Shmups

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Michiel K wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:18 pm
Any of yallz played Iuchi’s Kokuga on 3DS? Whaddyamean, no?
I never even knew this was a thing! Clearly, I'm way behind on my Treasure news... :oops:

I'm kinda curious to try it out for myself now, despite the mixed response it has apparently received. eShop price is €15, I think I could just roll the dice on that one at some point...

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Michiel K
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Re: Shmups

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KSubzero1000 wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 7:25 am
Michiel K wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:18 pm
Any of yallz played Iuchi’s Kokuga on 3DS? Whaddyamean, no?
I never even knew this was a thing! Clearly, I'm way behind on my Treasure news... :oops:

I'm kinda curious to try it out for myself now, despite the mixed response it has apparently received. eShop price is €15, I think I could just roll the dice on that one at some point...
The game is from G.rev, but with Iuchi at the helm. Don't go in expecting any sort of continuation from Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, though!
Ray wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 7:01 am
Michiel K wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:18 pm
Any of yallz played Iuchi’s Kokuga on 3DS? Whaddyamean, no?
Maybe I'm just angry because I paid some 60 Euros for the game (big chunk of it was shipping but still) :D I guess I'd be fine with it if I paid it 2 Euros or so.
LOL, I paid 15 for the eShop version and quite like it. It's very much a slow paced, strategic, player controlled scrolling affair and while I'm not necessarily the greatest fan of the card deck power-up system, it is kind of interesting. You get these funny moments where you burn through a few cards to get the power-up you actually need. The difficulty ramping can be controlled by choosing your route Darius style and I like that you also have control over how many stages you play before the final one.

HOWEVER

Kokuga really comes into its own as a wireless multiplayer game in which 4 players spread out and cover the maps and I think that's really how it was intended to be played. The full game is download play enabled as well, so for a 4 player game, only one player needs to own a copy.

I get what you say about the basic look and the unfinished feel. Then again, it contains some wonderful Namiki tracks, too.

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Ray
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Re: Shmups

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Michiel K wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:01 am
LOL, I paid 15 for the eShop version and quite like it. It's very much a slow paced, strategic, player controlled scrolling affair and while I'm not necessarily the greatest fan of the card deck power-up system, it is kind of interesting. You get these funny moments where you burn through a few cards to get the power-up you actually need. The difficulty ramping can be controlled by choosing your route Darius style and I like that you also have control over how many stages you play before the final one.

HOWEVER

Kokuga really comes into its own as a wireless multiplayer game in which 4 players spread out and cover the maps and I think that's really how it was intended to be played. The full game is download play enabled as well, so for a 4 player game, only one player needs to own a copy.

I get what you say about the basic look and the unfinished feel. Then again, it contains some wonderful Namiki tracks, too.
The reason I paid that much is because I wanted to have a physical version and they pulled it from eShop anyway (at least from Jp eShop, I think I can guess why) so… heh, goodbye money. I was actually expecting this is a very low risk purchase (based on the reputation of the author and the videos I watched before ordering: the game looks like something I'd like) but I was wrong.

Well in MMBN you also sometimes / very often have to discard certain cards to get to the ones you need, but it never feels stupid somehow. I think the main problem is that weapons, level design, the main "character" characteristics and enemies simply do not match in this game. The route choosing doesn't really work – I should probably elaborate but don't want to talk about this bad and unfinished game anymore.

I actually suspected multiplayer is how the game is meant to be played. Sadly, with no one to play it with I never got to confirm it personally! I'll just take your word for it… But even if the multiplayer is solid I suspect 15 is still at least three times too much.

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Michiel K
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Re: Shmups

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I did manage to talk a few 3DS owning people into some Kokuga multiplayer sessions and it was good times indeed! :P

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Re: Shmups

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James wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 10:34 pm
When I hear 'shmup' I instantly think of Cave and Treasure games, or those aping them directly. A game like Cuphead, one of the most-discussed, and most-lauded games of recent years, I almost never hear being discussed as a 2D shooter or shmup. Similar thing for twin-stick shooters; maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but I don't often see Geometry Wars, Assault Android Cactus or Nex Machina mentioned either.
I would certainly call those last 3 shoot 'em ups. They're not from the Xevious or Gradius lineage, but they still fall within their own place in the genre.

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

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As an aside, I think I'd really enjoy a scrolling twin stick shooter. Does such a thing exist?

