The Last of Us Part II

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KSubzero1000
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by KSubzero1000 »

After finishing the game a few days ago and taking the time to let it all sink in, my thoughts:

  • Gameplay
It's obvious that Naughty Dog and I will never see eye to eye on the topic of mechanical systems. I won't list off all of the things I would hypothetically prefer to see being done differently so I'll simply give credit where credit is due. The animations are breathtakingly detailed, the crafting system is solid, the weapons are varied and fun to use, the super-repetitive environmental puzzles of the first one are thankfully absent and the exploration sections are surprisingly substantial (safe cracking). The new "dodge" mechanic doesn't exactly turn it into Vanquish, but hey, I'll take it. I'm still not a fan of the brain-dead enemies and the inherent shallowness of the combat in particular, but within the context of what they're trying to do, the type of emotions they want to convey through gameplay and the way they like to interweave gameplay and narrative elements through heavily scripted sections, I think this is about as good as it gets and a significant step up from the first game. The minimal HUD is a very nice touch, too.

  • Presentation
The presentation, by and large, is absolutely incredible. Character models, facial animations, cutscene direction, textures, environments, etc... All top-notch, best-in-the-industry level. Unfortunately, I think the game isn't exactly doing itself any favors with its photo-realistic style. There are only so many derelict apartments and other familiar urban buildings I can visit before they all start to blur together after a while. Which is a shame because the graphic designers clearly put an insane amount of effort into the level design. Effort that I think would be much easier to appreciate with a different and more memorable art and/or presentation style. But I suppose that this would probably undermine a lot of the bleak, plausible world-building the story is based on.

I miss proper music in video games instead of this high-impact, low-substance ambient noise junk that so often goes hand in hand with the constant push towards photo-realism these days. Half-assedly scratching some guitar every 5 hours doth not a soundtrack make, Mr. Druckmann. Thankfully the small handful of proper (licensed) songs they use at key moments of the story are really good. The sound design is also top-notch, in and of itself.

PS: Although, both of these tracks are actually pretty good.

  • Story
Please don't click if you haven't finished the game.
Spoiler: show
I adore the bold narrative choices ND made here, since I'm a total sucker for stories with multiple protagonists and shifting perspectives. I'm perfectly able and willing to enjoy straightforward stories that are meant to be followed from the fixed perspective of the heroic protagonists facing against clearly designated villains (in Lord of the Rings for example, nobody would ever think of trying to understand Sauron's perspective), but if a character-driven story wants me to take a step back and examine different characters' points of view, I'm usually all for it. That's what makes The Bridge on the River Kwai, Heat and The Handmaiden so special. Gaming-wise, it's a big part of why I have grown so attached to MGS, Fire Emblem and even RE to an extent. It's why I think Halo 2 is the best in the series despite all of its (numerous) flaws.

"Everybody is the villain in someone else's story" is not exactly a very complex idea, in fact it is probably very easy to mock and dismiss as an entry-level pseudo-philosophical platitude if one is so inclined. But it is a valid point, and the world would be a better place if more people took it to heart so I'm always gonna be receptive to it.

I like this trope so much that I am willing to forgive a lot of potential problems in favor of that core concept. Which in turn begs the question: Am I enjoying this story based on its own merit or because its central theme resonates with me so much? I'm honestly not sure. All I know is that I love this game's narrative. From start to finish.

I think it is a testament to the quality of the writing that despite most characters in this universe existing within a morally grey area, you learn to understand and empathize with them after a while. They're capable of committing abominable actions under certain circumstances but they also have redeeming qualities and understandable motivations. No heroes, few villains, mostly just flawed people in a flawed world.

I don't necessarily agree with Joel's choice at the end of the first one since it is a deeply selfish decision that causes even more bloodshed and pain for others, but I understand why he did it even without being a parent myself. I might even have done the same in his place.

Abby is being introduced at her absolute lowest and is never showing any genuine remorse over Joel's murder later on, which is a very interesting narrative choice. But it makes sense. In her eyes, Joel is just a random thug who took her father away from her and deprived the world of its best chance at a brighter future. I completely understand why she would feel the need to track him down within the context of that world.

Ellie... is probably the closest thing this game has to a villain, honestly (not counting Isaac). The reveal that she had learned the truth about the Fireflies years prior really casts her bloodlust in a very unflattering light, and her mindless savagery towards Nora feels like a point of no return to me. She's impulsive, selfish, immature, lacks self-control and seems incapable of taking the rational advice of her closest allies (unlike Abby). Despite all of that, I can understand her as well. She's ultimately a deeply traumatized teenager whose closest parental figure was a violent murderer and who had to sink at her absolute lowest to finally regain some semblance of humanity. In the world that she lives in, I can understand that.

