Shmups

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist »

Yeah I've still got my PS4, largely for shmups (I have Jamestown, Ghost Blade HD, Fast Striker, Astebreed etc). Is Ketsui available here?

What's the beef with Deathsmiles? Is it just the moe stuff? Mechanically I think it's brilliant, so much fun to play.

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist »

KSubzero1000 wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 10:22 am
Just enough Spelunky to conclude the game is about as frustrating and unwelcoming as I remembered.
There's mileage in winding Clippa up about this. I am in the same boat :D

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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hazeredmist wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 10:28 am
Yeah I've still got my PS4, largely for shmups (I have Jamestown, Ghost Blade HD, Fast Striker, Astebreed etc). Is Ketsui available here?
Yeah, although you'll need either a JPN account or a physical copy to play it. (And Battle Garegga Rev. 2016 is also definitely worth playing, if you're going down that route.) I have them both on disc and I love them, especially Ketsui. I suggest reading this excellent review to know more.

Deathsmiles... Yes, it's mostly the presentation stuff that rubs me the wrong way. But I also didn't find it all that interesting to play. To be perfectly fair, I only played it once, so it's more than likely that I missed out on the one or the other mechanical nuance. Horis aren't really my thing anyway, with a few exceptions.

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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote:
November 17th, 2019, 12:40 pm
... input lag...
The Switch seems to be getting a bit of a free pass, or at least it's not being picked up on my major sites, but that's the third thing I've read about poor input lag on Switch emulated titles in the last 48 hours.

I was checking out whether it was worth buying the Sega Megadrive collection and found loads and loads of people complaining about terrible input lag. I dug a little deeper and Mega Man Collection owners are complaining about the same thing.

This isn't really good enough, is it? In a time where a toaster can emulate Doom, we really shouldn't be having to suffer this kind of stuff on decades old games. I wonder if it's hardware or software related, but it's definitely an issue for a lot of people. I don't think you can say it's hardware, since the wireless PS4 and Xbox pads don't have any noticeable lag, and other games on Switch don't suffer from it, which just leaves poor emulation. Really, anything less than M2 standard shouldn't be allowed to be sold!

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Suits
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Re: Shmups

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Clips - What’s your dogs name ??

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

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Alex79uk wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 2:29 pm
Stanshall wrote:
November 17th, 2019, 12:40 pm
... input lag...
The Switch seems to be getting a bit of a free pass, or at least it's not being picked up on my major sites, but that's the third thing I've read about poor input lag on Switch emulated titles in the last 48 hours.

I was checking out whether it was worth buying the Sega Megadrive collection and found loads and loads of people complaining about terrible input lag. I dug a little deeper and Mega Man Collection owners are complaining about the same thing.

This isn't really good enough, is it? In a time where a toaster can emulate Doom, we really shouldn't be having to suffer this kind of stuff on decades old games. I wonder if it's hardware or software related, but it's definitely an issue for a lot of people. I don't think you can say it's hardware, since the wireless PS4 and Xbox pads don't have any noticeable lag, and other games on Switch don't suffer from it, which just leaves poor emulation. Really, anything less than M2 standard shouldn't be allowed to be sold!
I may be an amateur but I have the Megadrive collection on Switch and I couldn't perceive any input lag, and I think the emulation is excellent. I've played through several games including the entirety of the Streets of rage collection, I recommend picking it up.

I've also not noticed lag on anything else I've played... And I play a lot of "reaction" games. On stick, Pro Controller, or handheld. But again I'm no pro.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion »

The distinct audio lag on the MD collection is pretty apparent, on all versions.

As regards to input lag, well everyone’s mileage is going to vary significantly based on AV setup, and, rather like with frame rates, different people certainly seem to have differing levels of sensitivity about it.

For instance, DomsBeard reported “no lag” on Stadia, which is literally impossible (and proven to not be the case), so what he means is no perceptible lag, to him.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk »

Interesting. Perhaps it's been patched?

(The Sega collection I mean). Audio lag is pretty annoying but I'd take it over input lag I guess. Thing is, there's literally no excuse for it. Not in this day and age from a huge publisher.

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Suits
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Re: Shmups

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Hahah, awesome. Great work on the names.
clippa wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 5:41 pm
Have you got a dog?
Currently, sadly, no. We bought a house, had a baby, both work all day, all that rubbish, which has deemed having a beast secondary. Apparently.

I’m working on it though.

Had plenty in my time growing up. Big dog family we are. Currently on our 6th and 7th Lab’s, Chester and Harvey.

My old man is a retired Royal Protection guard (MET officer) so we have had a lot of failed police dog pups, which are wonderful dogs, sort of domesticated work dogs. Three walks a day, swimming, wax jackets, all that sort of thing.

Had a mutt too, or a Lurcher to be more precise, Chocky, who was cool as fuck and very intelligent.

All pets/creatures I’m a fan of, anything furry really.

