The Last of Us Part II

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DomsBeard
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

ratsoalbion wrote: December 1st, 2020, 9:37 pm Many people were most certainly wowed by TLoUII - see how well it's done in player voted end of year awards and polls for example.
The UK voted to leave the EU Leon ;)

I appreciate the game but not the story but I appreciate I'm in the minority. Had the same issue with The Last Jedi so maybe it's how I'm wired :)

I'm fully expecting the PS5 version to launch with dlc next year wonder where they'll go with that.....
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ratsoalbion
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

Oh yes, I’m not saying that popular necessarily = good - my comment was in response to Filth Element’s assertion that people simply weren’t impressed. Many weren’t, plenty were.


I think you just failed to realise that Joel was the villain all along, Rich...
;)
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Alex79 »

Filth_Element wrote: December 1st, 2020, 9:15 pmSo the sequel had a lot to live up to and unfortunately didn’t quite do enough to really wow us again as an audience.
But I think that for the huge majority of people, it did.
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Jon Cheetham
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

Joel is both monstrous and relatable. That's why he's a brilliantly written character. To me the best line from Joel in Part II was
Spoiler: show
"If I had the chance, I'd do it all over again." That was him finally being totally open with Ellie, and owning what he had done. I can't imagine myself doing different in his situation, if that was someone I loved on an operating table being offered up as a sacrifice. Having become a father, even more so.

But at the same time I can't honestly say he didn't have it coming and that there shouldn't have been consequences. I'm sure he knew the clock was ticking because of what he'd done, and Troy Baker said something along those lines when discussing the death scene if I'm not wrong. But again, would I accept that I was going to be hunted down and have my head caved in for my family? It's not even a question as far as I'm concerned.

I think that's why Part II has such strong themes of tribalism and loyalty, and the meaning of those things in the post-apocalypse.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Filth_Element »

I think I’m more referring to the discourse that surrounded the game. Because there was a fair amount of hate directed toward it. And I think ultimately there was a valid reason behind that criticism but it became a discussion about wokeness as opposed to fair criticism for the game.

For me it didn’t live up to the hype that I had for it. The first game was one of the first to feel like you were playing a game with a legitimate story which at the time was impressive. I think the second just didn’t feel as well rounded and thoughtful as the first did.

That’s just my thoughts on it anyway. Ultimately I enjoyed the game but the story was a let down for me.
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Jon Cheetham
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

I certainly feel like I became allergic to The Discourse this year, shortly before TLOU2 dropped. I'd already muted every word connected to it on Twitter plus various publications before the shit really hit the fan.

Great decision, as it turns out.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by DomsBeard »

Jon Cheetham wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 8:35 am I certainly feel like I became allergic to The Discourse this year, shortly before TLOU2 dropped. I'd already muted every word connected to it on Twitter plus various publications before the shit really hit the fan.

Great decision, as it turns out.
Yeah that was shocking, never understood that mindset and the whole agenda. Fair enough and valid not to like it but idiots took it too far as per.
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ThirdDrawing
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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ratsoalbion wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm I think you just failed to realise that Joel was the villain all along, Rich...
It's funny you say that. I had genuine moral qualms about the ending of the first game. So much so that I actually sold the game right after I finish it, which I never do. I didn't believe in the connection that Joel and Ellie had supposedly developed and I didn't believe that Joel would murder a building full of people to save her. Especially to doom the world to extinction vs a potential cure.

If they had give you a choice and presented two endings, (save Ellie or don't) even if one wasn't canon, I might have felt better about it. I read TLOU2 spoilers when they came out (because I had no intention of playing the game after the first one) and I just laughed.

Neil Druckmann's writing is just not for me. Uncharted 1 and 3 - the games Amy Hennig was more involved in, are far more suited to my tastes.

Neil Druckmann just seems incapable of having fun.

To put it another way - Amy Hennig's writing makes games that feel like Raiders of the Lost Ark and Last Crusade.