And yet, despite all the carnage and cruelty and injustice of this world, it's the little things that count. The little acts of benevolence from all these deeply flawed characters that end up making all the difference in the world. Joel saving a complete stranger as the final act of kindness of his life of savagery. Owen instinctively preventing Ellie and Tommy from being murdered and casually written off as collateral damage. Abby going back to check on the kids she has no real obligation towards. Lev pulling Abby back from the brink when she's about to murder Dina and Ellie in cold blood. Abby being mature enough to take his advice to heart despite her legitimate anger, which is ultimately what will save both of their lives later on. Ellie learning to forgive. Even at their worst, these are still human beings with the potential to do the right thing.

Killing off Joel makes perfect sense to me. The happy ending of the first game came at a high cost, it was only a matter of time before somebody would come to collect. Just because we know, like, understand and empathize with Joel doesn't mean that Abby is any less justified in her desire for revenge than anybody else is.

Some of the attempts to humanize Abby felt a little unnecessary to me, but that's only because I was more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt from the beginning. I also found it hard to empathize with Ellie after Nora's death. But I understand that ND were caught between a rock and a hard place on this one and that they felt like they had to compensate for most players coming into the game already deeply attached to Ellie by default. It's a difficult concept to balance out.

The sniper section against Tommy really hammers the point home that these people look like absolute savages from each other's perspectives. I thought that was very well done.

The theater showdown is by far my favorite part of the game, everything about it is just impeccably well directed in my opinion. The scene leading up to it on Ellie's side, Jesse's death, Abby getting the jump on them, the cliffhanger. Coming back to it from Abby's perspective, feeling her pain at the needless deaths of Owen and Mel, understanding her desire to end it once and for all with these scumbags who slaughtered all her friends after she chose to let them live, to the point when she comes so close to murder Dina out some basic primal sense of retribution, witnessing Ellie's desperation, to Abby being thankfully talked out of it by Lev, to her leaving and once again being the bigger person (ahuhu). So many raw, visceral, mixed emotions in such a short period of time. Just fantastic character work through and through. Voice acting was just... wow.

I also love all the neat little parallels between Abby and Ellie, since they are both on different parts of the same journey. Abby slowly finding a purpose post-revenge, Ellie slowly losing herself pre-revenge. Abby rejecting revenge in favor of motherhood, Ellie rejecting motherhood in favor of revenge. Etc. Lots of delicate scripting there, which I appreciate.

Not to mention the WLF and Seraphites who are unironically pulling one of those:
Image

It's not all perfect, of course. I wasn't a huge fan of the Santa Barbara epilogue sequence, for once. For a story that is so well-balanced between the two protagonists up until that point, it feels more like a convenient setup for the conclusion of Ellie's character arc than a legitimate, equitable conclusion. I also think it was needlessly cruel towards Abby for obvious reasons. In the end, the suggestion that Abby and Lev ended up reuniting with the Fireflies on Catalina Island was a nice touch.

Some of the social commentary is also a tiny bit on the nose and this type of story structure is hard to pull off so I'm sure this is an easy one to nitpick when it comes to the exact locations of all the flashbacks, etc... But ND could have easily turned this into the simplistic John Wick-style gory revenge story with heroic sacrifices that some fans apparently would have preferred. I'm very, very glad they didn't. I cried both when Abby stumbled upon the bodies of Owen and Mel as well as during the porch scene with Joel at the end, so as far as I'm concerned ND accomplished what they set out to do.
  • Reception
Spoiler: show
Man, to say that I was disappointed by the popular reception this game got would be an understatement. So many folks out there who decided they were going to hate it as soon they read the leaks and never gave the story a fair chance. Some of the biggest streamers out there apparently spent their entire playthrough just cracking jokes and refusing to engage in Abby's side of the narrative entirely. Review-bombing. Making videos breaking their discs (?!?). Just a completely immature knee-jerk response overall. To say nothing of all the usual bigoted and political side of things, of course.

You know last year when I was making my dumb point about the gaming community at large not respecting video games? Shit like this is what I meant.