It also makes me wonder why twin-stick shooters have more casual/mainstream appeal than trad vert/hori scrollers. Many of the issues are identical but they do seem to extend a lot further. It doesn't feel right describing them as shmups, though. They're something very different to me, but I might be splitting hairs.

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Re: Shmups

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Some great debate / thoughts here so far on this.

I'm a newcomer but with a somewhat accelerated experience in a short time I guess, which is how it tends to go with things I get into. MMA was the same - I think that kicked into life for me when watching the card where Anderson Silva fought Demian Maia. Within a year I had binged so much content that I could reel off info from old Pride or Affliction events as if I'd attended them. So I'm perhaps in the minority with how I consume things I get *really* into. But I digress.

With shmups I don't have the skills or the time to become amazing at them but there is just something about it as a genre that pulled me in. Before it just wasn't a thing for me, I was into games on my Vita such as TxK, Resogun, Super Stardust Delta etc but And what I consider in my own head to be shmups has fragmented somewhat too, I've basically settled with the sub-genre of "Cave-style" I guess? Certainly bullet hell. I find it oddly relaxing to lose everything else and play this sort of game.

However I will say I've showed the games I'm playing to people, and shared gameplay videos etc, and in most cases they do not appeal. At all. They look stressful, primitive. Bullets all over the place and constantly avoiding death with extreme difficulty? Usually it's met with "not for me". A bit like MMA, whereby in lots of cases, you will never get past the fact many won't ever want to watch people kick fuck out of each other, however you dress it up. So it's literally impossible to "hit mainstream" perhaps... But it's kinda nice being the outcasts at the back of the room playing our weird shmups in a way too?

Community is everything with this I think. Without you guys it may not have happened for me. I connect with games you wax lyrical about more than games I discover myself.

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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 9:02 am
As an aside, I think I'd really enjoy a scrolling twin stick shooter. Does such a thing exist?

It also makes me wonder why twin-stick shooters have more casual/mainstream appeal than trad vert/hori scrollers. Many of the issues are identical but they do seem to extend a lot further. It doesn't feel right describing them as shmups, though. They're something very different to me, but I might be splitting hairs.
You can't play them with an arcade stick :roll: This has definitely lead to me disregarding a lot of stuff as 'not shmups' in my head. I've said before but the arcade stick now is kinda the platform for me, if I can't play a shmup on it due to needing controls it doesn't have, it's fucked.

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Ray
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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 9:02 am
As an aside, I think I'd really enjoy a scrolling twin stick shooter. Does such a thing exist?
Did Guardian Force (Arcade / Saturn) use a separate controller for shooting? If so then I guess it'd qualify. Maybe Cannon Spike? (Can't remember which control scheme that one used.) There are quite a few arcade games where you can move /scroll and shoot in different directions (Gundhara etc), mostly evolutions of Commando but I think those used knobs to set the direction of fire (Guerilla War I think was like that, can't remember) so probably don't fit the bill perfectly. Well that's all I can think of!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 9:02 am
As an aside, I think I'd really enjoy a scrolling twin stick shooter. Does such a thing exist?
clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:34 am
It is a really good idea and I wonder why it hasn't been done to death already
Well, since twin-stick shooters are all about the constant re-orientation of your ship / character instead of simply positioning, I could see it mesh rather poorly with an auto-scrolling play area. I would imagine that trying to fly towards an enemy located on the left side of the screen only to be interrupted by said screen might cause a lot of potential frustration. That's not really an issue with conventional shmups with fixed aiming, though. Nobody gets frustrated at not being able to fly below the screen in DDP because there's nothing down there to fly towards or aim at.

Perhaps my imagination is failing me, but I think these specific sub-genres are designed the way they are for a reason.

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Ray
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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 11:34 am
Ray, your avatar looks like a little cock and balls all dressed up. What the hell is it?
Ha ha not really. I was copying somebody's (can't remember who was it) drawing (who was in turn I think copying Moebius), maybe if you see it bigger it won't trigger such associations: https://imgur.com/f46r7Ae I think it's meant to be a hooded person in a weird costume sitting (shown from behind).

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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 1:01 pm
Gonna use this as my new wallpaper, haze. It's the fish at the back that makes it.
Woo! Nice. I like it. I've got a Rolling Gunner wallpaper on my watch, need something for my PC's - I'm still rocking Splatoon 2 wallpaper.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist »

There are loads of Touhou games on sale on the latest PSN sale - any good? I never hear anyone mention them here.

