Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

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Superuser
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Re: 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by Superuser »

The reveal that you're Big Boss' “double” felt very rushed and out of the blue, but most of all, undeserved. You're supposed to believe that your character, someone who was never mentioned before outside of this game's context, is as good as "The Greatest Warrior of the 20th Century”. If it was someone we knew, like Frank Jaeger for example, it could have been a great reveal or at least have a little more gravitas, and the suspension of disbelief wouldn't be ruined since the facial reconstruction technology they have in the game seems to be way more advanced than the one we have in the real world, but as it stands, it falls flat on its face because at no point we have any sort of attachment to the unnamed medic.
I interpreted this very differently. This is in fact my favourite part of the twist. It's the notion that Big Boss is an idea, a legend that was constructed rather than born. Big Boss the man defeated The Boss in personal combat. Big Boss, the legend of the battlefield is a different entity. This is a theme repeated throughout the series, that image is different to the reality, and that image can be cultivated to suit your career or political needs.

On Mother Base, everyone has innate abilities to some degree, but they can all be trained and surpass Venom Snake. However, your actions as Venom - who let's face it, is probably the one you'll end up playing as due to his bionic arm, are actually building towards the legend of Big Boss, driving home how artificial and Machiavellian he is. In general the series plays with the idea of identity and how it can be made and unmade. So I wholly accept and endorse this aspect of the twist.

Going a bit beyond this, Kojima wanted to speak to the player directly. Now this part was a little more hamfisted than the above(that Big Boss is an identity/notion as opposed to a specific person) - but I'm sure we can agree that if it was an established character like Frank Jaeger [Gray Fox, for the uninitiated], it wouldn't have spoken to the player but would have entirely been about MGS lore. The point was that anyone can be Big Boss, the player included. More importantly, it's the point that Big Boss is an ideal, a Platonic form, not a specific person. I feel that's what they were driving at and I like this take a great deal, and I find it concordant with the series' themes.

What annoyed me personally, as expanded on in my review, is all the other plot stuff preceding it. I thought the twist was very nearly the sole decent moment in what was otherwise a boring and very thin plot, completely uninteresting characters and a bunch of filler missions inbetween that served no narrative purpose.
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Re: 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by Simonsloth »

I was going to try and be clever in this response but I’ll leave that to the wordsmiths and scholars in the forum.

To me Ground Zeroes is to Metal Gear Solid V what the tanker demo was to Metal Gear Solid 2. It’s essentially the start of the game carved off and served up as an appetiser before the main meal. There are obvious differences such as the formal challenges and alternative modes but in the tanker demo I made my own so to me not that different. What has changed however is me. I don’t have the free time and inclination to repeatedly play any game even a metal gear solid one. I didn’t have the time to mess around like in that tanker where I knew every nook, cranny and enemy position. So on release I played the brief story mode which took me about 30 minutes and then messed around with some of the side modes for a hour or two and put it away. My completion percentage sat at about 20% when it was placed on the shelf to gather dust. This was the first metal gear solid game which had been sequestered away so quickly.

I don’t think with all honesty I would have gone back if it were not for the Cane and Rinse scheduling. Given the series is still my favourite of all time my nonplussed attitude towards Ground Zeroes was a big deal. I felt that in order to make a meaningful contribution I needed to replay it. Certain members of this forum were indirectly taunting me with their complete trophy lists too which added an extra incentive.

I fired it up and tried to do one of the side missions and I quickly got frustrated as I couldn’t remember the controls and the mechanics so died over and over again. I turned off slightly appalled at how rubbish I was but also at the bad taste it left me with.

After a bit of Pilotwings 64 and Dyad tapas I decided at the very least I would give the short Ground Zeroes story mode a whirl. Within minutes I had goosebumps. Without the silly, overly dramatic slightly cartoonish characters and plot line the series isn’t quite the same. It’s bizarre how much slack I was then willing to afford the game after watching a few minutes of cutscenes. This mode also acts as tutorial so very quickly I was back into the game transforming my bumbling oaf who set off every alarm into a S Rank achieving ghost. Dodging explosions while sprinting across the battlefield prisoner on my shoulders as my helicopter swoops in pumping out flight of valkyries is simply wonderful. I was soon back in love and on the path to 100% completion. I also realised that obtaining higher ranks unlocked extra weapons and bonuses which made subsequent playthroughs easier and importantly more fun.

