The Sony news and discussion thread

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Suits
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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James wrote: April 8th, 2020, 1:20 pm "Haptic feedback" was absolutely one of the terms used to describe the Xbox One controller's triggers. It sounds, from the PlayStation blog post, like Sony are also introducing adaptive tension, but otherwise, the variable rumble is exactly what Xbox One controllers have, unless I missed something.
James wrote: April 8th, 2020, 1:25 pm Looking into it further, the Xbox One triggers can vary the level of rumble, so I guess that's what makes it haptic feedback, over and above regular rumble motors. Similar to the HD rumble in JoyCon, I suppose?
The PS5 will use a much more evolved version of this feedback which will deliver a much wider range of feedback through inputs rather than the traditional (DS4 or Xbox One) rumble weights on motors.

For as much stick as Nintendo got for it's "HD Rumble" feature of its hardware, think of how much more refined that whole experience is to say the normal rumble of a DS4.

The PS5 will use technology like this in its new evolution of controllers.

Also, it's my understanding that the PS controller will have haptic feedback all over the controller board, not just the triggers. Things like the analogue sticks etc.. which will give off a very slight buzz when developers choose them too.

So, "Xbox have already done this" answer seems a bit daft to me. It's a new feature for a company, going into a new generation of it's controllers - I would certainly expect Sony to make a thing about it, they seem to be quite excited by it.

Besides, everyone will just point at the original DualShock and say - "Hey !"

Wired article from August 2019 wrote: The controller (which history suggests will one day be called the DualShock 5, though Cerny just says "it doesn't have a name yet") does have some features Cerny's more interested in acknowledging. One is "adaptive triggers" that can offer varying levels of resistance to make shooting a bow and arrow feel like the real thing—the tension increasing as you pull the arrow back—or make a machine gun feel far different from a shotgun. It also boasts haptic feedback far more capable than the rumble motor console gamers are used to, with highly programmable voice-coil actuators located in the left and right grips of the controller.

Combined with an improved speaker on the controller, the haptics can enable some astonishing effects. First, I play through a series of short demos, courtesy of the same Japan Studio team that designed PlayStation VR's Astro Bot Rescue Mission. In the most impressive, I ran a character through a platform level featuring a number of different surfaces, all of which gave distinct—and surprisingly immersive—tactile experiences. Sand felt slow and sloggy; mud felt slow and soggy. On ice, a high-frequency response made the thumbsticks really feel like my character was gliding. Jumping into a pool, I got a sense of the resistance of the water; on a wooden bridge, a bouncy sensation.

Next, a version of Gran Turismo Sport that Sony had ported over to a PS5 devkit—a devkit that on quick glance looks a lot like the one Gizmodo reported on last week. (The company refused to comment on questions about how the devkit's form factor might compare to what's being considered for the consumer product.) Driving on the border between the track and the dirt, I could feel both surfaces. Doing the same thing on the same track using a DualShock 4 on a PS4, that sensation disappeared entirely. It wasn't that the old style rumble feedback paled in comparison, it was that there was no feedback at all. User tests found that rumble feedback was too tiring to use continuously, so the released version of GT Sport simply didn't use it.

That difference has been a long time coming. Product manager Toshi Aoki says the controller team has been working on haptic feedback since the DualShock 4 was in development. They even could have included it in PS4 Pro, the mid-cycle refresh—though doing so would have created a "split experience" for gamers, so the feature suite was held for the next generation. There are some other small improvements over the DualShock 4. The next-gen controller uses a USB Type-C connector for charging (and you can play through the cable as well). Its larger-capacity battery and haptics motors make the new controller a bit heavier than the DualShock 4, but Aoki says it will still come in a bit lighter than the current Xbox controller "with batteries in it."
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

Post by James »

Fair enough, and thanks for posting the quote from the Wired article; I hadn't read that since August and had forgotten much of it. I would say that Microsoft were talking about their "Impulse Triggers" for Xbox One in much the same way as that Wired article describes the features for GT Sport.

