BioShock, BioShock 2 and BioShock Infinite (SPOILERS)

[PressEscToExit]

Question regarding tears: So when Elizabeth is opening tears in Fink Manufacturing to find Chen Lin, do you completely leave behind the world you started in? She opens a tear to a world in which Chen Lin lived, but... do you ever get back to the original world, or do you just hop from world to world? You seem to end up in a world where the Vox Populi have the guns you need, but is that the world you started in? Or does it not matter? That part just made my head hurt.

There's a diagram on the wall at one point near the end - can't remember if it was in Rapture or on Comstock's ship - that explains it. It's just a little branching structure showing the path Booker/Elizabeth took through the various parallel realities.

Basically they move into a new, separate reality every time they step through a tear. So, for example, in the reality you're in when the game starts, Elizabeth and Booker disappeared into thin air at one point and that universe continued without them. At the very end of the game, Booker and the various Elizabeths return to an earlier point in the timeline to stop Booker ever becoming Comstock and so erase everything that happened after that point.

I like what they did in that closing shot, with the musical cue playing every time an alternate Elizabeth disappears. Elizabeth is left alone and the screen goes black before the last note plays, similar to the spinning top from Inception. I guess whether or not she blinks out of existence entirely is dependent on if she was conceived before or after Booker refused to be baptised? Our version of her can't exist, since she's been shaped by events that only occur if Booker lives, but it could be argued that there is an Anna or an Elizabeth somewhere.

[Todinho]

Well if Ken Levine want's to please the fans he could give our choices some freaking meaning!That would be nice for a change.
What I meant by the Lucetes is what was their end game in all of that I know they want to stay together but what killing killing booker to avoid comstock acomplish to them?It was just to undo what they've done?If im not mistaken there are 3 DLC planned so whatever it is they are making it's probably gonna be good.

And think it's safe to say she was conceived after the baptism since comstock had no daughter and she was but a baby when sold.

[Cass]

I think there's an essay out there entitled "What Is The Deal With The Luteces?" that's just waiting to be written. Hands down best characters in the game, though that could just be my crush on Jennifer Hale resurfacing after all these years. I think their motivation was probably just eventually realising the consequences of their actions in "creating" Elizabeth and attempting to rectify it, although god knows why they needed Booker since they seem to have incredible godlike powers.

Thanks Esc, I'll be sure to look that up whenever I get the time to replay it.

@Todinho: I actually really liked the fact that the choices don't affect your game in any meaningful way. We're all so trained to consider decision points like that in terms of consequences on the rest of the game that, in some ways, it takes you out of the experience. You're less making a choice in the moment, and more attempting to game the system. Removing consequence frees you up to make personal, moral choices. The Walking Dead was much the same in that your choices didn't really affect the eventual progression of the story at all, so the thought process is less "well I want to choose X to progress into Y part of the story" and instead becomes more gut reaction. It's a nice touch. Bioshock Infinite is quite meta like that in a lot of ways because it plays on what you expect of it as a game, and that's pretty clever. Is it implemented in the best way possible? Probably not. But that kind of player manipulation is still not something you see in a ton of games.

[PressEscToExit]

And think it's safe to say she was conceived after the baptism since comstock had no daughter and she was but a baby when sold.

Not necessarily - the way I saw it, the baptism scene could have taken place after he'd handed over Anna. He refuses to be baptised because he decides that he doesn't deserve to be absolved of his sins, then chases after Lutece to get her back. That was how I read it at the time, but I do think it's purposefully vague.

[AndyKurosaki]

Put a few hours into this, and it's very special indeed. Bit of a pain you only carry two weapons at once, but other than that, brilliant.

[Todinho]

I actually really liked the fact that the choices don't affect your game in any meaningful way. We're all so trained to consider decision points like that in terms of consequences on the rest of the game that, in some ways, it takes you out of the experience. You're less making a choice in the moment, and more attempting to game the system. Removing consequence frees you up to make personal, moral choices. The Walking Dead was much the same in that your choices didn't really affect the eventual progression of the story at all, so the thought process is less "well I want to choose X to progress into Y part of the story" and instead becomes more gut reaction. It's a nice touch. Bioshock Infinite is quite meta like that in a lot of ways because it plays on what you expect of it as a game, and that's pretty clever. Is it implemented in the best way possible? Probably not. But that kind of player manipulation is still not something you see in a ton of games.

