Dark Souls I, II and III

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HoraceGoesSkiing

Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by HoraceGoesSkiing »

My first post here in about 5 years, I think!

I loved Bloodborne & DS3, was so gripped during both. Having never played a Souls game previously I went in with some trepidation but was hooked almost right away.

I've got DS2 to play at some point, but I just can't commit to it at the moment because of the late nights and many hours spent on it that I'd require.

BB - DS3 - DS2 is probably a weird order to play them in, I think?!
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James
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by James »

HoraceGoesSkiing wrote: April 29th, 2017, 10:44 am BB - DS3 - DS2 is probably a weird order to play them in, I think?!
Eh, you'll be fine! Just be aware that going back through the series you'll encounter some less-refined mechanics. ;)
HoraceGoesSkiing

Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by HoraceGoesSkiing »

James wrote: April 30th, 2017, 5:54 pm
HoraceGoesSkiing wrote: April 29th, 2017, 10:44 am BB - DS3 - DS2 is probably a weird order to play them in, I think?!
Eh, you'll be fine! Just be aware that going back through the series you'll encounter some less-refined mechanics. ;)
Yeah, I thought that'd probably be the case. Gives me an excuse when I'm rubbish at it 8-)
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

I'm about halfway through DS3 now. So far I can only agree with the consensus: the game very much feels like a "Best of Souls" in many regards. The good news is that it's a very polished, mechanically refined product which combines the best elements of the other games in the series while trying its best to not repeat known mistakes. There is little to none of the obfuscating opaqueness of Demon's Souls, of Dark Souls' second half's quality downgrade, or of Dark Souls 2's garbage level design. It even takes its fair share of inspiration from Bloodborne in a lot of places. The bad news is that by playing it so safe, it rarely feels as powerful and authentic as the others. Still, I'm enjoying my time with it a lot and it's probably the game I would recommend to anyone who would express interest in the series but would only have the time/money to play one single title out of the bunch.
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Chopper
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by Chopper »

How are you finding the bonfire-to-bonfire experience? There are quite a few tough enemies mixed in with the mooks, and generally in unavoidable places (i.e. Not like the black knights in the undead burg that were optional in a way). I'm thinking of the castle walls and the cathedral specifically. I think maybe the bosses are easier in general but getting to them is a stiffer challenge than previous games.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

I'm using my go-to STR/FTH build, which means that my trusty Claymore is taking care of things while I still have some Miracles to keep me afloat if things get too hairy. So I've not had any major survivability issues until now, although the Catacombs did prove tougher than I initially expected going in. I actually think the encounter design / enemy placement is one of the highlight of the game. Neither too tough nor too easy, and always fair. I definitely had more trouble in Bloodborne than Dark Souls 3 when it comes to the bonfire-to-bonfire (or rather, lantern-to-lantern) experience.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Finished Dark Souls 3 today. I have to say, I don't really understand why the game received such a lukewarm reception from longtime fans of the series. It is a bit heavy on the fanservice side and definitely lacks the "Woah"-factor of the first Dark Souls or Bloodborne, but in terms of strictly judging the quality of the entire product, I think it stands shoulder to shoulder with them. There are very few genuine flaws I can think of: the mechanics are wonderfully refined, the encounter & level design are fantastic, the art is superb and the boss gallery is one of the best in the entire medium. There are only two or three bosses I would consider to be somewhat subpar - the others all hit the sweet spot between fun, spectacle and challenge. The game really manages to combine the best aspects of its predecessors and none of their weaknesses, all within a highly polished product. I could definitely see myself returning to it time and time again. Is this a case of people being spoiled over time? Or maybe I'm just not that sensitive to the novelty factor...

Anyway, on to the DLC!
James wrote: April 13th, 2017, 9:05 am my feelings towards DS3 have only diminished with time. :cry:
I'd be interested in hearing more about why you feel that way, if you wouldn't mind. Or anyone else's criticism, of course.
Todinho

Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by Todinho »