Touhou Double Focus - £3.99 (75% off)
Touhou Genso Rondo: Bullet Ballet - £5.79 (77% off)
Touhou Kobuto V: Burst Battle - £6.49 (74% off)
Touhou Genso Wanderer - £9.99 (78% off)
Touhou Genso Wanderer Reloaded - £15.99 (60% off)

Are they even shmups? There was a guy on Mark's podcast who seemed to specialise in them so I assumed they were...

*edit* none of them look like shmups from a quick search. Yet they're discussed in various shmup places online. And the aforementioned podcast. Huh.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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hazeredmist wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 1:12 pm
Are they even shmups? There was a guy on Big Shot Mark's podcast who seemed to specialise in them so I assumed they were...
Not a single one of those you've listed is a shmup, I'm afraid.

Touhou is primarily a long-standing shmup series, but it also has loads of spin-offs covering a wide variety of different genres. And it even has an even bigger amount of semi-official fangames that are being made with the original developer's blessing, which complicates the matter even further.

It's a real rabbit hole to start differentiating between all the Touhou games and then knowing which ones are even worth playing... Personally, I almost completely ignore the series for the time being.

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Re: Shmups

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KSubzero1000 wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 1:20 pm
Personally, I almost completely ignore the series for the time being.
Yeah, sounds like the way to go. Off the radar. As you were...

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Re: Shmups

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BWR+ Original 1CC, finally!

4 misses though, so I'm not uploading this one either. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing properly. There is still sooo much room for improvement!

This game is absolutely amazing. Back at it!

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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:01 pm
Yes mate! Nicely done :D
That final pattern, I know it's slow, but christ, your hearts in your mouth! Those bullet shaped bullets are a nice touch!
That final pattern is the stuff of legend! It's not as hard as it may look at first glance given how incredibly slow those bullets are (when playing with WAIT ON, of course), but it is magnificent. Love it, love it, love it. What an exhilarating way to finish the game! :o

clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:01 pm
You're waiting until you piss on my score before uploading a replay, aren't you?
To be perfectly honest with you, I don't really know that much about the scoring system apart from the importance of having as many remaining lives / bombs as possible at the end. I just wanna have a result I can be proud of with as few misses as possible, ideally none at all. I know you're itching for a competition right now but I'm just not there yet. It'll still be a while until I can nail the 1CC confidently enough to start playing for score.

If you wanna have a go so badly, I'm still waiting on your Ghost Blade progress update, you know? :P


PS: Good to hear about these positive steps you're taking. Take care of your body and your body will take care of you.

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Re: Shmups

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Most of those I was doing already, including grabbing the secret extra life. I should probably have said this sooner to save you from doing all the research! But thanks anyway, much appreciated. :)
clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm
Try to kill the bosses as quick as possible.
This on the other hand I didn't know about. I don't think there is even a (visible) timer during the boss fights, so that's a bit of an obscure requirement. But I'll keep it in mind.

BWR is such a fantastically designed game in so many respects, I can't wait to hear what Haze and Michiel make of it!


And yeah, don't worry about GB, I was just teasing. It's a flawed game, I don't see myself going back to it either to be honest. Not when I have all these superior games to choose from now. Let's just both forget about it, then. :)

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall »

Bravo, KSub. I'm now very much the outsider since I've rejected the seedy underbelly of PC gaming, but it's funny how I still really enjoy reading the chat. Glad you've found another avenue!

And clippa, good stuff with the clean living, man. I binned the ciggies again myself not too long ago, so far so good. I won't even talk about it, easy to romanticise and bullshit, I'm just leaving them behind. All the best!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:58 pm
Bravo, KSub. I'm now very much the outsider since I've rejected the seedy underbelly of PC gaming, but it's funny how I still really enjoy reading the chat. Glad you've found another avenue!
Mate, BWR (and Crimzon Clover, and DDPR Steam version with all the DLC) are totally worth booting up your old laptop again or whatever PC you have at your disposal. It's really really good, just trust me on this.

clippa wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:59 pm
Yeah, look at the top right, all the blue things you collected, you can see them slowly ticking away during the boss fights.
...Aaaaaah, gotcha. :)

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