Neil Druckmann's feel like Temple of Doom and Crystal Skull.
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Angry_Kurt
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

I have to say I thought Uncharted 2 was one of the most fun gaming romps I've ever had
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Electric Crocosaurus »

ThirdDrawing wrote: December 10th, 2020, 10:39 am Neil Druckmann just seems incapable of having fun.
But then is TLOU2 meant to be 'fun'? It's entertaining (at least for those people who were engaged by it) but neither of the TLOU games are telling a story that is meant to work in the same way as the knockabout romps of the Uncharted games. There are moments of levity, and the relationship work offers some moments of respite, but this is meant to be a bleak world a la Cormac McCarthy's 'The Road' or various other apocalyptic stories.

Druckmann can do light hearted, as shown on Uncharted 4 (though I will admit that 4 is at least slightly more grounded than 1-3). I'm not trying to attack you in particular, ThirdDrawing, but there has been so much discussion online of the quality of the writing when really they're just taking issue with the plot beats. Players may well not like the choice made to take Ellie on the journey that she goes on, or how the closing moments play out, but for me that story was told in a compelling, relatable way by Druckmann and all of the production staff that contributed in their own ways.
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ThirdDrawing
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ThirdDrawing »

Electric Crocosaurus wrote: December 10th, 2020, 11:52 am
But then is TLOU2 meant to be 'fun'? It's entertaining (at least for those people who were engaged by it) but neither of the TLOU games are telling a story that is meant to work in the same way as the knockabout romps of the Uncharted games.
No it isn't, you're right. I was just trying to make a point that he seems incapable of doing games of styles other than TLOU 1/2.
Electric Crocosaurus wrote: December 10th, 2020, 11:52 am I'm not trying to attack you in particular, ThirdDrawing, but there has been so much discussion online of the quality of the writing when really they're just taking issue with the plot beats. For me that story was told in a compelling, relatable way by Druckmann and all of the production staff that contributed in their own ways.
I know you're not, it's totally fine. I just didn't think the first game did a good enough job in crafting a believable relationship that Joel would do the things he did at the end. I don't really have a vested interest in the games, I was just trying to offer some general criticism of Druckmann's writing.

And this is an incredibly nitpicky thing but we shouldn't have had an Uncharted 4. After the amount of time that Nate was diving at the beginning of the game, he surfaced right away. He'd have The Bends and probably be dead. I know it's pedantic, but I scuba dive and it was something that immediately took me out of the game. And I blame Druckmann for it!
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ThirdDrawing
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ThirdDrawing »

ThirdDrawing wrote: December 10th, 2020, 4:12 pm
Electric Crocosaurus wrote: December 10th, 2020, 11:52 am
But then is TLOU2 meant to be 'fun'? It's entertaining (at least for those people who were engaged by it) but neither of the TLOU games are telling a story that is meant to work in the same way as the knockabout romps of the Uncharted games.
No it isn't, you're right. I was just trying to make a point that he seems incapable of doing games of styles other than TLOU 1/2. And that's partly why I don't like his writing.
Electric Crocosaurus wrote: December 10th, 2020, 11:52 am I'm not trying to attack you in particular, ThirdDrawing, but there has been so much discussion online of the quality of the writing when really they're just taking issue with the plot beats. For me that story was told in a compelling, relatable way by Druckmann and all of the production staff that contributed in their own ways.
I know you're not, it's totally fine. I just didn't think the first game did a good enough job in crafting a believable relationship that Joel would do the things he did at the end. I don't really have a vested interest in the games, I was just trying to offer some general criticism of Druckmann's writing.

And this is an incredibly nitpicky thing but we shouldn't have had an Uncharted 4. After the amount of time that Nate was diving at the beginning of the game, he surfaced right away. He'd have The Bends and probably be dead. I know it's pedantic, but I scuba dive and it was something that immediately took me out of the game. And I blame Druckmann for it!
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Alex79 »

I honestly don't get the whole 'Joel is bad' thing for the choice he made at the end of the first game. In the same situation, I'd save my kid every single time. I know he's not Ellie's father, but that's the role he's in. Maybe that makes me some sort of sociopath? But no, I'd be grabbing the child out of there and killing anyone who got in the way.