.The gameplay is excellent but it is the window dressing of the plot and overall bonkers Kojima-isms which raise the series to excellence. The main mission completion cutscene is fantastic and the right kind of preposterous. I suppose it is one’s perception of these parts which can elevate the game from greatness to excellence.

This podcast is about reasoned, measured responses but there’s something about this series, these games which gives me butterflies. I unashamedly am in love again and will be tying up every loose end before replaying Phantom Pain a game which I put more than 100 hours into and vowed never to touch again as it consumed me for better or worse.

3 word review: Zero to Hero

(I’m hoping you open or close the show with Here’s to you - I know it’s a licensed track but you’ve got to)
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Re: 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Simonsloth wrote: August 1st, 2019, 5:06 pm I was going to try and be clever in this response but I’ll leave that the wordsmiths and scholars in the forum.
...Did you solve it? :)
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Re: 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by Simonsloth »

Nope you’re too smart for me.

You might need to edit your post now the podcast has been split
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Re: Our next-but-one podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by NiaiMitch »

Game-play wise for me, Ground Zeroes achieved a similar (albeit less iconic) effect as the Tanker section of MGS2 - a wonderful, endlessly replayable microcosm of gameplay.

Story-wise though, it really left a bitter taste in my mouth - specifically the depiction of Paz's fate, which I found deeply, pointlessly disturbing. What was the purpose of seeing her internal organs during the bomb extraction scene, the twisted revelation that the villain had planted a bomb in her genitals, or the collectable audio tapes detailing her forced rape by Chico in captivity? It's pure unearned shock value at best, vulgar misogyny at worst.

I remember reading around the time of the game's release about how Kojima really wanted to push the limits of what we were accustomed to seeing in games, arguing that until developers did this they would continue to be seen as a juvenile medium not worthy of a seat at the high table alongside films and television. And don't get me wrong, the medium of games absolutely should be free to explore the darkest places the human imagination is capable of. But especially when your medium is interactive, presentation and context is absolutely everything. And I think in this instance Kojima-San got in over his head and unfortunately undermined his own mission-statement.
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Re: Our next-but-one podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by KSubzero1000 »

NiaiMitch wrote: August 10th, 2019, 9:20 pm What was the purpose of seeing her internal organs during the bomb extraction scene, the twisted revelation that the villain had planted a bomb in her genitals, or the collectable audio tapes detailing her forced rape by Chico in captivity? It's pure unearned shock value at best, vulgar misogyny at worst.
I don't think it qualifies as "unearned" shock value to draw the audience's attention to the type of very real human rights violations that are happening everyday in the real world during military operations. Ground Zeroes takes some very clear inspiration from the numerous crimes committed by certain US intelligence agencies, for example. The parallels between Camp Omega and Guantanamo Bay in particular are undeniable. A place which has seen its fair share of inhumane treatment of prisoners over the years, including sexual torture. And there are plenty of other examples of real-life events that would bear similarities to the in-game events you're describing.

Gratuitously violent scenes set in scenarios that have absolutely no correlation to real-life violence would qualify as having unearned shock value to me (like, say, a certain scene in Gears of War 2, for example). MGS has always had a very distinct anti-war message and tried to underline the danger of nuclear proliferation or the psychological cost of war in some of its past entries. Human rights violations doesn't seem like much of a leap when you consider the narrative and thematic pedigree of the franchise.

I find it highly questionable that games like CoD can somehow rehash the same simplistic jingoistic framework of "Good Soldiers™ vs. Bad Soldiers™" every year without facing any serious philosophical backlash, but that a game like Ground Zeroes with its overt mission statement would instantly get scrutinized for knowingly making the audience uncomfortable as a way of underlining the gravity of its subject matter.

As for the alleged misogyny: Sexual violence against women during armed conflicts is a very real thing as well. And if anything, there are barely any mainstream story-tellers willing to address the issue head-on. There is a massive distinction to be made between a work of fiction that portrays violence against women as a serious and traumatic event and one that plays it for laughs or cheap thrills. Showing something doesn't mean endorsing it.

I said it last time the subject came up, but I think it bears repeating: "Misogyny can't simply be diagnosed by combining anything female with general discomfort felt when watching / reading. Intent, nuance and context matter."

NiaiMitch wrote: August 10th, 2019, 9:20 pm But especially when your medium is interactive, presentation and context is absolutely everything.
I mean, we're talking about non-interactive cutscenes and audio tapes here. It's not like the game puts the player in charge of participating in the events as some sort of twisted mini-game.