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Suits
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Re: Shmups

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Yep, love cats too.

Had a British Blue for sixteen years, Baxter. Named after Stockman from Turtles. As well as few Toms.

Few of the boys have got smaller dogs, Terriers and the such. Great personalities and attitudes. I love having them on my lap telling me about their day and bushes.

Nothing wrong with a pet hotel mate, you’re doing a great service.

My mother does some work for the Dogs Trust too, she fosters old or nervous dogs and prepares them for new homes - she loves it, find it extremely rewarding.

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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 1:52 pm
What are those exceptions, out of interest?
Well, Resogun. If that counts. And I enjoyed what I played of Dariusburst Chronicles.

clippa wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 1:52 pm
I think it says a lot about a persons character if they find spelunky frustrating.
Death is such an utter joy in that game, and a learning experience to boot.
What I find it frustrating is that the algorithm has a tendency of screwing you over whenever it feels like it. Here are a few examples from just half an hour of casual play:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 7044AE95F/
I unknowingly found myself at the bottom of the snake pit without any means of getting out.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 07FB52D38/
Guaranteed death, as far as I can tell. And there was no collectable item in the vicinity that I could have used to trigger the trap manually.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... ED9B165C0/
I actually avoided the arrow when jumping down but ended up falling on some spikes that were not visible when ducking beforehand.

None of those are what I would call "learning experiences". Just a waste of time.

clippa wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 1:52 pm
You haven't played enough.
Pretty sure I have. At least in order to have an informed opinion about what I like and don't like about it. There are lots of individual elements about the game that I like. But I also like having hard data to strategize around in gameplay-centric games, and the constant randomness in Spelunky rubs me the wrong way. It makes defeat feel cheap and victory feel unearned.

But if it makes you feel any better, I reckon you would have very few nice things to say about my favorite games, too! :P

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Re: Shmups

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You know what? I'll take your word for it. It's good to know there is more method to the madness than I assumed. But I find it really difficult to get into the game's rhythm and recognize all those tells by myself.

Although I will say that it isn't always possible to completely avoid running out of items and that one doesn't always have the opportunity to pick anything up before exiting the stage. I once spawned on top of two back-to-back trap statues with only one heart and zero items, and as far as I could tell, there was no way of surviving that. Too bad I didn't take a screenshot, but you know what I mean.

I just have a lot of trouble reconciling procedural generation with my natural way of playing and enjoying gameplay content, I'm afraid. :(

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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Ketsui runs perfectly in shmupmame, haze, if you want to give it a try. It's very good but it's very hard and intense. I still don't think I'm ready for it! :o
When you're in the zone and everything is clicking and you're all up in their grill and pushing and pushing, it's euphoric, but it's punishing, and I don't find much drawing me back to try it again. One day I'll properly dive in and give it the attention it deserves, but there are other games with similar scoring mechanics that I much prefer.

Deathsmiles is excellent. I'm not for one second going to defend the paedo baiting character design, but the game itself is fantastic. Once you're in the game itself, it's never an issue, and it's easily caves best looking game for my money. It's utterly gorgeous.

Yes, the 1.5 mushi dlc is definitely worth it, the game now has rank and proximity scoring, you can hang back and go for an easy 1cc (I know this is relative, but it's much easier than the base game on normal), or you can get aggressive and point blank the baddies and go for sooperdooper score and squeak with delight and fear as you watch the bullets get faster and faster.
I pretty much always end up playing this mode when I turn it on nowadays. It's great fun.

Nice to see you again, owly!
What are the rules with "paedo baiting character design" and where the line is with people? I don't even see how Deathsmiles is any worse than Mushihimesama or even DonDonpachi Resurrection. Or Ghost Blade. They all have young looking anime girl art in them, in fact many shmups I see people being cool with do, I'm not sure I really get it. Nothing in any of these games has screamed out "THIS IS A HORROR SHOW, TURN IT OFF BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVE!"

I do obviously understand we all have different lines so I guess I'm just curious why something like Deathsmiles really puts people off, which I see as a shame given the game is so much fun. I've played it all the way through a couple of times and I honestly can't remember the story or any of the art let alone could I tell you it was any more dodgy than say Ghost Blade or not. I think I've always just written that stuff off as tropes from another culture, and something you kind of have to accept with shmups given the origins of most of them? Is that wrong?

Regarding Mushihimesama, I played through Normal last night (it seems far from innocent if we are judging games by these moe standards by the way) and found it colourful and fun. I'm excited to try this easier 1.5 mode too. I got to Stage 3 before needing a credit. Don't really understand the mechanics yet but repetition will get me there.