But in the walking dead your choices have meaning they might not cause a big impact but YOU the player is making them and affecting the game in one way or another.In a story where choices literally make realities it's a massive waste of what they could do,and they did it knowingly they choose to tell this story of thousand possibilities placed choices in front of you and made them mean nothing,instead forcing you to follow the path they choose,which from a character standpoint I like it's a nice conclusion to the story and all but in my opinion it's nothing that couldnt be achived using other types of media,what they could but didnt do was build upon your choices and made a an ending that would indeed elevate it to the flawless masterpiece level that everyone is talking,in the end they say "play it my way or dont play at all" people acuse spec ops of doing that but even then they gave you choices that shaped your experience even the original bioshock which the point was to show that the player wasnt free enterily free in a videogame gave you a choice that impacted the game.

I know everybody says that the game is not about choices it's about the characters and that's ok i like the ending viewing it that way but that type of message that i felt the game was telling me reguarding videogames just rubs me the wrong way.

Not necessarily - the way I saw it, the baptism scene could have taken place after he'd handed over Anna. He refuses to be baptised because he decides that he doesn't deserve to be absolved of his sins, then chases after Lutece to get her back. That was how I read it at the time, but I do think it's purposefully vague.

but if im not mistaken the baptism occurs just after wounded knee when Booker was torn apart by the things he'd done and since he was at war and Anna was a baby when sold I think it takes place afterwards,I could be wrong though.

[Todinho]

Well im not being completely fair there were 2 choices that had some meaning at least to me: the first reguarding trowing the ball,even if it was just to reward you later if you did the right thing and the Slate one i which I had to kill him that gave no reward in game but it impacted my experience,the choices in tha 15-minutes gameplay demo also show something that I wanted more out of the game those choices wouldnt necessaryly give you anything in game terms but they could be used to give more weight to what you're doing and in a story like this even surprise you.

[Imo]

Sorry Esc I have to agree with Todinho, Anna was conceived after the baptism, if Booker did not get baptised. Had it been before then Comstock could and would have taken Anna with him to Columbia removing the need for him to abduct/buy her.

The ultimate tragedy is that the death of Comstock is also the death of Elizabeth. No Comstock means that Anna is not taken to Columbia - No Anna means no Elizabeth.

Thats the thing Cass I am not desperate for DLC because I think the game lacks something it is simply that I think that there is so much more story to tell.

I wasn't certain of the Lutece thing on my first playthough but much more so upon my second. The exchanges between the two of are up there with uncharted, some superbly written dialog that is delivered exquisitely, I hadn't realised it was Jennifer Hale until you posted then I could hear it, she is brilliant but personally Comstock is my favourite, it is so rich and full of character, potentially this is the best game ever in terms of voice acting.

In many ways I think bigger choices with no impact would have worked well structurally - the message being that you can't fight fate, everything is as it must be. Although I have to disagree Cass, to have choice you must have consequence, otherwise no choice has any value. The moment to moment choice making of the walking dead works because everything has consequences, the biggest failing is that the narrative itself is rarely affected by the choices so the ending is not your ending but theirs. (none of this is actually a problem when the package is as good as it is) However your earlier point of the pendent was something I did really like, Constantly I was on the lookout for it to become a plotpoint but it never did which is a nice touch. It is just that within the framework of a multiverse story in which choices create completely new worlds/scenarios not having that as a feature seems like a missed opportunity. A subtle situation involving the pendent and some sort of Chaos theory would have been a nice touch.

My understanding was that the Luteces were attempting to create exactly what happens - their end game was the end of the game. Rosalind originally wanted to provide Comstock with his heir via her invention, doing so created the cycle of destruction this always lead to. They want to set things right and know that just killing Comstock is not enough as their will always be the same scenarios in other worlds therefore they need Booker to find out and and end it at the point he does we can assume that they do not know which door leads to the correct point in time so need Elizabeth, we can also assume that they enjoy observing the constants and variables for every time Booker attempts the rescue (they are essentially betting each other over your choices like with the heads or tails and sandwich board)

[Buckled Kipper]

Stayed up till 3.30 in the morning last night to finish this. It's quite simply on of the best games I've ever played. Most criticisms I've read tend to be based around what people would like added (and made out of love for the game) rather than the game getting things wrong.

