The Last of Us Part II

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DomsBeard
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

ratsoalbion wrote: July 10th, 2020, 10:22 am
Spoiler: show
Joel murdered Abby’s dad in cold blood for entirely self-serving reasons and in doing so prevented him from potentially saving humanity. Joel is the villain. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an interesting or relatable character, but as long as there was a sequel he was always going to get his comeuppance.
Yeah I totally understand that and agree but it is the manner and point in the game that happens I don't think it earned it for me. But by looking around the Internet now looks like I'm in minority with that
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Jon Cheetham
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

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yeah I am totally down with Abby at this point.10/10 would play a Lost Legacy type expandalone about Abby and Lev in Catalina.
Angry_Kurt wrote: July 10th, 2020, 10:01 am
DomsBeard wrote: July 10th, 2020, 9:39 am I'd also like Naughty Dog even the Dead Space IP after
Spoiler: show
The section in the hospital
That's a great shout from what I've played so far. It won't happen but it would be great if they did a new sci fi IP.
Hear hear. As someone who has played a lot of Resi Evil games,
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TLOU2 actually has a couple of my favourite Resi Evil levels in it.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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DomsBeard wrote: July 10th, 2020, 9:18 am
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I think it would have been better if Abby was already dead on the beach for me which would have better said that revenge is futile.
Spoiler: show
The point of the story is not that "revenge is futile", the point is that perspective is everything, that one person's heroic act is another person's nightmare and that blind loyalty / mindless tribalism is capable of turning people into monsters.

Abby was just as justified in her quest for vengeance as Ellie was, arguably even more so, and killing her off-screen would have been horrible writing. Because this isn't just a clichéd revenge story about Ellie. It's a character drama about both of them.

If after walking a mile in Abby's shoes, understanding her reasons for killing Joel, watching her lose almost all of her friends, seeing her spare Ellie's life twice and getting turned into a literal slave enduring God knows what for months, your reaction is one of *annoyance* because she isn't getting murdered in cold blood on top of it since you were on 'Team Joel & Ellie' and nothing was gonna change that, then you might have missed out on what the game was trying to tell you. I'm not trying to be mean Beardo, but it seems like a lot of folks are just failing the empathy test with this game.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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KSubzero1000 wrote: July 10th, 2020, 12:57 pm
DomsBeard wrote: July 10th, 2020, 9:18 am
Spoiler: show
I think it would have been better if Abby was already dead on the beach for me which would have better said that revenge is futile.
Spoiler: show
The point of the story is not that "revenge is futile", the point is that perspective is everything, that one person's heroic act is another person's nightmare and that blind loyalty / mindless tribalism is capable of turning people into monsters.

Abby was just as justified in her quest for vengeance as Ellie was, arguably even more so, and killing her off-screen would have been horrible writing. Because this isn't just a clichéd revenge story about Ellie. It's a character drama about both of them.

If after walking a mile in Abby's shoes, understanding her reasons for killing Joel, watching her lose almost all of her friends, seeing her spare Ellie's life twice and getting turned into a literal slave enduring God knows what for months, your reaction is one of *annoyance* because she isn't getting murdered in cold blood on top of it since you were on 'Team Joel & Ellie' and nothing was gonna change that, then you might have missed out on what the game was trying to tell you. I'm not trying to be mean Beardo, but it seems like a lot of folks are just failing the empathy test with this game.
Spoiler: show
''you were on 'Team Joel & Ellie' and nothing was gonna change that''

Was I invested in two of my favourite characters of all time for 7 years in a sequel? Surprisingly yes.

In my opinion it played its hand too early in saying ''look what we did to Joel you WILL love Abby by the end''

Look Abby loved dogs, Ellie KILLS DOGS
Abby created a family with Lev, ELLIE ABANDONED HERS AGAIN FOR REVENGE

Had we played as Abby first which would've been brave building up to Joels death it may have worked better who knows.

I do take offence to the accusation of having no empathy, the game showing its hand too early (see my early posts) broke the immersion for me on that regard.

Enjoyed the game didn't enjoy the overall story and that's ok and doesn't make a bad person.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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DomsBeard wrote: July 10th, 2020, 1:23 pm
Spoiler: show
''you were on 'Team Joel & Ellie' and nothing was gonna change that''

Was I invested in two of my favourite characters of all time for 7 years in a sequel? Surprisingly yes.
Spoiler: show
Well of course, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But my point is that you can be invested in characters without refusing to look at the narrative events through any other characters' points of view. If you can't, that would be very much a case of the toxic tribalism the game is commenting on.

