Shmups

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm

^ Love Progear, it's a belter. Much prefer it to Akai Katana and Deathsmiles, in fact. Simple enough for me to understand, basically!

Also, and I know this sounds like the kind of exaggerated self-deprecating 'woe is me' fiction people post on Twitter, but I've been playing so much DaiOuJou these last few days that when I'm using my phone, I keep scrolling by doing little taps and I have this kind of tap tap tap tap rhythm in my muscle memory. It's not quite enough to drive me insane but it's weird. It reminds me of standing in a river fishing for a few hours and then that night you feel some kind of imaginary water resistance against your legs.

Not really snappy or pithy enough for Twitter, that one, nor amusing in any way. I just thought, you know, if anyone might understand, it's youse guys.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 12th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Stanshall wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
Simple enough for me to understand, basically!
[meme]Not sure if serious[/meme]

Progear is fab if you just hold down shoot and dodge the bullets, which is what I always did. It was one of the games I played in mame that got me into bullet hell.
They had a score competition on reddit though and I looked into the scoring and I was just, "oh, fuck this, I can not be arsed"

I mustn't have been in the mood :lol:

I can't relate to the phone thing, I'm afraid, I hate mobile phones. When they first came out, it was only boorish, rude, affluent people pouring their verbal effluence down them in the street. Look at me!
I know everyone's got them now but they still look rude to me. Fair enough for emergencies, but don't be swiping and nattering on in public, have some fucking manners, enjoy the scenery, live in the pissing moment.

I did have a phone for a little bit, my mammy made me be buy one when I got lost on my bike that time. I've got a really bad sense of direction, I rode round and round in circles, riding down motorways, thinking it'd be easier to find my way back, finally ended up in whitley bay and found a payphone I could reverse the charges on and ask someone to come and pick me up :lol:

That didn't last long, I kept leaving it at home. Here, we're connected and talking all the time, when I go out for a wander, it usually means that I'm getting away from everything and wanting a bit of peace. I don't wanna be on call 24/7 like some fucking doctor.

It's like when people told everyone "Oh, our stevens a whizz on the computer", everyone and their ganny were bringing me fucky laptops to fix "Oh, we'll give you 20 quid"
"No, don't be daft". It was like a fucking unpaid job in the end! I had three of the bastards on the go at one point "Our Christopher's lasses dad has filled his shitty laptop with viruses while downloaded dog porn again, I'll bring it over later"
"No, don't be daft"
"Wha?"
"Oh sorry, I thought you offered me 20 quid. yeah, just throw it on the pile"

I don't mind phones that much really, just I'd have nobody to phone on the damn thing, so I just pretend I don't want one on principle instead :lol:

GSK bringing the hot shmup info - https://twitter.com/gosokkyu/status/1160887186125774850
ESPRaDeΨ Inside Info #3: the Arcade Plus mode will be tweaked to address boss milking; we'll be making adjustments in consultation with high-level players in order to deepen the scoring system & minimise the amount of time spent milking bosses for score
Also, that weird hellsinker looking ∀kashicverse-Malicious Wake- coming to steam - https://twitter.com/gosokkyu/status/1160822241157795841

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 12th, 2019, 9:43 pm

Grand Brix Shooter - August 29th (PC, Switch)
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Hard to call, looks a bit messy, but could be good!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 12th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Excellent phone rant/soapboxing. I can vaguely remember life before them. I used to have an attention span back then. These days, I use mine to watch shmup videos in the bogs at work and to capture my screener replays - to have some tangential link to the thread.

Not picked up any new shmups for a while but I quite like the look of that Grand Brix. Bit Geometry Wars and a bit bullet hell and, what, maybe roguelike elements? Looks like a fun one. Will no doubt be better than Q-Yo Blaster and Alien Cruise, both of which were ill-judged buys. Still, I get a vague sense of 'supporting the scene'...

Also, well excited for ESP.Ra.De! By no means my fave Cave (or top ten) but it'll be brilliant to have any M2 Cave port on the Switch. Please please please let this be a sign that they've cracked that era of hardware. I would so love them to get DOJ on a current gen format. I might have learned stage two by then.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 12th, 2019, 11:14 pm

I'd never heard of that Alien Cruise. Shame it isn't up to much as I'm digging the artstyle.

