Shmups

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 12:24 pm

Yes, the game was built and balanced around the analogue controls, but because the game gets increasingly harder the more you loop it, eventually analogue control isn't precise enough and just won't cut it.

As danbo, one of the blue revolver devs says in this thread
yes, the game does not support full 360-degree analog movement, only 8-way movement. this is a intentional design decision. for the level of precision required at times, we found wholly analog movement to feel rather inconsistent whenever we tried it. hopefully this is something you can get used to, if not i apologise.
There is a reason why modern shmups don't use analogue controls despite all modern consoles having analogue sticks, it isn't out of some daft, misguided sense of tradition.

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ratsoalbion
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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » July 12th, 2019, 12:24 pm

It’s why many fighters have a specific stick/controller toggle option, yeah. Shame not so many shmups don’t do the same, when relevant.

I think some do though, so worth checking the controller options.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 12:37 pm

clippa wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:24 pm
Yes, the game was built and balanced around the analogue controls, but because the game gets increasingly harder the more you loop it, eventually analogue control isn't precise enough and just won't cut it.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.

clippa wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:24 pm
There is a reason why modern shmups don't use analogue controls despite all modern consoles having analogue sticks, it isn't out of some daft, misguided sense of tradition.
I could be wrong of course, but I was under the impression that most twin-stick shooters like Resogun, Nex Machina and AAC used full analogue movement controls. Even after hundreds of hours playing these games, I never got the sense that they were based on an 8-way digital control setup. And they function perfectly well, even against the dense bullet curtains of higher difficulties. Am I mistaken on this?

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » July 12th, 2019, 12:43 pm

I'm sure that console first, PS4 twin stick games like Resogun and Nex Machina - as well as Assault Android Cactus et al - were absolutely designed with the Dual Shock analogues in mind, and optimised as such. Certainly feels that way to me.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » July 12th, 2019, 12:47 pm

I was looking in to whether I could get my Madcatz fight stick for PS3 working on either PS4 or Switch, but neither seem viable which is a shame. Would love to be able to play some of the shmups in my collection with that thing.

EDIT: Seems there's a £40 adapter for Switch actually, but I was hoping for a cheaper fix!

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 12:57 pm

ratsoalbion wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:43 pm
I'm sure that console first, PS4 twin stick games like Resogun and Nex Machina - as well as Assault Android Cactus et al - were absolutely designed with the Dual Shock analogues in mind, and optimised as such. Certainly feels that way to me.
Yeah.

I actually started doubting myself so I just looked up some footage on YouTube - you can sometimes clearly see the ship moving steadily in a direction other than the usual 8-way, which would be impossible using digital input.

But clippa is right in the sense that virtually every PC shmup I've played is based on digital controls, and for good reason. It definitely makes a difference in terms of responsiveness.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm

I'm afraid adapters are your cheapest option, Alex. If you're willing to take a risk with the input lag numbers, you could go for some cheapo random brand.

Yeah, some games are balanced around analogue movement and are all the better for it but those games tend to have a dash/dodgeroll/getoutofjailfree button which is telling.
"Twin stick shooters" and "top down shooters" are in separate boxes in my mind depending on whether they play best with a pad or mouse and keyboard.

Games like leap of fate, and nuclear throne are in the top down box for me whereas Enter the gungeon is a good example of a twin stick shooter.
Regardless of your preference, that game was built around the analogue movement and the slight aim assist, during the boss fights in particular, like a shmup, you're supposed to be firing in the general direction of the enemy and concentrating more on avoiding the bullets.
If you're proficient with both input methods, you're doing yourself a mischief not going with the pad.

When it comes to shmups where you have lots of bullets and sometimes very fast bullets, you need the controls to be very precise, instant and consistent, on/off, you can't have any room for error. No matter how skilled you are with an analogue stick, there are always going to be "what the f-" moments.

Just to be clear, we're not talking about folk who play with digital controls using an analogue stick. Stanshall's boyfriend, Buck or Chuck, or whatever his name is, is a good example of someone who plays with an analogue stick and most people in the world could never even dream of being that good!

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Alex79uk wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:47 pm
I was looking in to whether I could get my Madcatz fight stick for PS3 working on either PS4 or Switch, but neither seem viable which is a shame. Would love to be able to play some of the shmups in my collection with that thing.