Actually I've been thinking about this lately and trying to think objectively DS3 is probably the best out of the entire series, it's without a doubt the most complete game with the most content and you dont really feel that the team had compromise anywhere to achieve what they wanted, thinking on it the only area I really disliked was Boling lake and even then it was interesting lore wise. The weapons are the most varied and fun out of the whole series, it has some fantastic bosses while having no Bed of Chaos. EDIT: I forgot about Yhorm and the whole Profaned Capital bit, all of that is garbage.
So yeah thinking about it it is quite weird reception for 3 has been so tepid, honestly though I think it's mostly fatigue I mean think about it, souls was kinda of anualized we had DS2 in 2014, BloodBorne and SotfS in 2015 and then DS3 in 2016, the community is quite passionate about it but you're gonna get some burn out at some point. Having the last game been Bloodborne must also not have helped because that felt like a fresh take while DS3 is very familiar, this is like the third time we've seen an Ornstein design and seen colapsed kingdoms,etc.
One aspect that irked me in particular was the lore in the game, in the middle of DS3 I officially checked out of trying to piece the story because I just didnt care anymore, one of the main issues were the retcons they made which to me just lessened my investment it felt like trampling on DS1 and alot of it felt derivative to me.
But I think giving it a few years people will go back to this and probably appreciatte it more.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Series fatigue is probably the main reason. In fact, I didn't even buy the game when it first came out on account of having spent so much time with Bloodborne prior to it. I wanted to avoid burning myself out and decided to wait for a complete edition later down the line when I would be hungry for a new Souls playthrough. Seems like it paid off and that my experience with the game was significantly more satisfying as a result.
Todinho wrote: May 11th, 2017, 1:36 am But I think giving it a few years people will go back to this and probably appreciatte it more.
I hope they do, there is a lot to love here!
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James
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by James »

KSubzero1000 wrote: May 10th, 2017, 10:14 pm
James wrote: April 13th, 2017, 9:05 am my feelings towards DS3 have only diminished with time. :cry:
I'd be interested in hearing more about why you feel that way, if you wouldn't mind. Or anyone else's criticism, of course.
It's definitely not series fatigue... at least not directly. I enjoyed it at the time, mainly because of the mechanics, but also because of the call backs and returning characters, etc. I also think DaS3 has some excellent boss fights, both straight and gimmick.

Unfortunately, by the end of the game the lore didn't make a great deal of sense to me, not in the way that DeS, DaS1, DaS2 and BB did. Unlike those games, which knitted together as I mulled over them and replayed them in the months after release, DaS3 started to feel more like a series of cameos and set pieces stitched together without a lot of coherence. I know this is how many felt about DaS2, but the amnesia aspect of that game resonates thematically with me in a way that only the Yhorm/Siegward storyline did in DaS3.

In short, I really enjoyed the moment-to-moment of DaS3, but the lore is what cements these games into my mind over time. DaS3 didn't manage to do that, and the stuff I didn't like about its story/lore came to the fore the more I thought on it.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

I'm the complete opposite of someone who dismisses video game storytelling (hell, I can spend hours debating the intricacies of the Metal Gear canon for example), but I've always preferred to enjoy the lore of the Souls games from a distance, so to speak. I think that the opaqueness is somehow adding to the quality of the overall product rather than detracting from it. The world has this very strange and ethereal sense of myth to it. Most of what we see and hear are mysterious remnants of what has taken place before us. But those stories are more hinted at rather than told to us like in every other game. When I first arrived in Anor Londo in DS1 for example, I got a very strong sense of the history of that place merely by looking at and navigating through the architecture. It didn't feel like a video game level meant to entertain me on the way to the boss. No, it felt like this place had been a real city in the past, and that I was just passing through it centuries later. I was in Anor Londo, physically speaking, but Anor Londo was not meant for me. The world did not revolve around me at all. And so in the end, it feels to me as though both the player and the main character are just tiny little beings, flies on the wall so to speak, passing through an ancient and enormous world where thousands of other stories have already taken place, without ever being fully capable or meant to understand it all. There are hardly any cutscenes nor exposition-heavy monologues, and the NPCs you meet are either losing their sanity or speaking in riddles. And I think all of that adds a lot of weight to the experience. I'm not sure how much of what I'm describing is a core component of the design philosophy and how much is just me being stupid at putting the pieces together, though.

I love watching Vaati's lore videos like everyone else, but I tend to forget a lot of that information afterwards. It feels counterproductive to me to overanalyse these stories - the deeper you dig, the more magic you lose.

DS2 lost a lot of that magic with its more conventional player-centric level design and storytelling.


Now that I'm reading all this, it sounds really silly and melodramatic! But it makes sense in my head, I promise.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Finished the last piece of DLC today. Extremely satisfied with it all, but then again, the quality of the Soulsborne DLC has always been really high. Ashes of Ariandel is comparatively short but sweet with at least one fantastic boss fight, but it's The Ringed City that really took me by surprise - stunning visuals, wonderfully intricate level design and two of the best boss fights in the entire game. I even got a bit emotional towards the end, knowing that I'll probably never experience playing through a Souls game for the first time ever again. The feeling of dread when your supplies are running low and you're frantically searching for the next bonfire; the... "geometric satisfaction" of unlocking a critical shortcut; the abject intimidation you feel when going against some of the bosses, only to be replaced by the sheer euphoria of beating these overwhelming odds after many tries... I'm gonna miss that. I'll obviously revisit the series in the future, but any given Souls game's initial playthrough is a truly special experience. What an extraordinary franchise. Thank you for all these wonderful memories, FROM.