Yeah, hopefully they're happy enough with the performance they're getting on the switch to put some more games on there. It's where the money's at, currently, that's for sure. I get the sense that they're working their arses off just to keep the lights on and their integrity and passion are worth far more than that.

I don't know if Esp Ra.De is a big enough name to draw in the floating shitmunchers, but hopefully it'll sell really well on there.

Has anyone else been pronouncing it Esp Ra-"day" all their lives until they saw the trailer?
Makes me wonder what else I'm getting wrong. I say goo-wan-jee, but I've heard goo-wang which just sounds horrible.

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 12th, 2019, 11:49 pm

I've always pronounced it 'esp rah deh' in my head so I'm glad it's actually easier than that. Fingers and toes crossed that they can keep the lights on for a while longer. Maybe the MD Mini and PC Engine Mini will bring the company some healthy dosh to keep ShotTriggers going.

'goo-wang' makes me think of this which you've no doubt already seen, and you'll probably already know what it is:

https://youtu.be/rbts2qTrbAg

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 13th, 2019, 12:08 am

Stanshall wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 10:25 pm
Also, well excited for ESP.Ra.De! By no means my fave Cave (or top ten) but it'll be brilliant to have any M2 Cave port on the Switch. Please please please let this be a sign that they've cracked that era of hardware. I would so love them to get DOJ on a current gen format. I might have learned stage two by then.
I'll second that. Pre-ordered the PS4 version for now.

Also, put me on Team 'Esprayde' & 'Gu-Wan-Geh'.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 13th, 2019, 11:54 am

I managed to get consistent with my Dodonpachi DaiOuJou route and pulled off a full chain while in Replay Mode. It doesn't automatically save each run so there's always a bit of extra pressure when trying to record! I nearly drop the chain a dozen times but that's just the way it goes in DOJ, the margins are painfully fine.

I've got to say, this is the toughest thing I've ever done in a game. Ikaruga was big for me because it was the first time I felt that total all-consuming drive to learn a shmup to any degree, and it put me through some real despair, especially with KSub breathing down my neck and I can't describe the relief. Futari BL 1CC was great, even though I probably have got one of the lowest ever 1CC scores, total coward tactics but I don't care, I did it!

This was different, though. I've been playing it on and off since I first tried it at Arcade Club and it blew my mind and immediately got me into shmups, chasing that first DOJ feeling. I've tried to learn it several times and quit because it was just too impenetrable and the chains seemed impossible but this time around, I've ended up being pretty calm about it where Futari and Ikaruga stressed me out enormously. Once I started making some little bits of progress, I realised that even if it takes me six months, I feel like I can do it. Anyway, onto stage two...



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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 13th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Made me real happy to see that pop up in my feed. Looks dope. :P

I obviously can't comment too much about the technicalities of the run, but I know how much time and energy you've been pouring into this. Congratulations my friend!


This is probably one of very few remaining god tier shmups I don't currently have in my library. Looks amazing, and if the rest of the series is any indication, let's hope M2 takes pity on us all sooner rather than later!

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 13th, 2019, 1:01 pm

Well done Stanshall! Brilliant.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 13th, 2019, 1:37 pm

Stanshall wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 11:54 am
It doesn't automatically save each run so there's always a bit of extra pressure when trying to record!
Oh god, tell me about it!
I hate it when a game doesn't have a replay function because you have to record while you're playing and I get stage fright opening the ruddy curtains of a morning.
I've no idea how people can play up on stage with everyone watching like that and not run into the first bullet they see. Nerves of steel!

That's amazing! Haha, you're bloody mental.
I know you're human and need to be loved, but I can't help but feel like you go about things the wrong way. Most people would go for the 1cc and then their chaining abilities would get tighter, it'd be something that came naturally as they learned through play, experimenting as they went.
You seem to bypass that casual part altogether and go straight to the disciplined, training for the big day rocky montage.
It's an unusual approach, it's different, but I liiike it.
I just keep banging my square peg at the round hole until something gives.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't 100% approve of you copying someone else's routes. Yes, it's the sane way of doing things, and you were honest about it, but still, it doesn't sit quite right with me. My runs may be shite, but that runny shite is original, authentic clippa crap that I done all by myself, on the potty, like a big boy.
I thought I'd best get that out there now, because otherwise it'll be festering under the surface and I'll just blurt it out one day during a row "At least I do my own shits!" and it'll be hard to explain in the heat of the moment.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6downb?start=355

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a s**** s******, but you get my point.

