All things The Legend of Zelda

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InsrtCoins
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Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (12.2.17): The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

Post by InsrtCoins »

I'm really disappointed that I can't record on this show (due to my job). This podcast was actually the one that I was looking forward to the most, and the reason why I was playing along with all of the Zelda games for the show up to this point.

I have a huge case of mixed feelings on this one. I think that this game has some of the most brilliant moments in the entire series (with the standout, for me, being the scene in which we sail through the desert by creating a rift in spacetime that reverts the area immediately around us to the ocean that used to be there). An absolute miracle of a moment! I also thought it was really clever how the world began to look like an impressionist painting farther away. It's so much more interesting than standard distance blur or fog. I still haven't seen a "distant objects" effect cooler than that!

Overall, though, I would count this one as one of my least favorite Zelda games because I feel like they really botched the pacing. The interest and engagement curves were all over the place throughout my playthrough. Moments of excitement and intrigue were undercut by *really* grueling, slow traversal bits and, even worse, collecting those damn ... Tears of Light? What were they called in this game? As well as the legitimately terrible (below Nintendo standards, anyways) Imprisoned fights. Really frustrating, monotonous portions that added little if anything to the game and just GROUND all of the fun that I was having to nil multiple times throughout the adventure.

Also, the game just kept going and going long past it had shown every trick that it was going to pull. An elegant story gets in and gets out quickly, leaving the audience wanting more. Questlines kept getting tacked-on to Link's adventure, in a really sloppy manner. It always explained with an "Oh yeah! I forgot! You're ALSO going to have to collect five of THESE things too! Silly me!". I don't mind long games, but I felt like Skyward Sword was being deliberately obtuse by constantly moving the goal post back every time we approached it. These additional quests undercut the significance of the previous quest, so the game's narrative arc felt less like an arc and more like a misshapen mess.

Skyward Sword DESPERATELY needed an editor who was bold enough to tell the team what needed to be chopped out to deliver a tighter, more satisfying overall game.

As for some very minor nitpicks: character design is hit-and-miss. Most of the townsfolk have fun designs, but I don't care for Link's (he's not supposed to have a green cap, since this takes place before The Minish Cap, and I can't stand his Al Capone lips). Also, I don't think that playing the harp really ... works. I like it, because I think it's funny that Link's just clumsily flailing around on the damn thing and the game just *accepts* it as "music". It's amusing, but I'm pretty sure it did not have the effect that it was supposed to. It doesn't feel like an artifact of tremendous power like the Ocarina of Time or the Wind Waker did.

I also really like Fi (battery reminders aside). Her design is really cool, her GLaDOS voice always cheers me up, and her computer-isms walk that line of 'ancient times / future tech' that the series has always hinted at. I pronounce her name "Fee". I understand most say "Fai". But, come on! We've agreed that the correct pronunciation of Ico is "Ee-co" because the team is Japanese. Do the same rules not apply here?

Skyward Sword is like the neighbor you invite to your Christmas party that you can never remember why you never hang out with. He gets there, has a few drinks, tells some stories, and entertains the guests, but then he overstays his welcome. As much as you try to politely hint that it's getting late and he should be on his way, he just won't leave.
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Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (12.2.17): The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

Post by Craig »

For the most part I adored Skyward Sword. I loved the art style which cleverly hid a shorter draw distance and the music hit the right level of majesty. I thought the items were inventive (even if a lot of the game seemed to be a fleshed out version of Wii Sports resort) and the controls worked well for me. I didn't mind the closed off less exploratory nature of the game; it was different from other Zeldas but they based the game around it. And I liked that they made the low level scrub enemies Japanese Oni, right down to the tiger pants.

Some of the issues I had stem from the control scheme, but not with regards to its efficacy. Because combat was based around this control scheme it effectively turned every fight into a small puzzle. One which you have to complete over and over. And because many of them were timing based, if possible I simply ran past grunts rather than spend time attacking. Maybe I was missing something, but even with item use this never seemed to get any faster through the game.

