BioShock, BioShock 2 and BioShock Infinite (SPOILERS)

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

Post by Todinho »

haha pretty much how I feel fair enough

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

Post by Imo »

For the moment I would rather avoid spilling every thought I have on the game as I have so many I need structure.

Leon has often spoken of the opening to the original being breathtaking whereas 2 lacks the same effect. How did you feel about the arrival in Columbia Todinho? While not a gut punch like Rapture the opening church area is achingly beautiful. It is the perfect feeling of divine purity that even the nonreligious such as myself find in churches.

How about a talking Booker De Witt, fan or not?

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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I myself really loved the opening it plays with the original and the introduction of columbia is great I was literally speechless the first time, as for the De witt I really liked him he was a bastard but he wasnt stupid and unreasonable many of his reactions were mine as well and he reminded me of solid snake for some strange reason so that's a plus the problem I start having is in the ending,im going through it again as well cause i just feel that im missing something I gotta be.

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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I get the solid snake thing, I really liked the way he wasn't just a wise cracker or only a grizzled, world weary veteran, not cold hearted or overly humanistic but fully shades of grey that shift throughout - natural. The voice acting is excellent although I still always think Snow Villiers when I hear Troy Baker.

The Beach scene is amazing, I am completely in love with it. Elizabeth like a child fascinated with everything, filled with joy at her sudden new freedom, dancing and smiling without a care in the world, at that point it is clear that the future is dark for De witt and Elizabeth so it is beautifully bittersweet - Girls just wanna have fun being played is superb, the whole thing is a scene from the movie.

For the ending my first thought was that Elizabeth is too calm throughout but when it was done I really wanted the two of them to have been in love evens lovers before the reveal and have the news shatter them as they do in a certain movie I won't spoil but is one of my favourites.

Did you think that there seemed to be a lot that could have been developed further throughout?

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yes! I completly agree one of the things I didnt like about the ending was discovering who Brooker was,I thought that maybe the story could take this turn but I was really hoping for something different,I think it disapointed me more because it seems for me that a bunch of games lately have been playing the Father and daughter card I would much rather be a love story or even just friendship between the 2 to me it would be much better just so I wouldnt have to see the same thing again,that's probably only me though and I cant fault the developers,and yeah i really think the game could have used a lot more of down parts like the begining,the beach and in the boardwalk those were my favorite parts of the game and they could have used to flesh out the world more talk about the songbird relationship with Elizabeth(something that wasnt really clear),give more insight into the situation of the city and so on.And I was a little upset by the way she reacts in the end especially because i dont think that the rules of the universe are very well estabilished.

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magicjoef
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

Post by magicjoef »

I finished this evening. What a fantastic game!

I think the environment and atmosphere were fantastic.
The kinectic and dynamic combat really built on the ideas laid down in Bioshock.
Elizabeth and a talking protagonist really worked for me, it really made it feel different to the lonely and claustrophobic feel of Rapture (itself brilliant for different reasons).

Because it was so good, I feel it should all be judged to a very high standard, and there were a couple of things that fell short. Borderline nonsense really, but not too bad for a game. Too harsh? :oops:

I think they wiffed with the story. What potential they had to do something interesting with the narrative tools they were putting in place, then didn't really do anything with it.

Also, after that fantastic opening, it felt jarring that I threw a ball at someone and then became public enemy number one, and had to start murdering the police of a city I just turned up in. I tried running through the first few sections because I had no motivation to fight these people?!

Definitely some jaw dropping moments though. My first proper sky rail fight was just amazing! Also, as someone mentioned in the other thread, turning around in the warden's office!

Lots to discuss for this game.

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magicjoef
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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To clarify, thematically strong and very interesting, but in terms of executing the story, it felt a bit rushed towards the end.

I'm considering a second play on easy to mull it over.

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yeah in my first encouters I also just ran away for the most time at kept trying to use stealth in everytime to avoid conflict(which never worked no matter how many times i tried) I think a second play is almost mandatory,what's been bothering me like you said was the execution and In my opinion the use of choices.

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Cass
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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I feel like the hype was such that there can't help but be a small backlash for this game. No game this ambitious is ever going to get it completely right - hell, the original Bioshock sure as hell wasn't perfect.

I think I forgive this game's missteps because so often when it does go slightly awry, you feel as though it's because they overreached. The story conclusion is convoluted, and reasonably easy to see coming if you're at all familiar with the tropes of alternate universes. Comstock as a villain has moments of greatness ("And if you won't listen to me, perhaps you will listen to your MOTHER!") but overall his presence in the story feels a little detached, especially since he seems to share villain status with pretty much every speaking character who's not Booker or Elizabeth. Columbia feels so enthralling as a world that its ultimate linearity comes as a small disappointment. What could have been an amazing world to explore begins to feel more like a theme park ride after a while, complete with rollercoasters on every level. Sidequests are simplistic to a fault and often involve minor amounts of backtracking.