Feel a little bit snubbed to be left out of that youtube dedication, if I'm honest.
"... and to clippa for so thoroughly and consistantly undermining my achievements at every possible oppertunity. Why can't you just be happy for me?"

Typical bigshot, you get to the top and forget all the little people who tried to drag you back down along the way.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 13th, 2019, 4:49 pm

Vasara on steam is go! - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1085 ... ollection/

The Switch tax is real!

Image

Aaawww, 2.3gb, that's gonna take an aeon on my crappy internet and my nephews here so I daren't download at more than 100kbps in case he starts taking hostages.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 13th, 2019, 7:44 pm

Ooft, you can't rebind the controls. A bare minimum essential feature.
Just equal mame, that's all I ask. Gonna refund this.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 13th, 2019, 7:46 pm

That sounds like the kind of thing that might get patched in sooner or later.

Anyway, can't you use a third-party program to rebind them manually?

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Thanks, gents. Really buzzing about this one.

(Impossibly navel-gazing post to follow).

And clip, you raise a really interesting point and it's something I've thought about intermittently without the slightest hint of shame or regret. It's a debate I'm well into, though, and genuinely pleased you mentioned it. Honestly, I still see myself as a total upstart/noob with the genre, no real idea of the etiquette or history or protocol or anything. I'm still just playing how I'm motivated to do so and how I enjoy it - but I don't necessarily think that 'as long as I'm havin fun' means I'm getting the most out of it. There are layers it's possible to miss even if you're enjoying the game, and you may well actively restrict your enjoyment and appreciation through pure ignorance. If someone said they just play Dark Souls for the bosses and sprint through the areas and skip NPC quests and lore notes, I totally get that they might enjoy that aspect but they're also undeniably missing a large chunk of what makes the game.

I remember a year or so back, probably longer, you said that credit feeding is not really the way to experience these games and it took me a good while to really understand why from my own experience. I had a great time credit feeding. I loved the spectacle and the music and the overwhelming action but - without question - it's not anywhere near as fun or rewarding as playing on one credit. There's no learning, there's no progress. And that's the stuff I've found I really really buzz off with these games whether or not I can 1CC them (and in almost all cases, I can't.)

Am I therefore missing out by copying (and a little bit of adapting) others' routes? I've got to say, for me, no - at least at this stage. I kind of enjoy working out systems and routes and I quite liked the puzzle of the hyper timings in Rolling Gunner, seeing my scores rocket with the most minute tweaks. I've enjoyed learning where and when to best shred gems in Futari (even though I've put that aside for the moment). Ultimately, though, that's the least interesting and rewarding aspect of these games, to my tastes. It's the very first step, but the learning and the execution, especially, are so much more satisfying for me. In terms of how much I enjoy shmups, it's about 5% working out the route, 25% learning the nuances and 70% execution and optimisation. That's the way it is, for me. I feel like I know something of what it's like to experiment and plot a route but I don't enjoy that as much as I love trying to execute at a high level.

So, fair enough, that's what I enjoy the most - but does copying routes in fact devalue the 'achievement'? That's a harder question for me to answer but I get that it may well do in other people's eyes, and that's totally fair. It's an aspect of STGs that happens to not matter to me but it may well be important in the larger community, or even just to the individual, and I'm glad you said it, honestly. I remember hearing Gus talk about some elite Japanese Futari Ultra player who shared routes with him and then went mental and quit shmups because Gus shared the route with someone else. Now, I totally get the breach of trust aspect there but, actually, I don't really get the secrecy in the first place. Obviously, I place a lot less value on the route discovery than the execution (maybe because the latter is so much more crucial to me, as a new player). There's probably a larger philosophical question here about the nature of creativity and 'standing on the shoulders of giants' and so on, but I've always been one for refining and refining and trying to elevate rather than tearing things up and starting again.