The sky was also a big problem for me. I understand it was meant to convey a vast land, but because there were so few places to go and few little threats, it was just dull.

It should have felt like you were soaring with infinite freedom, but because below you there was nothing to see but clouds, it didn't feel particularly high or fast.


But overall I had a great time with it.
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Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (12.2.17): The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

Post by AndrewBrown »

I went on a bit long and had to stop myself from continuing to keep this at a semi-reasonable length.

Skyward Sword lives and dies by its use of Wii Motion Plus. I can understand people who would rather have a “traditional” control setup, and I’m sympathetic to those who simply can’t interface with it, but I think it’s an overall success. I have derived a great deal of satisfaction from the combat, and often suspect people who complain that it “doesn’t work” are still trying to waggle.

The first boss, Ghirahim, is a stellar example of Wii Motion Plus in action. He is able to "read" the player's input, and can easily block sword swings, literally yanking the sword from Link's hand. To defeat him, you have to telegraph an attack coming from one direction, but really swing from another at the last minute. It's a brilliant moment, effectively communicating to the player that, from here on out, Twilight Princess-style waggling won't be enough to get by. Skyward Sword takes the somewhat mindless and rudimentary combat of past Zelda games and makes it the core of the entire experience, transforming scripted swings, swipes, and stabs into a technical and nuanced parley of combat. Success requires patience and precision; it's a totally unique experience, and it’s all due to Wii Motion Plus. The downside is, all of this may be very understandably outside the skill level of many players.

I am more critical of Wii Motion Plus integration in other areas. Skyward Sword uses it for aiming instead of the infrared sensor. This creates problems; whenever I equip an item, the direction my remote is facing becomes the “center,” creating inconsistent aiming with every use of an item, necessitating constant readjustment. Contrast with Twilight Princess or Link’s Crossbow Training, where the infrared sensor serves as the “center,” creating a much more consistent feel every time I use an item. Using Motion Plus to select menu items creates similar issues. The nadir is playing the Goddess Harp, which feels more like conducting than playing a harp. I wonder why we didn’t see the return of the Wind Waker instead, especially with how the rest of the game revels in referencing past series titles.

But past the technology lies the game itself, and Skyward Sword feels like a shallow, half-finished world. Rather than an overworld like past polygonal Zeldas have featured, each area is essentially a dungeon, filled with puzzles and unique combat scenarios. This makes an initial visit to an area feel interesting and engaging, and even allows for some great surprises—the first time I played, I didn't realize the Sandship was a dungeon until I was halfway done with it. But outdoor areas are still expected to pull duty as an “overworld,” so when I return to them later in the plot it feels like wandering the halls of a dungeon whose puzzles I’ve already solved. There’s also an unfortunate amount of padding—the forced return to Skyview Temple for Sacred Water is surpassed only by the Song of the Hero sequence in unnecessary filler, on par with gathering Triforce fragments in The Wind Waker. Doubtless, all this filler and retreading is due to storage issues of the Wii Optical Disc; all that wonderful technology, plus the fully-orchestrated soundtrack, plus the lush character models, must push the Wii to its limit. I wonder what Skyward Sword may have looked like if it were made it for the Wii U instead.

But other changes to the Zelda formula I more readily embrace. The need to upgrade Link’s inventory and repair his damaged shields creates a stronger relationship between the player and these items. Since past Zelda titles have begun to suffer from “inventory fatigue,” where items felt useful only in the dungeons where they’re obtained, I appreciated this effort to make them feel more important and essential to the journey. This also makes the home town feel important, serving a purpose other than just a save point like Link’s Kokiri treehouse or the Temple of Time. All of this serves to create a more intimate relationship between player and videogame.

I could go on and on about Skyward Sword, but I have gone on for too long already. So let me summarize everything else: Ancient Cistern and Koloktos must surely be among the best dungeon and boss designs in the entire franchise; this game seems to treat women consistently worse than they have been portrayed in past Zelda titles; Groose is an interesting character, probably the original Ganondorf (his scarf has Ganondorf’s jewel on it), and I’d like to see the story which explains how he becomes the regular container of Demise’s curse; The Imprisoned is a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad boss; and yes, Fi is annoying and completely kills pacing with her constant interruptions to state the blatantly obvious.