I'm not surprised that Sony are trumpeting this, but since I can't honestly say I notice the impact of the improved haptic feedback in the Xbox One triggers or the HD rumble of the JoyCons, I'm going to remain sceptical about how much of a difference this will make to my gaming experience.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

Post by Stanshall »

Good post, mate.

Another thing on the HD Rumble is that when used well, it's still quite exceptional and adds a lot. Take the chopping down wood rumble in Animal Crossing. It feels like a little chuk chuk chuk sensation, you can picture the hole it leaves in the tree. Same with the MK8D coin vibration which sounds and feels like a ch-ching. It can be pretty special.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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James wrote: April 8th, 2020, 3:58 pm Fair enough, and thanks for posting the quote from the Wired article; I hadn't read that since August and had forgotten much of it.
Yeah, I’d forgotten the majority of it too to be honest - apart from the controller stuff.

I have thing about controllers you see.

I’ll admit that I was left pretty flat by the rumble triggers on the Xbox One, it was decent for feeling ABS on Forza but once you get serious at the game you turn ABS off anyway - so that was that.

I find the most impactful vibration seems to be in slower instances, or slow paced scenarios.

Like lock picking, or counting how many balls are in the box.

When you’re looking for it it feels great but in the instance of a firefight with a gun say, I find the sensation gets lost in the grander moment.

We will see, but this PS5 pad certainly seems to be packed with tech.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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Stanshall wrote: April 8th, 2020, 3:59 pm Another thing on the HD Rumble is that when used well, it's still quite exceptional and adds a lot. Take the chopping down wood rumble in Animal Crossing. It feels like a little chuk chuk chuk sensation, you can picture the hole it leaves in the tree. Same with the MK8D coin vibration which sounds and feels like a ch-ching. It can be pretty special.
Yeah, Nintendo’s HD Rumble is cool, if a bit primitive in it’s first form.

It has a much wider range of scale and can be used for many many things.

They’ve just got to keep it bloody quiet 😄😄.


Sony are talking about micro vibrations coming in through the analogue sticks to simulate air ripples while parachuting - you can see what they are talking about can’t you !!
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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The two issues I have is that the more elaborate tech get crammed into a single controller, not only does the price of a single unit skyrocket but it also becomes more fragile and susceptible to breaking down.

I'm somewhat skeptical.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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I'm definitely concerned about that too, and the knock-on impact that so much tech/functionality could have on battery life. DualShock 4 is absolutely one of the worst controllers I've used in that respect. And they aren't cheap to replace once the battery becomes a token gesture.

Oh, and if the d-pad could have 4 discrete buttons and actuators, that'd be swell. So frustrated with d-pads not properly separating inputs so that pressing towards the edges of any one direction results in a diagonal input. Harumph!
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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James wrote: April 8th, 2020, 5:20 pm I'm definitely concerned about that too, and the knock-on impact that so much tech/functionality could have on battery life. DualShock 4 is absolutely one of the worst controllers I've used in that respect. And they aren't cheap to replace once the battery becomes a token gesture.
To be honest, I haven't taken my DualShock 4 off of the USB cable in months. I basically use it as a wired controller, no point playing around with that pseudo-battery and its fake promises.

So much for modern convenience! :roll:
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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At first I was pretty positive on the new controller, but after mulling it over I think I'm a bit underwhelmed. The look of it is fine, good even. I do like the two-tone separation of it, but I'm not too fond of the white. I'm sure there will be options for other colours at some point though. The ergonomics should be good, as it looks very similar to a lot of other nice feeling pads out already. I'm sure it will be a very good controller to actually use.