I wasn't responding to your criticism of the some of the structure or heavy-handedness (which I think is perfectly fair and I partially agree with), I was responding to the notion of you being "annoyed" at Ellie sparing Abby in the end. Which I found a bit shocking.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Ellie had indeed killed her like you wanted her to. What then? Should Ellie kill Lev too to cover her tracks? Would that be okay with you since you were invested in one and not the other? If she hadn't, would you want a TLoU3 about Lev tracking down Ellie as revenge for Abby? And perhaps a TLoU4 about J.J. tracking down Lev, too? Because that would be the logical conclusion of the "an eye for an eye" mentality you wanted to see happen.

Instead, Ellie decided to break the cycle of violence. She chose to keep the best aspects of Joel and reject the worst. I see that as a reason to be relieved, not annoyed. But to each his own.

I agree that some of the stuff with the dogs, etc. was a bit on the nose. But... does that matter? You can ignore all of that and the core of the story still works. Even if the writers hadn't tried to humanize her so much, her motivation would still be the same: She wanted revenge for her dead father, same as Ellie. So why is one deserving of sympathy and not the other? Does Abby deserve to die because the writers were clumsy?
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DomsBeard
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

First paragraph again insisting I'm toxic after having a lack of empathy before. Don't feel repeating myself or explaining myself again to be honest. You know best
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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*Apologies in advance for the extreme post length, I'd intended to write a short summary. Oops!*

I spent twenty hours or so thoroughly rinsing Naughty Dog's magnum opus. I scoured every lovingly crafted environment, found every collectable and marvelled at the stunning tech, well drawn characters and snappy dialogue. Almost twenty years on, Jak and Daxter is still a brilliant game (sorry!). It was also the last game I played before The Last of Us Part 2, which I finished a couple of days ago.

Ultimately it was a failure for me, both narratively and from a game design perspective but my feelings on it are complicated so bear with me while I try and form them into something coherent. I wasn't actually going to post anything but thought it might be interesting for folks to hear from someone who didn't like the game who isn't a total psychopath who'd wish harm on it's creators!

I'll start with the story. A brave and hugely ambitious multi-perspective, non linear convention defying epic with industry leading tech, performances and direction. I have enormous respect for what ND attempted here, but for me it's a tale of under examined character motivations, muddled themes and plot missfires with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the chest.
Spoiler: show
Firstly the elephant in the room, Joel's death which serves as the catalyst for and the sole motivation behind Ellie's vengeful rampage. For me, my reading of the end of the first game painted Joel not as a heroic saviour ( how!?), or even a man that was desperately trying to protect someone he loves. To me he was an irredeemable, violent murderer commiting an act of extreme selfishness, out of fear of losing another "daughter" (he didn't deserve) irrespective of the enormous human cost AND deceiving Ellie so that she wouldn't abandon him. What a monster!

His killing at the hands of Abby seemed to me (even before any further plot reveals) completely understandable. I thought that her personal connection was already implied (and I assumed the firefly link) so she was never a villian in my eyes. Her actions were wrong of course, but her motivation was clear and relatable. The mercy her group showed to Ellie and Tommy suggested they were not just a gang of violent thugs that needed putting down.

This had the effect of making Ellie's revenge quest unjustified from the start, with the added bonus of making Ellie's single mindedness and unwaivering, murderous focus feel not only out of character, but completely ludicrous. After the suggestion (then eventual confirmation) that she knew what Joel had done, we can aslo assume she knew (with some degree of certainty) the reason for Abby wanting Joel dead and that, let's be honest, he had it coming. Ellie spent four years dealing with mental anguish over his actions, before even considering something approaching forgiveness, did that kick to the head give her memory loss? Did she suddenly forget her own personal trauma that this man caused?

There was an interesting potential story to be told here. A character study of the effects of inherited trauma from a violent parent perpetuating cycles of violence . Instead we get a far less believable (and less challenging) take of a woman blinded by revenge after being robbed of the opportunity to work through her forgiveness of a man that even she knows doesn't deserve it.

For me this meant that every target the game had me hunt down, every kill already felt wrong. I didn't want to punish these people. I didn't feel Ellie's rage and niether did I believe it was justified as a plot device.