A year ago, I predicted I would be an apologist for Skyward Sword just as I was for The Adventure of Link, and that proves to be the case. I am disappointed that Breath of the Wild returns to a traditional polygonal Zelda control scheme, as I hoped it would be a chance to experience a refined Wii Motion Plus-based experience in a fully-featured game world. I accept that Skyward Sword will probably be regarded as a failure by most, and a curiosity by few, but I have admiration for it.
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by AndrewBrown »

I hadn't quite finished my replay of Skyward Sword before the podcast recording date, so one thing didn't get enough comment which I think is a big problem: Padding. There's a lot of padding in Skyward Sword, and it really drags the entire game down. Fighting the Imprisoned three times over, the entire Song of the Hero quest chain (barring perhaps the portion in Lanayru, which actually sends you to a new area). I characterized on Twitter thusly: "Skyward Sword is the videogame equivalent of stuffing a sock down your shorts; you're so concerned that what's there won't be good enough, that you ruin what is there—which is perfectly fine—with a lot of disappointing padding."

I know it's too late for the podcast, but I just wanted this to be here for posterity, because it really should have been said in my original notes. I think less of Skyward Sword overall solely because of what happens in its second half.
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Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (18.3.17) - The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

Post by AlexMaskill »

Easily my favourite of the handheld Zelda games. Approachable, beautifully designed, lovely to look at and a really great evocation of Link To The Past. The thing that always stands out to me the most is that its audio design really is wonderful, and really gives the world a lot of sense of place. Definitely my second favourite 2D Zelda after the original LttP, now that I think about it.
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by GoodShrewsbury »

AndrewBrown wrote:I hadn't quite finished my replay of Skyward Sword before the podcast recording date, so one thing didn't get enough comment which I think is a big problem: Padding. There's a lot of padding in Skyward Sword, and it really drags the entire game down. Fighting the Imprisoned three times over, the entire Song of the Hero quest chain (barring perhaps the portion in Lanayru, which actually sends you to a new area). I characterized on Twitter thusly: "Skyward Sword is the videogame equivalent of stuffing a sock down your shorts; you're so concerned that what's there won't be good enough, that you ruin what is there—which is perfectly fine—with a lot of disappointing padding."

I know it's too late for the podcast, but I just wanted this to be here for posterity, because it really should have been said in my original notes. I think less of Skyward Sword overall solely because of what happens in its second half.
Well said Andrew.

Finishing SS for the podcast inspired me to replay Twilight Princess, only having completed it the once when it first released on Wii a decade ago. And man, is that game really good. Now, having recently completed both Zelda games, I really see why I felt Skyward Sword was somewhat hollow. The world of TP just sucks you in and surrounds you with interesting level design, dungeons, and denizens. I always felt the SS experience was always at the margins of that immersion. I've said this before, Skyward Sword is a great game but it's only an average Zelda experience.
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Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (18.3.17) - The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

Post by Kid Skitzky »

(First it's worth mentioning I was unable to replay the game for the podcast, so these thoughts come from vague recollections of when I finished it in early 2014. However, I do think there is much value to be seen in those aspects of a game you can remember far after you've completed it, so I decided to include my thoughts anyway.)

Suffice it to say, the Zelda series has carried a tremendous amount of prestige in the pantheon of video gaming. My deep love for the games began as a youngster at the age of 7 or 8 with Majora's Mask (now I'm a college student in my early 20's). But I adored the portable games like Oracle of Ages/Seasons, and even Phantom Hourglass. I remember visiting my grandparents' house and using their dial-up to skim through walkthroughs online. Every now and then I'd print out a page or two, but usually I left the other puzzles to be solved with as little help as possible. It felt like part of the adventure. I loved the rush of satisfaction from hearing the classic audio cue of solving a puzzle. To this day, that sound is so sacred to me as a fan of Nintendo's universe. As is the entire Zelda series.