For me though, it's pretty damn perfect.

[DomsBeard]

I think the way the games been advertised has led me to not enjoy this as much as I probably would if I'd ignored all the trailers and stuff before that. As I mentioned in a previous post I'm baffled by the lack of

Spoiler: show

Songbird in the game. After the start and trailers I was expecting him to be after me like a nemesis on crack throughout the game constantly pushing me on and getting in the way. A bit like in Bioshock if they changed it so the big daddy's attacked on sight for example. Songbirds supposed to saving the lamb from the False Shepherd so where is it? Migrated? Week off?

I'll probably feel an idiot posting the above after finishing the game but I felt like putting this out there....

Still bloody love the game though!

[Cass]

Spoiler: show

He does sort of... bugger off after that initial bit. He really was made out to be very Nemesis, wasn't he? Except he gets a bit wet, then flaps off to lick his wounds for roughly half the game.

[magicjoef]

So, even though it installs through Steam, due to my slow internet and the fact Amazon had an equivalent price I picked up the disc version.

I just heard the box art is reversable (old news apparently). If you haven't checked it out you should, it's really nice!

[Cass]

There's this weird backlash against Infinite going on right now, mostly because I feel as though it's being held to much higher standards that basically any other videogame - unrealistically high standards, considering the medium and the hype that's surrounded it. It's like so many people were hoping Infinite would be this transcendent video game experience that would somehow legitimise the whole genre - so judging by those standards, it's not surprising that it'd fall short.

It is (and remains) an excellent video game by the standards of the medium. By the standards of great works of art... of course it falls short. But that's like being presented with a thoroughbred racehorse and being disappointed that it's not a unicorn.

[Leg of Time]

Ok, it's 3 am and (barring around 1/2 an hour to recover) I've just finished Infinite. Played it for the last 5 hours... which I don't think I've ever done with another game (disability gives me bad back pain if I play for more than 2 hours). But was motivated by the story and characters to play past my limits and experience the end of this game in one chunk...and...it's fucking awesome!

Lots of spoilers

Spoiler: show

I'm far too tired to talk in depth about this but...
I think this may have pushed Bioshock 1 off my top spot of 'favourite game this gen'. It's basically perfect, excellent story and characters, great combat.
...and you go back to Rapture!!! I really couldn't believe it when that happened, basically sealed it as one of my favourite games!

Far too many things to mention, so many great bits in it!

...also, Columbia version of 'tainted love' is excellent!

[Buckled Kipper]

4 days on from finishing this and I still can't stop thinking about it. Going to have to do a second play through soon which is something I never do.

Sod the backlash, for me this is possibly my favourite game of all time (though I appreciate that time needs to settle to be sure of that).

[magicjoef]

I'm not sure how much backlash there is? I've heard some criticism on a couple of podcasts, but always framed with 'I love this game'. It's so good that is is robust enough for good discussion and proper critique.

[Todinho]

Well i dont know I have some problems with the game myself and I think the critic response was a bit overblown but I still adore it and consider it far better than the original if there's a backlash it probably comes from peoples expectations being inflated by the reviews.

[AndyKurosaki]

Finished this last night, for the most part it's excellent. The final battle was a bit of a chore, though maybe I should have mixed up my Vigors a bit more. I've seen many people say they love the ending, while I think it's good, I haven't been thinking about it to the extent most people have.

[AndyKurosaki]

I must say I'm not totally sure what I think of the ending. The impression I got from it is that with Elizabeth killing Booker before he could become Comstock, she effectively wiped out everything that just happened, including herself. I've seen some interesting theories, but I have to be honest and say I'd not even thought of them.

And as mentioned, Songbird is really underused. And did anyone else find it quite cold the way Elizabeth finishes it off?

[Todinho]

I think we touched upon what you're saying earlier in this tread but I've seem some interesting interpretations we didnt think/mentioned here in the spoiled games show on rev3games.