If anyone's still on the fence about the DLC, do yourself a favor and play it. Fantastic stuff, especially TRC.

PS: It took me the better part of a month to play through the entire game. Exploring every corner, taking in the scenery, interacting with NPCs, reading item descriptions, soloing every boss, helping people out, finding as many treasure as I could, etc... Just taking the time necessary to savor it all. I have no idea how people can just rush through something like this within 15 hours, only to dismissively complain about it on the internet afterwards. Pearls before swines indeed.
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by brutaldeluxe09 »

OK, I admit it, I'm obsessed with Dark Souls and have been on the look out for anything that could look as though it's even tenuously related and maybe used as an inspiration to the teams behind the artwork in the games. I'd love to see or hear of what ideas people may have on what inspired Miyazaki and others involved, so if anybody has any examples of artists/authors/film directors that may have influenced the series.

I can kick this off with these examples that look very much each like a souls scene, painted by the polish artist Zdzislaw Beksinski.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Stanshall
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by Stanshall »

I love his work but it is sure haunting! I find it hard to look away, I'm drawn into those horribly bleak gigantic landscapes. Brrrr.

The biggest influence, both visually and in terms of characters and monster designs and armour and weapon designs is the manga/anime Berserk, if you've not read/watched it.

I won't actually spoil any of it for you but Miyazaki is clearly a massive fan and everything from Artorias to the Messengers in Bloodborne and the ball of limbs from Tower of Latria is heavily inspired by Berserk. It's also a massive influence on the tone and atmosphere of the game, it's one of the heaviest things I've ever read or watched. Again, no spoilers but the 97 anime is well worth watching, the characters are beautifully portrayed, there's gorgeous music and some of the most jaw-dropping, heavy scenes I've seen in any other show or movie.
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brutaldeluxe09
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by brutaldeluxe09 »

Zdzislaw Beksinski was active for a while and has so many works that could be held up as an influence on Miyazaki. I too spend just spend hours staring at them.
Stanshall wrote: September 13th, 2017, 10:57 pm The biggest influence, both visually and in terms of characters and monster designs and armour and weapon designs is the manga/anime Berserk, if you've not read/watched it.
Thanks, I don't really follow magna/anime so had not heard of Berserk but a quick image search clearly shows a heavy influence. I shall dig a little deeper.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Bloodborne-related, and therefore slightly off-topic, but ever since that game's announcement, I've noticed some obvious visual similarities with the 2000 french period action film Le Pacte des Loups (The Brotherhood of the Wolf).

See for yourself:
Image
Image

The rest of the movie / game is different enough that it could very well be a coincidence, especially since they both take inspiration from real life Renaissance / Victorian era clothing. But since I'm not familiar with any other contemporary work which displays this particular costume design so prominently, I thought it was at least worth mentioning.
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by Alex79 »

It's classic highway man costume isn't it? Dick Turpin and the like?
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James
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by James »

Given the wide range of inspirations drawn on in the Souls games and Bloodborne (many of which are European in origin), I'd kinda be surprised if Brotherhood Of The Wolf wasn't an influence. I'm not sure Tricorn hats, highwayman coats, hunters, outsiders, and wolf-like beasts are specific enough on their own, but the combination definitely evoked that film for me.
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by Flabyo »

The look of the main character in Brotherhood of the wolf is classic highwayman, yes. But his fighting style in that movie is full on martial arts.

That movie actually has influence on two Lionhead games. The design of the wolf had some influence in the ‘evil wolf’ model in black and white 2, and the highwaymen in Fable 2 are very much inspired by it as well.
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James
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Re: Dark Souls I, II and III

Post by James »

Oh, I wouldn't suggest the influence extends into any mechanical aspects; it's all in the aesthetics and themes. Hidetaka Miyazaki's team have been known to draw a lot from western influences, including literature, period style and architecture.

Whether Brotherhood Of The Wolf is an influence in this case (rather than film and game sharing common, earlier inspiration) is entirely my conjecture, of course. Just suggesting that there's a sufficient confluence here to surprise me if there wasn't a connection.

Also, isn't there a trick weapon in Brotherhood Of The Wolf?
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