Fast forward to 2014, and Zelda has evolved. This isn't the 8-bit Link of before, but an incredibly fleshed out world with years of work to perfect it. When A Link Between Worlds was announced, like everybody else, I was quite eager to play it. It's embarrassing to admit, but I have still never played its predecessor, A Link to the Past, mostly because I've been so satisfied with modern Zelda iterations. So I played and finished it a couple months after launch to find it as bold and progressive as entries previous, but also, maybe not entirely for me. When it comes to what I appreciated, I think the best place to start is with its diligence in streamlining many little annoyances I've never noticed in Zelda before. Things like an energy gauge replacing consumables helps reduce busy work. Also, the big mechanic of the game, merging into walls as a mural, is a very clever effect but also a profound statement how a 3D Zelda changes the entire perspective of the game in ways a pixel-based 2D Zelda never could. It pays homage to A Link to the Past, but asserts itself as a fresh new take on what Zelda is today. I remember the last boss fight being brutally difficult compared to other battles, but the way you finally defeat Yuga was a great way of capping off the game.

All these great parts are why I feel bothered about other things bringing the game down. I think I have to start with difficulty. I don't like mentioning this, because there's a sect of gamers out there with a "git gud" mentality, that games need to be hard or challenging, otherwise they don't give you as meaningful an experience. I think that's extremely narrow-minded. The significance of challenge in a game comes down to the way it's designed. We should be asking: does the enjoyment of a particular game rely on its ability to demand a higher level of effort from the player? I think "difficulty" is a hard balance to reach, between challenging the player versus alienating those who just want to play through a game. That said, I found the entirety of the game, mostly the dungeon puzzles, to be incredibly easy. I played through the game on auto-pilot, because the puzzles never required me to invest much, if any, mental effort. I wouldn't be bothered if I didn't feel that the fun of Zelda is in its puzzle design. I think this could be a consequence of the open world no longer having a difficulty curve, since the developers could never predict which dungeon you would enter next. My guess is that Nintendo wants to make the game more approachable for a younger audience. I wish there were a way to please both newcomers and veterans in this respect. There are other issues I had too, like the wall-merging, which works as an incredible shift in 3D perspective in the context of a top-down experience, but doesn't feel much more than a wall shimmy nowadays when 3D perspective is so commonplace. Also, Yuga just was not a compelling villain, feeling a bit too similar to Ganondorf. Mostly though, my personal disappointment lies in the puzzle design, which didn't land for me.

Even at its worst, A Link Between Worlds is still a Zelda game, with the core features I know and love. Anyone with a 3DS should give it a shot. Despite the issues I had, I look forward to revisiting this title again. Before that, though, I plan on sinking my teeth into Breath of the Wild. Because wow, that game. I mean... wow.
Nick Beaumont

Re: Our next Zelda podcast recording (18.3.17) - The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

Post by Nick Beaumont »

If I were to review A Link Between World in three words, I’d say this: remake done right.

Although labelling the game as a remake is in danger of missing the point entirely. Yes, the overworld is pretty much the same as it’s SNES counterpart, but structurally The Legend of Zelda hasn’t diverged so much in years. Rather than working through a linear progression of dungeons that can only be completed through use of a specific item found inside, items can now be acquired in any order via though Ravio’s shop. Dungeons are no longer tied down to a single item, and for the most part can be approached in any order, giving you complete freedom over how you tackle the game.

Playing through for the first time, I remember experiencing this wonderful dichotomy between exploring a world I was intimately familiar with in a way that was completely new and fresh. The game is very self-aware of its linage, and constantly subverts the player’s expectations as to what will happen next. Remember that unforgiving ice temple on the bottom right of A Link to the Past’s map? Well that’s now the fire temple. Expecting your escort in the Thieves’ Hideout to once again turn into the dungeon boss? Well that’s no longer the case – the boss now is a much bigger brute. The games knows exactly where to stick to the original template and where to do it's own thing, and it's the space between the old and new that has the capacity to surprise and delight.