Anyway, I'm gettin' into some high-falutin' bullshit round about now but the question sparked a lot of thoughts I've had about shmups over the last year or so, and it motivated me to put a few feelings into words for the first time. As I said in feedback for the SF4 issue of C&R, I love the practice practice practice and when the time comes to execute, that's what makes it worthwhile for me. I don't really need to work out the combo for myself. It's about the moment of feeling I've finally reached a goal.

Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts and prefs on this one, and cheers if you made it this far!

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 12:07 am

I remember hearing Gus talk about some elite Japanese Futari Ultra player who shared routes with him and then went mental and quit shmups because Gus shared the route with someone else.
Woooow! Bit of an overreaction, but I love that, proper stroppy diva shit. Gus, the white devil! Ruiner of lives :lol:
I wonder what the story is there. Gus just having a different outlook on the whole thing, I'm assuming, wanting to help others up onto the summit to enjoy the view rather than kicking them in the face if they climbed up too high.

I can sooort of see the appeal of hiding your secrets when you're playing at that high level. It's an arms race and you don't want the enemy finding your blueprints.
Some people spend long lonely years working this shit out, if some young whippersnapper with faster reactions and a videographic memory comes along and just lifts all your hard work, I can see that sticking in your craw a bit.

I just can't imagine ever getting a world record and not showing off about it though. I'd have that shit up on youtube before the man from guinness had even found his clipboard.

I suppose for me, it's that figuring stuff out for myself has always been the joy in gaming or computery stuff in general. Loading up some art or music program, throwing the manual in the bin, and it (hopefully) having an interface intuitive enough that you can just mess around and teach yourself through play.
I like to jump into games blind too.
You used the word "creativity" and I think that might be what I feel is missing. It's a sort of "painting by numbers" approach that feels cold and logical to me, when my idea of play is improvisational and using the warm sexy right side of your brain a lot more.

You like those dark souls games, innit? I suppose it'd be like sitting down and watching a youtube video of a boss fight right before you played it and just copying what the guy did so you beat it first time.

I'm terrible at chaining in dfk and it's supposed to be even more strict in the earlier games, so I don't know, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe the chaining is so tight that there's only really one true viable route and everyone's strategy is just a little subtle variation on that.
You seem to like that though, those really strict, prescriptive games where you're expected to join in with the choreography and never miss a step.

I don't think it's a matter of shmup etiquette, I've seen the bigger boys discussing routes on the shmup discord and talking about savestates in mame, just loading up the same part of the game they're stuck on to practise again and again.
I just find your approach interesting because of course you don't profess to be top level, but you seem to take these games on like someone practising for the (stage 1) world record.
I mean, you actually had the world record on stage 1 of rolling gunner for ages, as far as we know.
I find it strange and intriguing, you're an odd duck and that means something coming from me! :lol:
I love it, I'm not happy about the fact that I think slightly less about your achievement because you watched a couple of videos. I just thought I'd best own up to the fact in case I ended up gnawing my lip off and it grew so big that I ended up hating you for the fact.
You chained stage 1 of daioujou, I can't do that, I think we all know what the real issue is here.
I'd try but owly's got a gun to my head making me play blue wish again! :lol:
KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 7:46 pm
That sounds like the kind of thing that might get patched in sooner or later.

Anyway, can't you use a third-party program to rebind them manually?
Yes to both of those, I suppose. There'll be something you can do, use big picture mode or something and reconfigure the buttons in there. I just wasn't in the mood. I mean, they just make it so obvious that it's running in an emulator with less features and options, it takes you longer to get into each game and I'm just "you know what, these run fine in mame". I loaded up the 16:9 version and it utterly stank, really slow and dull.

The controls are a bit awkward on my stick so I go to rebind the controls and it's just a big picture of a 360 pad showing me which buttons do what.
You know what? If that's the fucking effort you're gonna put in, you don't deserve my 4 pounds sterling, thank you very much.
I can press a button and be playing the games in mame instantly with the buttons set up just how I want them, no fucking about, no trawling through menus. They have to match that or at least come close or offer some other features.