In some ways, the game really made me think of MGS2. Not only in the sense of of the protagonist swap and superficial backlash, but also because I get the sense that the devs wanted to subtly criticize the fans who had missed the point of the previous game. A lot of folks treated MGS1 like a basic militaristic shooty bang bang escapist action game without paying much attention to any of the narrative themes, and MGS2 is very much a response to that in many respects. Meanwhile, a lot of players perceived TLoU as some sort of simplistic boomer power fantasy and idolized Joel as a flawless hero, and TLoU2 feels very much like a direct response to that as well. Interesting parallel.

It's a weird position for me to be in because I feel like I'm usually on the other side of that particular fence, lamenting that a long-awaited sequel to a favorite of mine doesn't live up to the original. In fact, some of the complaints I read reminded me of the ones I had about MGSV, for example. I don't even particularly like Druckmann as a director, he seems a bit full of himself, his weird twitter crusade was embarrassing as well and his negative attitude towards traditional gaming rubs me the wrong way. (I often get the impression that all the "Gaming finally grows up!" hot takes are more of a feature than a glitch with him). But man, talk about missing the point. I've heard the game being described as a "basic empathy litmus test" and I think there is a lot of truth to that. It's a bit of a Rorschach test, if you're willing to walk a mile in Abby's shoes you will have very different emotions by the time the game ends than if you don't. Its core message is also very much anti-tribalism. And their first reaction is to draw hyper-partisan lines in the sand and to show themselves as incapable of empathizing with a different character than the one they're used to. Jesus.

That's not to say that there isn't any mature, nuanced and respectful criticism out there, of course. But man, do the usual toxic, emotionally-underdeveloped, twitch chat spamming, irony-poisoned, ghoulish reddit Fortniters have a tendency to drown out everybody else. Yuck.
Anyway, what a game. It may not have the frame-perfect gut punch ending of the first one, but it is bold, powerful and important in its own right. One of the very best of this generation for me and I think it will age like a fine wine. I've been thinking about it a lot since finishing it and I like it more and more. I have no idea where they could possibly take the story next in a potential Part III but I will be there Day 1 if they ever choose to do so.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Two great YouTube video critiques of the game, for those interested. Spoilers, obviously:





The first one in particular is excellent.
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Stanshall
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Stanshall »

I'd also recommend

https://youtu.be/Bat38vErWr4

Exceptionally good comparison and analysis of the whole 'series'.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

Not that I think anyone will be make sure you don't read the photo of the terrible comments from people Neil Drukmann has received as it has massive spoilers in it on twitter. I thought I'd muted every hashtag and thought rightly or wrongly there'd be nothing spoilery but I think I've had the ending ruined without context right now.
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Angry_Kurt
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

Unfortunately I've seen them from the photos he posted which is really disappointing. Obviously the abuse he and others have got is horrendous but I wish he had blanked out the spoilers.
Spoiler: show
On a different note, I'm very early in the game and was shocked that Joel was killed so early on, whilst I commend them for killing off main characters, I was kind of disappointed his death didn't have a bit more of a build up
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Sinclair Gregstrum
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Sinclair Gregstrum »

The extraordinary bile being directed towards the developers and performers who created this game is truly disgusting.

The internet can be a cesspit at the best of times, but I find there is something especially gross about this toxic element of the gaming community that only seems to be getting larger and more aggressive as time goes on. Sure video games are an art form and serious critical thought and opinions are important to their growth and development. But some people seem to have completely lost sight of the fact they're also primarily, at their heart, an entertainment medium designed to be played and deliver fun experiences for their players. In the grand scheme of things, they're simply not that important, and to be so devoid of rational perspective that you threaten violence and death on the very people who have dedicated years of their lives to bring you these experiences, is just mind boggling to me!

Personally, I'm 7 hours in, and currently have no desire to cause harm to anyone involved. This may change. I'll keep you posted.
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Flabyo
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Flabyo »

There are lots of complaints that can be levelled at Naughty Dog, but disagreeing with story choices to the extent that you want to kill the actors... that’s just idiotic.

I absolutely think the media is right to pull the studio up on it’s working practices, they’re among the worst in the industry for it at the moment, but that’s completely divorced from this issue.

I still find myself wishing that Bioware hadn’t given in and changed the ending of Mass Effect 3, you can trace a lot of this kind of behaviour from that ‘win’.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by KSubzero1000 »

DomsBeard wrote: July 6th, 2020, 6:13 am Not that I think anyone will be make sure you don't read the photo of the terrible comments from people Neil Drukmann has received as it has massive spoilers in it on twitter. I thought I'd muted every hashtag and thought rightly or wrongly there'd be nothing spoilery but I think I've had the ending ruined without context right now.
If it makes you feel any better, I checked out the post in question and among all the, ahem... "political commentary" I spotted both real and fake plot info. So what you're referring to might or might not have been a fake spoiler after all.