I’ll admit on the rare occasions the game does go into cut scene mode I wasn’t 100% convinced by the character models, with link himself looking a little bland and stocky. For the most part though the graphics are outstanding – clean, lush, and with a fluidity I’ve never before seen from a Zelda game. Link traverses the world at a hugely satisfying pace, whipping out his sword to quickly dispatch swathes of enemies who explode soft plumes of smoke. All of this is compounded by a medley of lovingly remastered Zelda tracks, with the Hyrule Field theme in particular injecting a huge amount of energy.

Talking of Hyrule Field, in my opinion their simply hasn’t been a better designed overworld in a Zelda game. Skyward Sword tries to do something similar with a more condensed map and areas you revisited several times, but the whole thing came across as baron, and the separate areas too segmented. In contrast, A Link to the Past’s Hyrule is bursting at the seams with secrets. Literally every square of the map contains a hidden cave, a character who needs help, or a hidden collectable. I loved the edition of Maimai – little creatures that hide in fiendish places, but once collected can be exchanged for weapon upgrades. It was also great to see there is so much that can be bought with Rupees in this game, meaning that after dispatching enemies I was actually bothered to collect the loot they left behind. Never has Hyrule Field felt so engaging and finely crafted, with exploration exquisitely rewarded.

Do I think A Link Between World is a better game than A Link to the Past? Well it’s certainly a pacier, more fluid experience. I don’t care too much for the added exposition, but Lugo is a great villain, and provides a good backdrop for the genius wall-merging mechanic. Overall they are both fantastic games, and while A Link to the Past has always been the template for forthcoming Zelda games, A Link Between Worlds has also evidently impacted the series, with its non-linear DNA clearly visible in Breathe of the Wild. In that way, A Link Between Worlds is quite literally linking between worlds - between the old Zelda we know and love, and the fresh, exciting future of the franchise BoW promises.
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by chase210 »

I went looking for Zelda Spirit Tracks in town today, only place I found it was one of those overpriced retro shops for £35! Blimey.
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by ratsoalbion »

I ordered it from Cex for £15 when playing it for the show.
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by chase210 »

I've ordered online from Cex before and received things either missing covers or being rather dog eared, I'll avoid it if possible :P If I hadn't listened to the podcast before hand, I'd have bought the Wii U version!
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Re: All things The Legend of Zelda

Post by ratsoalbion »

My copy was fine but yeah, luck of the draw when it comes to condition!
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Re: Our next podcast recording (18.3.17) - The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

Post by AndrewBrown »

Here we are on the other end of the Zelda series, and A Link Between Worlds is a great game to end on. It's a culmination, taking where the series began and showing where it's going: Towards linearity and a guided, authorial experience, and then away from it, empowering the player to make their own choices of the when, where, and why. This videogame began life as a straight remake of A Link to the Past, and it shows with a first act that models itself perhaps a little too deliberately on that venerated title. But then you hit the Dark World... I mean, um, Lorule, and you are thrust out to do the remaining dungeons in (almost) any order you like. After the patronizing Skyward Sword, this is a refreshing return to the non-linear first entry, and it portended where the still-in-development Breath of the Wild would be headed.

But I'm conflicted as to the actual quality of A Link Between Worlds: Is it a legitimately great game, or is it cribbing all of that competence off another great game, A Link to the Past? I'm really not sure—but I had a great time with it, so what does it matter? In a series fraught with formula and imperiled by repetition, this entry provides the needed tweaks while still honoring its predecessors. Could it have been better if it made an entirely new environment to play with Link's new toys instead of bootstrapping them onto old real estate? Perhaps. Nevertheless, the series was given a rejuvenation, but maybe even that is not what Zelda needs. Maybe the series needs to quit looking backwards and start looking forwards; Breath of the Wild feels like a fulfillment of that idea, and if A Link Between Worlds proves to be the last "traditional" Zelda game, then it will be a worthy swan song to that legacy. It's a distillation of some of the best stuff in the series, but with just a hint of the future to keep things moving forward.
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