But then I realised there was zero mention of any buttons on the back of the controller. They haven't ruled that out yet, as they haven't even shown that side of it in pictures, so we can't know for sure. But I'd say without them mentioning it already, that's a good sign they don't exist. I was looking forward to that being a standard feature going forward. I think a lot of games would benefit a lot from having a couple of extra buttons on the back, giving you way more versatility with what you can have access to at once. And back buttons have been one of the biggest things people have praised about the Xbox Elite controller, and other similar pads. Seems like a no-brainer addition.

So comparing that to the new tech that we do know about and possibly have instead, it seems like kind of a bad trade-off that's wasting resources on something that's far more complicated and less useful. Like the haptics seem like they might have potential, but are they really necessary? Will developers even use them? Even as someone who will advocate for how well the similar rumble triggers improve the Forza games, this seems like something that maybe one first party game might get good use out of, but then every other dev will likely not bother with, or maybe just experiment with a gimmicky implementation at the start of the generation before giving up on. Much like with the touch pad. Practically no game even uses it, and when they do, it's for something that is easily ignored. So why do we have that again? Like Ksub brought up, it just raises the cost of the pad for something no one really cares about. Making something that looks like progress merely for the sake of it. When they could instead make a much more meaningful change with something that is much cheaper, with those extra back buttons.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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I spotted that there was no mention of back buttons too. I've never used a controller with them myself but I assumed the attachment for the DS4 that Sony released a couple of months ago would have led into the new controller.

This Eurogamer article on that attachment links to a Sony patent from last year for back buttons but the diagrams show them on a DS4.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digi ... controller
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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KSubzero1000 wrote: April 8th, 2020, 5:40 pm
James wrote: April 8th, 2020, 5:20 pm I'm definitely concerned about that too, and the knock-on impact that so much tech/functionality could have on battery life. DualShock 4 is absolutely one of the worst controllers I've used in that respect. And they aren't cheap to replace once the battery becomes a token gesture.
To be honest, I haven't taken my DualShock 4 off of the USB cable in months. I basically use it as a wired controller, no point playing around with that pseudo-battery and its fake promises.

So much for modern convenience! :roll:
I might be in the minority but the battery life on my launch controllers is still pretty good despite heavy use. I have no rational explanation for this but I must be in the minority.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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Suits wrote: April 8th, 2020, 4:16 pm
Stanshall wrote: April 8th, 2020, 3:59 pm Another thing on the HD Rumble is that when used well, it's still quite exceptional and adds a lot. Take the chopping down wood rumble in Animal Crossing. It feels like a little chuk chuk chuk sensation, you can picture the hole it leaves in the tree. Same with the MK8D coin vibration which sounds and feels like a ch-ching. It can be pretty special.
Yeah, Nintendo’s HD Rumble is cool, if a bit primitive in it’s first form.
In the interests of science, I thought I'd reattach the regular JoyCons to my Switch for Animal Crossing this evening. I've heard that catching fish (for example) is greatly improved with HD Rumble, and it's certainly nicely implemented, but I soon started to forget it was there.

Add to that that after an hour or so of handheld play my hands started to ache and cramp (particularly around the thumb joints), and the feature is nowhere near worth it for me, sadly. I'll stick to the ridiculously-large Hori Split Pad Pro that I usually use (with no rumble whatsoever, and no gyro or NFC to boot).

I've taken to using my Xbox Elite S2 pad on PS4 so I can have access to the remappable paddles/profiles that I have set up on it. I generally prefer the Xbox controller layout to the DualShock, and appreciate being able to get really familiar with one controller, even if it means losing out on touchpad and gyro functionality. Unique features just aren't going to outweigh comfort for me, it seems.

Looking forward to trying the DualSense out though. Very interested to see if Sony can craft something that encourages me to stick with it over the Elite S2.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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ColinAlonso wrote: April 8th, 2020, 10:26 pm I spotted that there was no mention of back buttons too. I've never used a controller with them myself but I assumed the attachment for the DS4 that Sony released a couple of months ago would have led into the new controller.