Don't worry about it too much. Just keep on playing, man. It's worth it. :)
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Alex79 »

Flabyo wrote: July 6th, 2020, 12:03 pmI still find myself wishing that Bioware hadn’t given in and changed the ending of Mass Effect 3, you can trace a lot of this kind of behaviour from that ‘win’.
Totally agree, I had the exact same thought myself. Even at the time it seemed crazy.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

I didn't know about the Mass Effect thing having never played those games - I certainly hope ND doesn't give these people an inch. It's been good to see the creatives defend themselves and each other.

I have been thinking of The Last Jedi as the response from the internet's nastiest armpits to this game immediately reminded me of the backlash to that film.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

I said exactly the same thing to Jay the other night.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by duskvstweak »

It's weird to think, that as a fan, I just let stuff like Jurassic Park III, X-Men: The Last Stand, the Snyder-verse, One Hot Minute, most of Marvel's comic book events post-Civil War, latter Simpsons episodes, Andy Weir's Artemis, Ernest Cline's Armada and countless other disappointing pieces of entertainment and art just HAPPEN without ever threatening anyone's life.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Combine Hunter »

I usually associate Girlfriend Reviews with harmless, meme centric comedy, so was surprised to watch the video above and see them express a point better than I did on twitter regarding the relationship between Plot and Story telling.

I have some thoughts on the story that are too brief and scattered for a written piece, but wanted to get them down somewhere. Massive spoilers.
Spoiler: show
I think the game fundementally wouldn't be as effective, if Abby was simply given
sympathetic motivations through flashback, and we concluded the scene in the theater much sooner, like many folks who are more critical of the game have argued in favour of. (no ill will towards these people and not grouping them with abusive horde. Just different strokes in this case) Finding someone's motives sympathetic, is just not the same as knowing and caring for them more thoroughly. The Last of Us Part II's magic trick, is that when you return to the theatre after 10 hours with Abby, you are equally invested in both characters in a way that simply finding a villain's motive compelling, doesn't engender. I couldn't bear to see either character die, and I didn't want to push the buttons they game was forcing me too, while knowing that Abby motives made any other course an impossibility. The very end of the game, when you control Ellie again, had the exact same sensation. Naughty Dog often gets criticised for failing to tie its gameplay and story through cutscenes together in meaningful ways and in the past, despite really loving their games, I'd struggle to counter that criticism. In this game though, it's the way that it uses interactivity that makes it stand apart from other media that has explored similar territory. I feel very strongly that empathy is something games do exceptional well when compared to other media, even when arguably the quality of writing just isn't there! (COUGH) Metal Gear (COUGH). Controlling a character and investing time in them does something to our brains that forms a deep attachment. Ellie has the advantage of having residual empathy from the original game and the DLC, then you spend 10 hours with her in 2. A couple of hours with Abby wasn't going to cut it. You need to really get to know her, for the magic trick to work (plus the mirroring with WLF and the Scars was valuable in its own right, but that's a seperate topic). What is the purpose of the magic trick though? It's cool that we care about both characters, but what thematic service does that serve? I think the read on this game as a simple "revenge is bad" story falls short of what I experienced. This game is about forgiveness, not just revenge. It's power as a positive and life improving act, even though it is one of the hardest things any of us will ever do. Revenge leaves Abby empty, but forgiving two members of an enemy faction that has killed many of her friends, gives her renewed purpose and life. The flash of Joel before Ellie decides to let Abby go, that is later revealed to be the moment Ellie began to rebuild that bridge, is there to say that if Ellie could begin to consider forgiving an act as terrible as the one Joel commited, she could forgive Abby. And as the player, because we spent all that time getting to know who Abby is, we've already forgiven her and want desperately for Ellie to do the same. Revenge has already cost her her family and her last meaningful connection to Joel, but through forgiveness she can salvage what's left of the life she can return to.
Sorry if that's a bit all over the place, but had to get it down.
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Stanshall
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Stanshall »

I couldn't agree more.
Spoiler: show
I've seen a number of people saying 'yeah I got it but I didn't enjoy that aspect because it made me feel X' and I'm like 'yeah, that's the entire point'. It's not something you can appreciate on a purely abstract level, you have to experience it and your feelings change almost despite yourself. Likewise, the sense of being 'robbed' of the catharsis. That's the entire point. And further, the claim that the game has little to say besides 'revenge is hollow and destructive' also miss the point. It's not that the game has any revolutionary insight, but the way it makes you feel that truth through your own shattered motivations is extraordinary.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