When the mid game character switch happened, I already knew where this was going (as I suspect many other did). The problem is that I was not in the place with these characters that the creators expected me to be and it's further attempts to humanise and create empathy with Abby's story over ten hours did not hit for me. I was already there thirty minutes after booting up the game and some of the comically on the nose attempts to further my sympathetic view were cringe worthy.

It's an attempt at a conceptually clever narrative trick, but one predicated on an assumed relationship between player and characters from an original game with an ending that was intentionally open to interpretation. For it to be most effective, it requires you to have made the most surface level (and least interesting) take on Joel and Ellie's relationship. It is the central hook of this entire story and man, did it just not land for me.

I did enjoy Abby's section of the story however. I do have some criticism of her as a character though, as she seems to exist primarily as allegorical, ideological and often literal opposite to both Ellie's revenge spree (showing mercy where Ellie shows none), and her journey with Lev mirroring the two protagonists journey from the first game (respecting Lev's wishes over her own selfish desire for closure at the end unlike Joel). All characters in any story are plot devices of course, but for me though the writing was at it's best the further it strayed from it's central thread. There was some really great character work in there and some great moments between Abby, Lev and Owen.

When it eventually cycled back round to the theatre confrontation and then slogged to it's conclusion, I'd had all investment in the central conflict beaten out of me. The climactic showdown ending with Ellie finally letting go, not from a moment of clarity over the atrocities she has committed, the loved ones she'd used and abandoned, not a slither of understanding of Abby's suffering, but a memory of a moment when she showed forgiveness to her abusive, destructive father figure.

If it's central theme didn't resonate with me, any further attempts to extract intent and meaning were muddled by thematic conflicts on the nature of mercy, compassion, ideology, family and community in finding potential routes towards healing and breaking free of cycles of violence while simultaneously being perpetuators and instigators. That final impotent guitar strum back at the farm house a final heavy handed metaphorical reminder that for me, any further mental exploration of this story's subtext probably isn't worth the effort.
I should say, I commend the effort that's gone in to writing a story that invites this level of scrutiny and fully believe everybody's take is as valid as my own. It's not often we get a videogame plot that's worthy of genuine, nuanced criticism. Props to ND for going for it, even if i don't feel they stuck the landing

So...I didn't get on with the story. What am I left with? Firstly, the presentation is unbelievable. I've nothing to add to the conversation that hasn't been said but I think this is by some margin the most technologically impressive game I've ever played. Just stunning in every area.

The gameplay then? Admittedly I was already tired of this formula before I started the game but there was nothing here to convince me otherwise. As with all things this is very much a matter of personal taste but I've played too many games in recent years with this mix of shallow 3rd person combat, stealth and light exploration for it to excite any more. I was bored of it by hour ten. By hour twenty? I just wanted the thing to end.

A problem I have with a lot of AAA games in this mould is the prevalence of the contextual elements needed to portray a realistic character moving believably through an environment, limits what creators can allow player characters to do and means that responsiveness and control is taken away even for basic actions. I find a lot of the simple satisfaction of execution and player expression missing when so many actions are essentially performed for you. It's telling that in most of the game's more exciting set pieces and climactic encounters, what limited control you do have is pared back or stripped away entirely. There's not a lot of meat on the bones here but of course, gameplay or sytemic depth is not the priority. It's all in service of supporting the real focus, narrative.

ND's focus since uncharted has always been creating cinematic, story lead adventures and their games have often been criticised for being overly scripted and shallow but I've never felt it more keenly than I do here. As their storytelling ambitions increase and with their tech reaching ever higher heights, I do wonder whether this formula is truly the best vehicle for delivering a grounded, narrative focused game like this when, to my mind, so many gameplay compromises are made in service of the cinematic presentation. It just doesn't feel good enough any more. The infamous ludonarrative dissonance was in full swing for me here too.

If I think about story heavy games I've played recently that I've really got into they all have something in common. Interactivity and some form of player participation in forming the narrative with few or no action elements. The story is the gameplay. I'd love to see a game from ND where the gameplay itself revolves around story interactivity, not combat. Of course they wouldn't be afforded the same privilege of unlimited time and budget, the market wouldn't allow it. And that seems like a shame.

Overall then. A fascinating, flawed, polarising juggernaut of a game. I'm glad I played it. Despite my misgivings I've enjoyed hearing other opinions and it's great that so many people seem to have gotten so much out of it, even if ultimately, it wasn't for me.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by timmytimer »

A win from me. Probably my favourite game of all time.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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Stanshall
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Stanshall »

DomsBeard wrote: July 13th, 2020, 9:14 pm Couple of articles I've found interesting :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wccftech.c ... llain/amp/

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/last-of-us-part-2
Cheers, I'll have a good read.