May I ask how the presentation or the context should have been altered in regards to the game's interactive nature?

Because if this type of content would be acceptable in a film but is automatically deemed excessive because it's in a video game, then that very much proves Kojima's point about the medium's lack of respectability. There are plenty of films with even more graphic content in them, after all. The purpose of this scene isn't to amuse or entertain the player. It's a shocking scene because it's a shocking subject matter. And I think a lot of players ultimately want to have it both ways. They want the medium to mature in theory, but insist on viewing it as disposable, player empowerment-centered pop culture no matter what.
NiaiMitch

Re: Our next-but-one podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by NiaiMitch »

Thanks for the reply KSubzero - it's an interesting can of worms! :)
KSubzero1000 wrote: August 10th, 2019, 10:31 pm I don't think it qualifies as "unearned" shock value to draw the audience's attention to the type of very real human rights violations that are happening everyday in the real world during military operations. Ground Zeroes takes some very clear inspiration from the numerous crimes committed by certain US intelligence agencies, for example. The parallels between Camp Omega and Guantanamo Bay in particular are undeniable. A place which has seen its fair share of inhumane treatment of prisoners over the years, including sexual torture. And there are plenty of other examples of real-life events that would bear similarities to the in-game events you're describing.

Gratuitously violent scenes set in scenarios that have absolutely no correlation to real-life violence would qualify as having unearned shock value to me (like, say, a certain scene in Gears of War 2, for example). MGS has always had a very distinct anti-war message and tried to underline the danger of nuclear proliferation or the psychological cost of war in some of its past entries. Human rights violations doesn't seem like much of a leap when you consider the narrative and thematic pedigree of the franchise.
Totally with you - and as I say I don't think it's unworthy subject matter, my point is simply that if you're going to tackle the topics this game does, it has to be done extremely carefully. When I say it's unearned I suppose what I'm more referring to is the brevity of the Ground Zeroes scenario which I don't think gives the subject matter much room to breathe. And while it's true that the series has always been interested in heavy themes around the ethics of war, I think it's fair to say that there's a significant difference in the presentation here.
KSubzero1000 wrote: August 10th, 2019, 10:31 pm As for the alleged misogyny: Sexual violence against women during armed conflicts is a very real thing as well. And if anything, there are barely any mainstream story-tellers willing to address the issue head-on. There is a massive distinction to be made between a work of fiction that portrays violence against women as a serious and traumatic event and one that plays it for laughs or cheap thrills. Showing something doesn't mean endorsing it.
Absolutely, and I wasn't implying that Kojima was endorsing it. I just felt the body horror stuff was needlessly gratuitous and I don't actually think it served a sufficient purpose in terms of an intended statement re: sexual violence against women in war (and I do anticipate I'd feel the same way seeing these scenes in a film). I guess I also found it problematic that they chose to represent this with the established character of Paz, who's treachery was revealed at the end of Peace Walker. Clearly the game treats what happens to her with the utmost seriousness, but given that she was the established villain in the previous title, I couldn't ignore a possible reading that this was on some level intended to be her comeuppance, which is troubling.
KSubzero1000 wrote: August 10th, 2019, 10:31 pmI mean, we're talking about non-interactive cutscenes and audio tapes here. It's not like the game puts the player in charge of participating in the events as some sort of twisted mini-game.

May I ask how the presentation or the context should have been altered in regards to the game's interactive nature?
I could have done without the collectable tapes of Paz being raped - the format this was presented in I just felt was pretty crass.
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Re: Our next-but-one podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by KSubzero1000 »

NiaiMitch wrote: August 11th, 2019, 4:13 am And while it's true that the series has always been interested in heavy themes around the ethics of war, I think it's fair to say that there's a significant difference in the presentation here.
It is fair to say. I would imagine that the reason for that is pretty banal and has more to do with technological advancement than anything else. Portraying this type of stuff with MGS1/MGS2 level of graphical fidelity would have been pretty goofy. Combined with the more tragic and serious narrative tone of this entry, and I suppose that's why Kojima thought it necessary to push the envelope a bit further this time around.