I'm happy to pay and play these games legit from whichever band of normarks devs bought the license, but, howay man, meet me halfway.
They got all the way to release and it never occurred to them that someone might want to reconfigure the buttons or play these arcade games on something other than a pad? They don't know what they're doing and that 16:9 mode cemented it.
You caught me in a bad mood. No sale. Get fucked. Goooood day to you, sah!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 12:42 am

Stanshall wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm
[...]
Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts and prefs on this one
Okay, I don't think I'll be able to go into as much detail, but here's my take on it. I think videos and established strategies are definitely playing a very important role - but it should be about learning the underlying principles and mechanics, not blindly copying the exact inputs. Whenever I watch a superplay in preparation for one of my runs, I don't simply memorize what the other player is doing, instead I try to understand why they're doing it. Some elements (like secrets or fixed collectibles) will obviously need to be committed to memory sooner or later, but the actual flow and pathway throughout the stage is something that I really have to carve out for myself.

The reason is pretty simple - no two runs are ever exactly the same, and so mastery goes hand in hand with knowledge and understanding for me, because any type of dry memorization will instantly fall apart as soon as the circumstances end up changing ever so slightly. I need to know what I'm doing so that I can learn from my inevitable mistakes.

I'm also not particularly good at dealing with strict and complex button input (like fixed combo chains) in general, which is why I've never had much success with competitive fighting games, for example. They always feel rather artificial to me and my brain has trouble processing the inherent delayed input buffering and the like. I'm much happier dealing with a layered encounter design centered around a simple and responsive set of core mechanics.

I'm not sure if I should keep bringing this up or not, but really, my current obsession with various shmups comes from a very similar place as my longstanding fascination with Mercs. And the way I use videos is basically the same for both of those. I love to watch world records in order to assess the lay of the land before diving headfirst into it, but any actual achievement is going to be the result of a deeply personal learning process that demands perseverance and the semi-constant refinement of strategies in order to accommodate my own play style / shortcomings.


...It's getting insanely late so I hope this is at least somewhat coherent! :lol:


PS:
Stanshall wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm
In terms of how much I enjoy shmups, it's about 5% working out the route, 25% learning the nuances and 70% execution and optimisation.
Interesting. My execution can be pretty coarse at times, so I would say it would probably look something like "20% route planning, 30% nuances and 50% execution / optimization" for me.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 1:20 am

I don't mean to be facetious, but I think for me it's split equally 50% dodging bullets and 50% shooting aliens. 100% execution and optimisation, I suppose.

Route planning? Do you actually plan a route or is that just a phrase?

I play again and again and my subconscious is like "reet, that worked, let's do that forever now" so I form little habits of how I tackle certain situations and patterns. Is that what you mean?
Stuff like that sticks but it can all go out of the window since my memory is terrible. Stage 3 of futari is a good example, that usually begins well but ends with me screaming and yanking my stick about in panic, or stage 4 of the first game, particularly that dragon bit, I just have to play that by ear every time as my brain just can't make head nor tail of it.
I think I just have a lazy brain, it's always like "fuck it, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" then next time it's like "there's that bridge again, good luck"

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 6:31 am

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 1:20 am
Route planning? Do you actually plan a route or is that just a phrase?
Well... yeah. Of course I plan a route. :)

I have pretty much the entire BWRP enemy and bullet patterns mapped out in my head right now. That's what gets me through it. When I play, I tend to focus equal parts on overcoming the current pattern as well as positioning myself properly in order to deal with the upcoming one as best as possible. Anticipation is what gets me through the really thorny parts.

I reckon I could probably pick up on Ghost Blade, Nex Machina, or Stage 1 of Ikaruga again without investing too much time into it. All that data has been meticulously stored in a folder, and that folder isn't going anywhere, that's for certain.

There are moments when I have to try and squeeze through a tight bullet curtain as the direct consequence of a previous mistake, but I certainly don't go in planning on "yanking my stick about in panic". What the hell? :lol:

I have a pretty good memory overall, so that probably helps.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 6:40 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 6:31 am
Well... yeah. Of course I plan a route. :)
Oh fuck off with your potato headed self, no you do not. It's all subconscious, innit? You and Stanshall don't all sit around with a whiskey in front of a printed out map of each stage and draw a line with pins and strings. I'm not that thick, you can't fool me.

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