EDIT: Seems there's a £40 adapter for Switch actually, but I was hoping for a cheaper fix!
I've got this, it's brilliant IMO and should work with a PS3 / PS4 stick on your Switch https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DCh ... CDo&adurl=

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 1:56 pm

Oh yeah if Steredenn is analogue control, I'm totally put off... Difficulty, roguelite elements, none of that puts me off. If a shmup doesn't work well with my stick, I'm not interested in it to be honest. It's why I've got no interest in Ikaruga, as I read it's got analogue control, for example.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » July 12th, 2019, 2:00 pm

A new Aleste game is in development at M2:
https://wireframe.raspberrypi.org/featu ... ment-at-m2

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » July 12th, 2019, 2:26 pm

hazeredmist wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm
Alex79uk wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:47 pm
I was looking in to whether I could get my Madcatz fight stick for PS3 working on either PS4 or Switch, but neither seem viable which is a shame. Would love to be able to play some of the shmups in my collection with that thing.

EDIT: Seems there's a £40 adapter for Switch actually, but I was hoping for a cheaper fix!
I've got this, it's brilliant IMO and should work with a PS3 / PS4 stick on your Switch https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DCh ... CDo&adurl=
Looks cool for pads, but my stick is wired :(

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 2:28 pm

Alex79uk wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 2:26 pm
hazeredmist wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm
Alex79uk wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 12:47 pm
I was looking in to whether I could get my Madcatz fight stick for PS3 working on either PS4 or Switch, but neither seem viable which is a shame. Would love to be able to play some of the shmups in my collection with that thing.

EDIT: Seems there's a £40 adapter for Switch actually, but I was hoping for a cheaper fix!
I've got this, it's brilliant IMO and should work with a PS3 / PS4 stick on your Switch https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DCh ... CDo&adurl=
Looks cool for pads, but my stick is wired :(
So is mine! :D it works with wired, mate

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » July 12th, 2019, 2:36 pm

Oh sorry I thought it was just a Bluetooth dongle! Ah OK cool - thanks!

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 2:44 pm

Yeah mins is a PS4/PS3 USB arcade stick, works a treat. The fact it can do wireless is a bonus - you can use wireless Playstation / Xbox / Wii U pads with it but I've only used it with the arcade stick so far. I've not noticed any lag at all, it seems perfect to me but then I'd wager you need to either be an e-sports pro or have your Switch hooked up to NASA technology and work for Digital Foundry to notice even if there is any.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 2:51 pm

hazeredmist wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 1:56 pm
It's why I've got no interest in Ikaruga, as I read it's got analogue control, for example.
Okay, so I just booted up my PS4 to verify myself instead of blindly trusting whatever is written on GameFAQs.

Steredenn has full analogue controls with 360 degrees angle movement and adjustable speed depending on how far the analogue stick is being pushed. Basically the exact same thing as Resogun, which I also verified.

Ikaruga on the other hand has textbook digital controls and the ship only ever moves in the conventional 8-way fashion at a constant speed level, just like Ghost Blade or BWR which I immediately compared it to. It should be perfectly compatible with your arcade stick just like the rest of your games.

Additionally, I could find several pictures of dedicated Ikaruga arcade cabinets, such as:

Image

&

Image

So I'm afraid whoever told you this has been feeding you fake info. :(

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 3:00 pm

KSubzero1000 wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 2:51 pm
So I'm afraid whoever told you this has been feeding you fake info. :(
Well...
clippa wrote:
May 31st, 2019, 6:54 pm
The 360 and steam ports of ikaruga added analogue control. I think the switch version is based on the pc port so aye, you might want to stick with a pad on that, especially if that's how you've learned the game.
Stanshall wrote:
May 31st, 2019, 7:01 pm
And yeah, definitely analogue controls on the Switch version of Ikaruga which now makes me feel a bit like I've not played it as was intended. Too late though, I can never go back!

BREAKING: OWLY LAUNCHES SCATHING ATTACK ON CLIPPA & STANSHALL'S INTEGRITY


:o :o :o

:D

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 3:01 pm

That might have been me - viewtopic.php?p=71703#p71703
The 360 and steam ports of ikaruga added analogue control. I think the switch version is based on the pc port so aye, you might want to stick with a pad on that, especially if that's how you've learned the game.
My info is legit. The digital controls are still there, they just added analogue controls for the folk who wanted them. I don't think there is an option to choose between digital or analogue if you're playing with an analogue stick though.

edit: Hehe, good searching skills, my man!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Well, I could not find any analogue / digital control switch in the settings or anything. It's all digital on my end. So I'd be curious to see everybody's receipts on this one.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 3:04 pm

clippa wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 3:01 pm
My info is legit. The digital controls are still there, they just added analogue controls for the folk who wanted them. I don't think there is an option to choose between digital or analogue if you're playing with an analogue stick though.
Okay, so how come I only have digital input even when using the analogue stick, then??

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 3:04 pm

Don't think it's in the ps4 version, that'll explain why you can't feel it.

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