NiaiMitch wrote: August 11th, 2019, 4:13 am I guess I also found it problematic that they chose to represent this with the established character of Paz, who's treachery was revealed at the end of Peace Walker. Clearly the game treats what happens to her with the utmost seriousness, but given that she was the established villain in the previous title, I couldn't ignore a possible reading that this was on some level intended to be her comeuppance, which is troubling.
Interesting. Personally, I didn't really interpret it that way. I thought her death was intended to bring full closure to the events of Peace Walker and set up the narrative transition to The Phantom Pain, and most importantly, to underline one of MGS core tropes: That individual soldiers, no matter how despicable their actions, are oftentimes being manipulated and discarded by even more immoral decision-makers behind the scenes. Paz was a villain, yes. But she was also the victim of severe indoctrination at the hands of people significantly worse than her.

But even if we accept that premise: I would argue that there are plenty of examples of villainous characters of various identities meeting a grisly fate as some form of intended "poetic justice" in all sorts of media and that while it can oftentimes be in bad taste, it does not in and of itself constitute bigotry. There is a big difference between a writer killing a character off as a consequence of their past actions and doing so based on their race / gender / sexual orientation.

Much of it is open to interpretation on the side of the audience however, and I can see how it might be difficult to accept for some people. Tricky subject. :|

NiaiMitch wrote: August 11th, 2019, 4:13 am I could have done without the collectable tapes of Paz being raped - the format this was presented in I just felt was pretty crass.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I can see how that might be interpreted as a reward of sorts.

I think KojiPro were just caught between a rock and a hard place here - Showing this as a fixed, fully animated cutscene would have probably be way too graphic for most players, while audio tapes are usually being presented in the "collectible" format in most modern games.

I wonder if a compromise of sorts could have been found. Maybe the tape could have been accessed in some part of the world without being added to the Walkman playlist?
NiaiMitch

Re: Our next-but-one podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by NiaiMitch »

KSubzero1000 wrote: August 11th, 2019, 6:56 am Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I can see how that might be interpreted as a reward of sorts.

I think KojiPro were just caught between a rock and a hard place here - Showing this as a fixed, fully animated cutscene would have probably be way too graphic for most players, while audio tapes are usually being presented in the "collectible" format in most modern games.

I wonder if a compromise of sorts could have been found. Maybe the tape could have been accessed in some part of the world without being added to the Walkman playlist?
Yeah, or we could've just been left to infer her experiences by other means maybe - while still achieving the same effect in the player. I'm not sure what the ideal solution would have been, but you're right, it's definitively a bit of a rock and a hard place situation in terms how to present this type of content via gameplay. Looking forward to what the guys on the podcast make of the whole thing as this has been a really interesting discussion. :)
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Re: Our next podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by aidopotato »

Having played a little of the earlier entries in the series, I'd decided I wasn't buying what the MGS series was selling. The staccato rhythm of play alongside the tedious incomprehensible storytelling just ground me down (come at me).
I got GZ on Games with Gold, however, and decided I'd give it a crack to see how the series had developed in the intervening years.
I found the storytelling as tedious and incomprehensible as ever, possibly moreso, but the gameplay this time around was buttery smooth. Straight away I was taken with the freedom to approach the objectives in any manner I choose. Snake had a nicely designed ability set which was intuitive and fun to use, wed to the wonderfully layered systems of the game. I can see why those who paid full price for this at launch may have felt a pang of regret when the credits rolled after a couple of hours, but I also feel like this short game offers a real masterclass in replayability.
The presentation is also simply jaw-dropping. Everything from the textures, animation and sound design right down to the HUD simply oozes class.
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Re: Our next podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by DeadpoolNegative »

"Here's to you, Nicola and Bart"

That Joan Baez lyric kicks off one of the more controversial entries in the Metal Gear franchise. Ground Zeroes may be very short in length (though cheap in price) but I actually find it in some ways more compelling than the full blown sequel that it helps set up.

This is no mere tanker mission prelude, meant to set up a shocking reveal later- well it IS meant to set up a shocking reveal, but we'll leave that for the Phantom Pain discussion. It's more of a mini-sandbox appetizer meant to show players how the Fox Engine will redefine stealth for the Metal Gear series going forward (or not, as the case may be).

Big Boss finds himself on a rescue mission to recover Paz and Chico from a Cuban Black site named Camp Omega. The game may be set in 1975, but the presence of things like an iDroid and the idea of an American base that has no legal recognition under the United States Constitution- and thus Skullface and his American backers can do whatever they want- makes it very much a game straight out of 2014.

I wonder- how many players decided to rescue the hooded prisoners that surround Chico in the camp? I decided to grab them all, on my first playthrough and have them all extracted. It didn't amount to much, especially given what happens to mother base, but there was something grimly satisfying about rescuing those identity free souls left to rot.

