised. Difficulty is subjective and all that but I really didn't find Nier: A to be an especially challenging game (on normal) for the most part.

[OldBailey]

I sympathize with both viewpoints here. Speaking for myself, I've come to terms with the fact that this style of modern AAA games design is, in general, not to my taste. It doesn't stop me from being disappointed when a game I like the look of turns out to be another "one of those" but the fact is that they sell. A lot.

I often find myself wishing for more mechanical depth in these types of game, but I do wonder if it's perhaps a little selfish of me to criticize the design when there are clearly an enormous number of people who enjoy them. That being said, I don't think its fair to deny this criticism either.

However, these are games that are built for people who enjoy experiencing a story and simply existing in an expansive, beautifully rendered and immersive game world. Leon and especially Jay, talk about it a lot on the podcast and while it often isn't enough for me (certainly not to sustain the hundred odd hours these games can often demand), I do see the appeal for others.

Personally, I feel the sheer breadth of games we get these days means I can always find something new that caters to my tastes. As long as I'm still getting my Doom Eternals and Streets of Rage 4s, I'm glad these games exist for those that enjoy them (even if I do moan about it from time to time )

[KSubzero1000]

Well how about a visual novel where every third word was in one of 15 random languages and the game asks you to go and look up what it means but all you wanted to do was relax and enjoy a story?

Alex, please.

This is an absurd comparison. There is no action game equivalent to what you're describing.

The idea that a game isn’t as ‘interactive’ because it doesn’t demand as much practise or skill to experience is fundamentally a flawed one, in my opinion.

I disagree. I don't think that "interaction" is as vaguely defined of a concept as you make it sound. Shall we calculate the 'amount of precise button input per minute of gameplay'-ratio in RDR2 and compare it to SoR4's?

I accept that modern AAA design generally does ‘demand’ less of the player, but it offers other, equally valid forms of interactivity.

Well, there are plenty of games whose primary method of interaction is mainly cerebral as opposed to execution-based. The problem is that pushing the stick for 5 minutes in the direction of the GPS and tapping a few buttons while fighting heavily telegraphing enemies in order to "liberate an outpost" doesn't exactly require any thought process either. That was an issue with the very first AC and is still an issue now.

If we're stretching the definition of "interactivity" to incorporate purely subjective concepts like "immersion", then sure, all video games are equally interactive. But I think the word kinda loses its meaning then.

As someone he enjoys all kinds of different design philosophies and is keenly aware of the different experiences available, I believe the various approaches - and those who enjoy one more than another - deserve similar respect.

See, when you put it like that, I completely agree with you. 100%. Respect is always key and I think it should go both ways.

The problem is that, in practice, it doesn't go both ways and that gameplay considerations are regularly being dismissed and treated as arbitrary ("hateful"!) impediments to the player's enjoyment / "relaxation" by the industry at large, to be truncated and simplified at every turn in order to maximize revenue. It's pretty obvious where most people's priorities lie these days. And as such, turning one's nose up at gameplay mechanics is a much more socially acceptable attitude than dismissing storytelling out of hand (which is also a very immature position to take in my opinion).

But yeah, mutual respect would be nice.

[ratsoalbion]

Shall we calculate the 'amount of precise button input per minute of gameplay'-ratio in RDR2 and compare it to SoR4's?

Speaking of absurd comparisons, this is about as pedantic and flimsy an argument around 'measuring' interaction as I can concieve of.

I'm currently playing Gradius III which demands hundreds of button presses and directional inputs per minute, but it's also brutally unfair and ultimately the button presses are near 'meaningless'.
Meanwhile I'm playing modern AAA design banquet Days Gone and having a more 'meaningful' and satisfying time with it in almost every respect. And I bloody love retro 2D shmups.

[KSubzero1000]

...I think we're talking past one another here, Leon.

[Flabyo]

I started Nier Automata the other day, and while I can clearly see the craft in it, it hates me and wants me to hate it because I don’t have the patience in my life anymore to ‘git gud’.

I'm surprised. Difficulty is subjective and all that but I really didn't find Nier: A to be an especially challenging game (on normal) for the most part.

You have to complete the entire opening section, more than an hour of play, with no chance to save and no continues.

It’s... an odd decision.

[Alex79]

Well how about a visual novel where every third word was in one of 15 random languages and the game asks you to go and look up what it means but all you wanted to do was relax and enjoy a story?

Alex, please.