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Re: Shmups

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hazeredmist wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 10:22 am

What are the rules with "paedo baiting character design" and where the line is with people? I don't even see how Deathsmiles is any worse than Mushihimesama or even DonDonpachi Resurrection. Or Ghost Blade. They all have young looking anime girl art in them, in fact many shmups I see people being cool with do, I'm not sure I really get it. Nothing in any of these games has screamed out "THIS IS A HORROR SHOW, TURN IT OFF BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVE!”
I’m kind of with you there, as I’ve been playing games with cutesy anime girls in ‘em since the late 80s. Is Maerchen Maze paedo bait? Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams? Kiki Kaikai/Pocky & Rocky? Twinkle Star Sprites? I do think some of the end of level screen art in Deathsmiles is a bit questionable, though, so I could imagine that’s where some of the discomfort comes from (also, the marketing and the use of words like ‘loli’ and ‘lolita’), but when you’re playing, you’re just looking at diminutive sprites zipping across the screen and I dig the GnG / Castlevania type enemy and environment design.

Interesting to read about the minutiae of Spelunky. I never touched that game as the mere idea of a platformer without handcrafted levels (the genre often stands or falls with its level design) sounds absurd to me (ABSURD, YOU HEAR?!!), but it seems like there is a little bit more there.

Re: input lag on Switch and in the Mega Man Legacy Collection specifically... Input lag on modern screens come with the territory and I was at least expecting a little bit going in, but I couldn’t do the MM2 Mecha Dragon challenge for the life of me, with the Plasma TV in game mode, falling off the tiny platforms constantly, when I swore I pressed jump well within time. Yesterday, I tried it in handheld mode and did it on my first try, 24 secs, gold medal.

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Re: Shmups

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hazeredmist wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 10:22 am
I'm just curious why something like Deathsmiles really puts people off
I swear we have the exact same conversation every six weeks or so. :lol:

To me the issue is less with the "What?" and more with the "How?". I don't see anything inherently wrong with either anime art style or young characters in and of themselves, but I think it very much depends on how this sort of thing is being handled.

(Classic!) Fire Emblem is always my gold standard on how to handle this sort of thing properly with anime aesthetics. There are plenty of characters of all ages, but the younger ones aren't being portrayed in a sleazy or exploitative fashion. They just blend in with the others and everything always remains above board. Proportions and attire play a big role here. Even writing, to a certain extent. No different than a normal movie or comic book in that regard.
Spoiler: show
Image

Image
My problem with Deathsmiles (and certain other shmups / visual novels, etc...) is when the characters become quasi-sexualized to a point that makes me question the designers' intentions and the kind of target audience they might be trying to pander to.

For the record, I have zero issues with Mushihimesama in comparison, so that line is definitely subjective.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Flabyo »

I’m glad you qualified the Fire Emblem there with ‘classic’, cause they’re definitely not immune to it in the more recent ones :)
Spoiler: show
Image

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist »

Really? On my play-through last night, this was the default wallpaper:

https://www.gamersdecide.com/sites/defa ... 823/46.png

Are those proportions fine? Is she not being sexualised? I honestly don't see why this is fine but art in Deathsmiles isn't.

Not looking to argue btw, just genuinely curious why some stuff hits a nerve and other stuff doesn't.

Image

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Flabyo wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 2:29 pm
I’m glad you qualified the Fire Emblem there with ‘classic’, cause they’re definitely not immune to it in the more recent ones :)
Yep, one of my many issues with the Awakening-era titles. Nowi and Tharja for example are completely embarrassing and what's even worse, for a lot of uninformed players they have come to represent the entire franchise. Which is unfortunate.

hazeredmist wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 2:42 pm
Not looking to argue btw, just genuinely curious why some stuff hits a nerve and other stuff doesn't.
No problem mate, I don't mind elaborating. I guess for me the difference is that the character in Mushihimesama can still pass for a young adult, albeit a heavily stylised one. And the game doesn't really draw any attention to her appearance. It's not the way I would have designed her, but it's easy enough to ignore and to somehow remain within the standard Disney Princess or Princess Mononoke territory. Without going into too much detail, it's more difficult to give Deathsmiles the benefit of the doubt in that regard, especially with some of the cutscene stills.

PS: I had forgotten about that wallpaper because the first thing I did was obviously to change all the default ones! :P

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Re: Shmups

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So I loaded up Deathsmiles and I hadn't even noticed they literally put the ages of the girls there when selecting them. To be fair the only one I saw as overly sexualised was the 17-year old (Rosa?) and even that didn't bother me. I tend to just flick past those screens and play.

I then fired up DFK, and was reminded how good that is. This seems to be a thing with Cave games - they get better every time I play them. Even though there is a picture of a lass at the side with her arse bursting out of a skirt and looking behind at the viewer. If not for this focus I barely notice this stuff.

Some interesting discussion here. Let's have it again in another six weeks :)

I fired up Danmaku Unlimited 2 finally, man I think this is a lot more palatable than 3. It feels great. Only played a level though.

A few too many short delves into shmups, I need some focus again to learn a game properly. There are too many, and they are all so good!

tl;dr I'm in love again. These are nice problems to have.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion »

I believe they upped the ages of the Deathsmiles characters for the international releases, if I recall correctly.

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