Sure, Ground Zeroes is only over in about 2 hours, maybe less if you know what you're doing, but the sense if immediacy, the feeling that Camp Omega is a very small place where you have plenty of places to hide but nowhere to run, is pervasive. Every time I went back to the camp to replay the main story or do a side op things felt... smaller. It's a marked contrast with the absurd open spaces of Phantom Pain.

Unlike Phantom Pain, however, Ground Zeroes at least knows when to wrap up right. Granted, Kojima's fixation on female trauma and suffering was utterly exhausting by Guns of the Patriots, but he finds a way to top himself here that made me throw up my hands in frustration at this game's conclusion. But if you can excise that from the proceedings- Ground Zeroes is short, sharp, thrilling tale.

--Dan
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Re: Our next podcast recording (17.8.19) - 383: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes

Post by AndrewElmore »

Metal Gear Solid has long been my favorite game franchise, so Ground Zeroes is an odd topic of sorts. MGS V as a whole was a game that I had anticipated more than any other, and I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I found that it had been broken into two parts, a la tanker/plant in MGS 2 (my favorite entry in the series). I knew for sure that I was eager to see what the FOX Engine was capable of, and what to expect from MGS V mechanically, so I picked it up at launch. I ended up hundred percenting it on PS3, then again when I upgraded to the PS4 shortly afterward.

All told, I spent close to 40 hours exploring every inch of that island and becoming intensely familiar with every element of it. I knew precisely what to expect from guard behavior regarding any of my actions, I knew where everyone would be at all times, I had a full mental head count of the base and I knew intimately the rules the game played by, and how to use them. I could routinely get in, rescue every prisoner, and get out unseen. By that point I started creating weird goals for myself, and finding creative ways to remove guards from the situation (all aboard the sleep jeep!), trying to CQC everyone on the base, running all the ridiculous optional side modes, etc.

I was astounded at the level of fine detail control I had over Snake, this felt like an unprecedented leap in control design and even as a veteran of the series I was quite grateful for it. And it was a technical marvel! To this day I'm very impressed with the visual fidelity of both iterations of MGS V. The way it manages to run at a beautifully dependable 60fps, the way light reflects off of surfaces in the rain, the 70's Panavision-style lens flares that look like an old John Carpenter film, the fidelity of facial capture, the dynamic depth of field, I could go on all day.

But the most important thing to me about Ground Zeroes, the reason I kept playing it, was because I had never encountered anything like it. I'm a big fan of games like Far Cry 2, Hitman 2016, Breath of the Wild, etc., because intersecting systems that interact with each other are one of my very favorite qualities in a game. Most of the time that's only really found in explicit 0451-style immersive sims, and those are great! But to see a similar design ethos played out in this small, meticulously crafted "open" world, in what ostensibly amounts to a third person stealth shooter, in a Metal Gear game specifically, seemed like a choice that was laser-focused at my exact interests, and I couldn't have been happier. The Phantom Pain went on to expand this concept and was a bit, in my opinion, inconsistent with its implementation (which makes sense, that game is enormous, I can't fault them for it not always working as well as it does in this tighter space), which meant that the game I come back to most often now, some years later, is the much more digestible Ground Zeroes. All killer, no filler, as the kids say.

The only thing I haven't touched on is the narrative element of Ground Zeroes. I was not much interested in Peace Walker, so that game always felt more like a spinoff, side-story, gaiden-type entry to me. To see it become the core ground work of what would be Metal Gear Solid's final entry was a strange surprise. I've always been a sucker for Metal Gear's narrative, and all the good and bad that entails. I'm perfectly happy to replay MGS 4 any time and set the controller down for 94 minutes while Kojima vomits exposition at me. I love it. It's dumb, inefficient, inelegant, clunky, brilliant, and I love it. But Kojima's games have always had one weight tied to their ankle that I can't forgive or overlook. They always trade in embarrassing misogyny to varying degrees, and Ground Zeroes is no exception. I'm sure you'll cover the scene I'm referring to on the show so I won't retread that territory, but it's tremendously frustrating. Which is a shame, because I adore and cherish everything else about this game, and when I look back on it, that scene is the last thing in my mind. I spent so much time exploring that island and experimenting with its systems, hunting for easter eggs, trying to see if i could put every single NPC on the helicopter (spoiler alert, you absolutely can), and just celebrating the detail and idiosyncrasies of this game that I had expected to be little more than a thirty dollar demo.
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