This is an absurd comparison. There is no action game equivalent to what you're describing.

Quite. It's as absurd as comparing an action game to reading comics!

My point was that sometimes you just want to play or read or enjoy something without having to learn complicated systems or even particularly practice to get good. Sometimes you just want to be entertained.

[Flabyo]

But yeah, mutual respect would be nice.

When you find a way to discuss things without talking down at us for not agreeing, then you’ll earn some mutual respect.

[KSubzero1000]

My point was that sometimes you just want to play or read or enjoy something without having to learn complicated systems or even particularly practice to get good. Sometimes you just want to be entertained.

Yes, I understand what you mean. But my point is that this way of treating slightly more demanding elements as disposable and antithetical to fun is quite unique to the video game medium in a way which I think has problematic ramifications. That's what I'm trying to illustrate by way of comparisons to other mediums.

Anyway, I appear to have ruffled some feathers so I'll leave it at that. Peace and love all around and sorry if I didn't articulate myself properly. I hope the game fulfills everybody's expectations.

[Alex79]

...my point is that this way of treating slightly more demanding elements as disposable and antithetical to fun is quite unique to the video game medium...

But I don't think it is. I think film is rampant with that kind of attitude as well, which is why millions more people will go and see Avengers at the cinema rather than the Croatian arthouse neo-noir picture. That's why the charts are filled with bubblegum pop and easy indie hits rather than progressive jazz. Mainstream is mainstream for a reason, it's the most easily accessible and easily digested. But the niche stuff will always exist.

[OldBailey]

Whilst there is nothing wrong with wanting simple entertainment, from games or any other media, there's also no harm in wishing these AAA games could offer more complexity for those that might want it.

Complexity doesn't have to come at the expense of accessibility. Forgive me going on a tangent here but take Breath of the Wild for example which for me, shows that you can simultaneously cater to both crowds without compromising on depth.

All of it's interactable elements are relatively simple in terms of execution, but there is incredible mechanical depth afforded by it's systems interactions, physics engine etc. To use Ksub's example of the simple act of moving from one place to another; in many AAA open world games, it's true that you're often doing little more than holding a button and following some sort of marker.

In BOTW not only do you have to find locations using your own observational and deductive skill, you also have to consider the geography, the weather, your stamina etc. You then have multiple methods of traversal and often have to make skillful or clever use of your equipment, items and abilities to get there.

This kinds of design also extends to the combat and puzzles and affords so much freedom to the player to use their creativity in problem solving.

None of these elements are especially taxing but the game is constantly giving you all these micro decisions to which there are any number of solutions which is in part what makes the game so compelling.

Whilst BOTW does have some detractors (what game doesn't?!) I think most people would agree that it's not particularly stressful, doesn't require mastery of complex controls or systems and manages to be simultaneously incredibly relaxing and super engaging to play. It's entirely possible to simply ignore many of the possibilities the game affords you, but the depth is there if you want it.

Granted not every developer is Nintendo but I was dearly hoping that it's lessons would be learned by other devs when it came to their own open world game design. Whilst a game like Ghost of Tsushima is clearly not aimed at me, I'm still disappointed when I see so many games exhibiting influence from the Ubisoft or Rockstar model and not something more mechanically ambitious.

These games clearly have different priorities from something like BOTW but I don't believe it makes them above criticism for their often broad but shallow design philosophy.

This is not a criticism of people who do enjoy this style of game, I genuinely wish I could too! I love the idea of these sweeping open world epics, they just rarely hold my attention for very long.

[Flabyo]

And why do Ubisoft get picked on as the creator of this anyway? We were doing this style of gameplay on the Fable games years before even ac1 was a thing...

[Alex79]

I wish they'd remaster the Fable trilogy and bring it out for Switch

[OldBailey]

Haha! I think it's the sheer number of these games that they pump out and the extent to which their formula has been emulated. If I hadn't seen the Ragnarok trailer already and somebody showed me the gameplay footage of Ghost and told me it was the new Assassin's Creed, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid.
Show me a single screenshot from Fable and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mistake it for anything else! That game was very unique at the time, and still is in many ways.

[Alex79]

First review I've seen, 3 out of 5 in the Guardian.

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproj ... tic-combat

I must admit that when, after slaughtering untold hordes and successfully storming an actual castle, I was asked to collect some moss for someone, I rather lost the will to go on.

EDIT: But it's got 9/10 on both IGN and Push Square.