This Eurogamer article on that attachment links to a Sony patent from last year for back buttons but the diagrams show them on a DS4.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digi ... controller

Yeah I was considering picking that attachment up because it seemed really useful for DMC. And recently I've been watching some crazy gameplay vids of Doom Eternal too where they use one, and it looks like having those extra buttons is a big reason for how good they are. I suspect that thing won't fit on the new controller though, considering how differently shaped it looks.

Also I did go looking for whether it was still possible to buy that gadget today, and all the official sources have long since run out of stock. But you can pick one up on eBay for £70...
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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Simonsloth wrote: April 8th, 2020, 10:27 pm I might be in the minority but the battery life on my launch controllers is still pretty good despite heavy use. I have no rational explanation for this but I must be in the minority.
Well, SOMA only requires 2-3 button inputs per minute so that might explain things. :lol:
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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Simonsloth wrote: April 8th, 2020, 10:27 pm I might be in the minority but the battery life on my launch controllers is still pretty good despite heavy use. I have no rational explanation for this but I must be in the minority.
I do not know how you have managed this! I've had two DS4s drop to under three hours play off a full charge and am well on the way to a third doing the same.

I don't often play for three hours unbroken, but I'm basically expecting to have to charge the DS4 at the end of every session, or play whilst plugged in when it dies. Compared to being able to put fresh batteries into an Xbox 360/One controller, or the ~40hrs of play from a Switch Pro Controller or my Xbox Elite Series 2, it really has been laughable for me, sadly.

You must teach me your magics, Simonsloth! ;)
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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I can’t remember the last time I used my dual shock without it connected to the PS4 by its charge cable. (Same with the xbox one, but that’s cause I’m using a wired pad now anyway, I found a third party one I really like that has extra buttons in the back which makes me suck a lot less at Overwatch and Apex)
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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It’s so odd. I can play for a whole day without a charge and these are launch ps4 controllers! Maybe the launch day ones were blessed with stronger stuff or I’ve found some perfect charging technique or maybe like Ksub suggests I don’t press many buttons 🤪

The plastic has perished on the thumbsticks so I’ve have to replace that but battery life is a solid 5-6 hours on a bad day. I don’t think they’ve ever run out on me.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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So according to my favorite PlayStation Blog spammer ( :P ), I am apparently going to be blessed with a free digital copy of Knack 2 that the entire world is jealous of in a few days.

Can't miss out on that one for sure.
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

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Think Journey and the Uncharted Nathan Drake Collection are free from today, though I already own both so it just says purchased and I can’t confirm!
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Re: The Sony news and discussion thread

Post by Sinclair Gregstrum »

Great video (as ever) from Digital Foundry about the possibilities of PS5 backwards compatibility, discussing the fuzziness around Sony's definition of it so far, titles that could really benefit from a boost in available resources, and potential limitations based on the original PS4/PS4 Pro versions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aLyNM2zK1M

That last part is particularly interesting, as they're essentially saying that even with all the extra power of PS5, many PS4/PS4 Pro games with dynamic resolutions won't automatically be maxed out up to 4K and the like, because of pre-existing caps.

PS4 Pro games often max out at 1440p, with that actually set as the top-end resolution cap even if the resolution of the game in question is dynamic. That means on PS5 all you'll get is games hitting that cap more often (or hopefully all the time) vs them fluctuating to lower resolutions in challenging areas as they do now.

By comparison, Xbox One X hits native 4K/2160p often, and generally has that set as its cap on games with dynamic resolutions. So in theory we'll get games actually running at higher resolutions on a last-gen Xbox One X vs the PS5, as the latter will be held back by the limitations of it's older siblings. The only way around it would be for devs to go back and patch their titles and either raise or remove the resolution cap.

Boring techno-bable to some I'm sure but I find that quite interesting, and certainly a bit of a challenge to Sony being able to deliver a back-compat solution close to what Microsoft is planning for the Series X.
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