On Alanah Pearce's podcast they were talking about narrative design vs the story the game is telling. The way it tells its story is superb whether or not you liked the story beats themselves (which I did).
Spoiler: show
I wrote a long review over on my Medium page, and one of the lines from the first game that I kept thinking of while writing it and since is Joel saying to Ellie at the end, "you keep finding something to fight for." That really describes Abby's arc perfectly to me - she loses so much over the course of the story, from her friends, her cause, Owen, but by the end she says to Lev "you're my people", and she fights tooth and nail to save him. When Ellie cuts Abby down at the end and she goes straight to Lev to help him I almost had a lump in my throat. She's left the cycle of revenge behind and found something to fight for.

That seems to contrast with Ellie, who has so much that is good to fight for - a partner, a kid, a beautiful house that due to the apocalypse twenty-somethings are able to live in. I guess it's that at the end she stops fighting for Joel's memory and against her own demons, and is able to put him to rest.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Electric Crocosaurus »

I'm really enjoying the discourse about this game; it's a game that deals in grey areas so there's plenty of space for debate to flourish! I loved it, or whatever term you should use for a grim, nihilistic journey of darkness, but agree that it's not without flaws. But then when I logically try to think how they might address those flaws I come up short:
Spoiler: show
Like how most of the major story beats take place during a 3rd person cut-scene, which always puts me at arms length vs something that happens within regular play. It meant that when moments like Mel being stabbed happened I didn't feel the guilt that some other writers have spoken of because *I* didn't do that. But then it's necessary to control the scene in that way because Naughty Dog is telling a verify specific story.

In contrast, the most awful I felt in the game was the first time I took out a guardsman walking with their patrol dog. If you do it stealthily then the dog will turn round and start nuzzling its owner, whining at the same time. It was heartbreaking because I had done that, and after waiting to see whether the dog would run away (it didn't) I felt compelled to put the dog out of its misery
I tried to coalesce my initial thoughts into a review but I already know there's a tonne of stuff that I've missed out so I feel I'm going to be re-visiting this in the coming weeks and months.

https://mondayonmymind.blogspot.com/202 ... eview.html
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

So having slept on it after finishing yesterday I can say it is definitely one of the games of the generation and enjoyed the ''game'' itself, however rightly or wrongly for me I didn't enjoy certain beats of the story, which is fine and I for some reason don't feel the need to send anyone any threats.
Spoiler: show
Going back to my earlier post I felt it went too early with the killing of Joel by Abby and the manner of his death. I guessed the whole point of the game would be to make me care about Abby as much as Ellie that I would be fine with her smashing one of my favourite video game characters to death with a golf club. Sadly for me I guess that never happened. I couldn't forgive her, maybe just shooting him would've changed that?.

Going back to the theatre as Abby I didn't want to pick up the pad and let her die and also I was annoyed when Ellie stopped at the end. I have not played any other naughty dog games outside of TLOU so I am presuming they never give you options in these games. I guess I don't see the whole point of travelling all that way to LA to not go through with it. I think it would have been better if Abby was already dead on the beach for me which would have better said that revenge is futile. That fight also reminded me of the
Spoiler: show
Higgs fight in Death Stranding to the point of parody
which didn't help. Also Abby gets away with Lev where as Ellie loses everything she ever cared about even up to the ability to play the guitar.

The story with Lev I loved and Owen I thought was a great character. I will play this through again shortly to seeif it changes my mind.
I also didn't enjoy The Last Jedi so maybe it's the way I'm wired :D
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

Also if FFVII Remake didn't exist this would be hands down my game of the year. I'd also like Naughty Dog even the Dead Space IP after
Spoiler: show
The section in the hospital
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

DomsBeard wrote: July 10th, 2020, 9:39 am Also if FFVII Remake didn't exist this would be hands down my game of the year. I'd also like Naughty Dog even the Dead Space IP after
Spoiler: show
The section in the hospital
That's a great shout from what I've played so far. It won't happen but it would be great if they did a new sci fi IP.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

Spoiler: show
Joel murdered Abby’s dad in cold blood for entirely self-serving reasons and in doing so prevented him from potentially saving humanity. Joel is the villain. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an interesting or relatable character, but as long as there was a sequel he was always going to get his comeuppance.
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