By the way, one thing about the sequel I forgot to say, but I thought that...
Spoiler: show
...the portrayal of Ellie's PTSD in the epilogue was incredibly well done. Seemed very realistic and quite affecting.
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ratsoalbion
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

I get the parental imperative, but he didn’t need to murder all those medical folks in cold blood and doom humanity in the process. As I see it, not only is Joel clearly not a “good person”, the entire second game is basically a long, “Here’s why you really shouldn’t think he is” from the writer in response to those who bizarrely hero-worshipped the selfish, murdering bastard after the first game. Ellie wasn’t his daughter, and she wanted more than anything to be there on the operating table.

In my view Joel is a cunt several times over for what he did.

I recognise there’s often a big disparity between how parents and non parents feel about this.
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ThirdDrawing
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ThirdDrawing »

ratsoalbion wrote: December 10th, 2020, 6:24 pm In my view Joel is a cunt several times over for what he did.
I agree 100%. He doomed humanity to save his surrogate daughter that he had barely connected with to replace his dead one.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

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ratsoalbion wrote: December 10th, 2020, 6:24 pm I recognise there’s often a big disparity between how parents and non parents feel about this.
I think you’ve probably hit the nail on the head. On my first playthrough pre-fatherhood I couldn’t get my head around why Joel didn’t want to save humanity and his actions/lies were pure madness. His attachment to this child who he barely spends any time with just didn’t resonate with me.

However playing it again having had 2 kids I found the loss of his daughter and then him mentally replacing her with Ellie so much more relatable and powerful. I would do anything to save my kids and in the heat of the moment if someone was going to kill my child for a possible greater good I would stop them. It wouldn’t be the same way Joel did because I’m not a mass murder but in a post apocalyptic world where people kill to survive maybe my moral compass wouldn’t be as clear. In my head I convinced myself they didn’t have the resources or technology to reverse engineer a cure and her death would be futile. I don’t think Joel was thinking at all about this but that’s the way I would process/justify my actions so I could sleep at night. I’m a terrible human being🙃
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

Simonsloth wrote: December 11th, 2020, 8:08 am ...if someone was going to kill my child for a possible greater good I would stop them.
That's exactly it. It's a possible greater good. They'll kill this child for a chance. To be honest even if it was someone else's kid, I would feel like I had crossed a moral line by walking away and letting it happen.

Joel being an arsehole and the fact it has to be a videogame level so there's a ton of other people in his way complicates the central "what would you do" question, but so does the fact the Fireflies haven't even told this girl what they're going to do to her or why. For an organisation so sure they're morally justified in their actions they haven't even come clean to their sacrifice. And say they operate on Ellie and they can't formulate a cure, or they need more samples and need to find more immune kids - how many children would have to die in their hospital before it's too many?
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by Angry_Kurt »

Not that it excuses his actions but when people say he didn't have to kill all those people in the hospital in cold blood to save Ellie, but surely he did as that was the only way he could've saved her if that was his motive, unless I am misremembering that final mission and another option of saving her is presented to him.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

Great points of course, but once again though, people are ignoring the fact that Ellie had expressed explicitly that it was her wish to be used as a possible route to a cure. Even if you can somehow justify the murders, and the leaving of other children without parents, he went against his surrogate daughter’s wishes. Hence her own fury.
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Re: The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

Angry_Kurt wrote: December 11th, 2020, 9:45 am Not that it excuses his actions but when people say he didn't have to kill all those people in the hospital in cold blood to save Ellie, but surely he did as that was the only way he could've saved her if that was his motive, unless I am misremembering that final mission and another option of saving her is presented to him.
The way the level plays put is exactly what makes Joel such a bastard imo. It’s the way it’s written and the way you have to play it, but he could potentially have taken her and held her and made his way out as per a hostage situation, rather than summarily executing several medical professionals vital to the future of humanity. Each of whom had their own families now torn asunder. Terrorist behaviour and unjustifiable as far as I’m concerned.
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