Have you checked out these vids? Both very good. The first is particularly brilliant.

https://youtu.be/Bat38vErWr4

https://youtu.be/bh5gzGs-63Y
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

Started replaying TLOU Remastered last night. Going to play it through just to really look at Joel. Already forgot about
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Him leaving the people by the road at the start and the father's day card from Sarah referencing him never being there
.
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Jon Cheetham
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

Loved how the opening sequence of TLOU sketches out so much of what you need to know about Joel.

And yeah that Noah Caldwell Gervais video is a banger. I recommend digging into his channel for those who enjoyed it.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Electric Crocosaurus »

The discourse around this game has made for really interesting reading. It's a cliche that gets wheeled out whenever a game deals with adult themes, but I really do believe that TLOU2 is a big step in video games maturing as a medium. The argument for / against Abby / Ellie keeps revolving around this idea of who is a hero and who is a villain, because that's what the majority of games give you; a clearly-labelled protagonist who acts as an avatar for the player to live out their power fantasies. TLOU2 steps away from that and it's challenging for a lot of people, which is why I'm not surprised (just very very disappointed, in my best teacher voice) that fans of the first game have had violent reactions against the sequel.
Spoiler: show
I don't believe Naughty Dog ever set out to make people 'love' Abby, because they didn't create her to be a loveable character. Even ignoring the torture, she continues to kill throughout and sleeps with the 'boyfriend' of a pregnant woman. But she is understandable, and I'd hope that even the most ardent Joel fan would have empathy for a woman who saw her father executed, her extended family disbanded or killed, and her mental health keep her from being happy with the man she's attracted to.

Conversely I don't think Naughty Dog would want anyone to write off Ellie as a monster; at the end of her journey, when she finally has the opportunity for revenge in her grasps, she chooses life. Domsbeard's interest in Abby already being dead on the beach is completely valid, but it would turn the story into a much darker, nihilistic one and remove Ellie's choice to step away from her path of violence.

Empathy for both characters isn't a zero-sum game; I remained interested in both Ellie and Abby throughout and hoped for a happy ending even when it was clear that their character flaws made that almost impossible.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

Just finished the game last night and overall thought it was great. Upon completion I was really pleased with the whole story but reading this article highlighted some points to me around the ending that has changed my opinion on the ending somewhat. Overall though, despite these criticisms, it was one of my favourite PS4 games.

http://mikesuskie.blogspot.com/2020/06/ ... ddled.html
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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Angry_Kurt wrote: July 20th, 2020, 9:36 am Just finished the game last night and overall thought it was great. Upon completion I was really pleased with the whole story but reading this article highlighted some points to me around the ending that has changed my opinion on the ending somewhat. Overall though, despite these criticisms, it was one of my favourite PS4 games.

http://mikesuskie.blogspot.com/2020/06/ ... ddled.html

Read that article last night and it pretty much nails on my thoughts on it.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

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I remember hearing a week or so ago that Neil was talking about the possibility of a sequel, but I don't know where they can go from hear really. What do you all think?
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

Playable
Spoiler: show
JJ
taking on
Spoiler: show
his Dads killer
would be good ;)

Think it needs to be set elsewhere now I'd welcome
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California as that was a nice change or even Europe
New characters new stories
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

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The article I read was on about a Part 3. I can see them doing a totally different story with new characters in a different location, that would be cool, but then I wouldn't class that as a sequel. Part 3 suggests to me it was continue the story of the characters in the first two games. Following JJ could work I suppose as a Part 3 but him hunting down his Dads killer would be somewhat similar to what Ellie was doing in Part 2
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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The story of Part II doesn't really go into
Spoiler: show
Ellie's immunity in much detail. That's a whole story they could spin out over a sequel.

Personally the Downtown, Capitol Hill and Hostile Territory (Seattla Chinatown) levels make me want an open world spinoff. I think when Ellie is heading to Santa Barbara she writes in her journal that Las Vegas is heavily infested and some cities are walled up. I'd be up for a game set in an urban environment that you can clear area by area and repopulate with communities.

Alternatively, the opposite; an eight hour Lost Legacy type game that's a quick romp through a shorter number of really top notch linear levels, perhaps with the horror elements turned up. More levels like the hospital, the ferry and the skyscraper descent would really do it for me.
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