But it's so easy to forgive because the rest of the game is executed so flawlessly. I had so much fun with basically every other aspect that I feel slightly bad acknowledging this game's flaws. The sound design in particular just blew me away. Been listening to barbershop God Only Knows on repeat for a little while now.

So yeah, basically my complaints all boil down to "you did this one thing really really well but it could have been just a little bit better" and I need more games I can say that about. I just wish I didn't have to send it back to Lovefilm (or move out of my house) so I could play it again.

EDIT: I was a little disappointed in the lack of stealth as an option, but really it wasn't a huge part of Bioshock 1 either. I've never been a massive fan of the "slaughter all the enemies in this area to progress to the next" school of level design, but it was fine. It never really felt as though I had an option to sneak by all these enemies, especially with Elizabeth in tow.

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Maybe i can boil down what I think I want out of the game in one sentence "I want the coin to fall on tails instead of heads",all they've done was well made and thoughtfull(plotholes aside maybe) so I cant say the ending is bad with a straight face,I just dont like it and I cant tell specifically why .

Also one of my favorite moments was when I approached a guitar just to see if I could interact with like in metro but then booker just starts playing it and Elizabeth singing,it was a little out of the blue but those were the moments that made me love the game and then in the credits when I was thinking and overthinking that ending ,in it comes the very recording session of that scene that was a very good note to leave the game on :)

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Sorry MagicJoe I only noticed as I just replayed the section, The police kick off because they notice the 'AD' branded on your hand. As you walk into the area that raffle is held there is a sign saying that the false shepherd bears this brand. I originally thought they had attacked as I wasn't a racist.

God Todinho couldn't agree more with exploring the slums and ending up having Elizabeth singing in the basement of the bar, just an unexpected and gorgeous moment. There is an amazing story between Elizabeth and songbird, a stunning and tragic relationship that is just not fully expanded upon. I get what your saying about the ending the resolution was one thing but I feel like it was undone mainly because Elizabeth was so calm. Not saying I wanted it to fall into melodrama but Elizabeth has just been told that the man she thought would save her also abandoned her to the life she hated. It felt like there should have a reaction, like Booker should have to explain himself but it remains relatively vague.

The whole thing feels like a movie or trilogy of them and should they actually turn this into a movie Phillip Seymour Hoffman should play Comstock.

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Cass
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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I would have liked something more explicit about Songbird. There's not much story there - he's some guy Fink built into a bird suit to protect Elizabeth. They could have done so much. Hell, if everyone else is Booker DeWitt, how about making him another Booker from yet another dimension? I'm not sure how good an idea that would have been, but it would have been more interesting than building up this abusive relationship dynamic and then not doing anything with it.

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yeah when the songbird finally meets his end there's a little sister crying over her bid daddy in another window the problem i have there is that I never really felt that relationship between the 2,if I recall correctly the songbird only appears 4 times in the whole game,they could have sections where you just had to run away from him and them develop their relationship it would break the shooting and add a bit more variety I think...like in the gameplay demo they showed and that never appears in the game.

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Purely based upon Elizabeth's reactions and dialogue there is clearly a story and a relationship between her and songbird that contains a great deal of complexity but the lack of expansion upon it leaves songbird seeming hollow. I think it feels like a big daddy/little sister relationship but without the explanation and story that would develop it, I would like to hope that there will be Minerva's Denesque DLC that provides the things that the main game lacks in this regard.

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magicjoef
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Imo wrote:Sorry MagicJoe I only noticed as I just replayed the section, The police kick off because they notice the 'AD' branded on your hand. As you walk into the area that raffle is held there is a sign saying that the false shepherd bears this brand. I originally thought they had attacked as I wasn't a racist.
Ah, I see. That is what I thought too. The brand makes more sense. I had watched the False Shepard booth thing just before that too, maybe I missed it!

I like what I have read about the story, I think it just struggled to convey everything. I was a little surprised it was trying to do so much in about 12 hours. I think it made for a nice tight design, but it felt like the story was heavily weighted to the last five minutes after the game finished.

As I mentioned, I am holding it up to intense scrutiny because it is so good and ambitious!

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yeah like I said I completely missed the point first time through even though Booker stops in front of said sign.

I know what you mean about it seeming weighted towards the end, my biggest feeling throughout I was being purposefully drip fed in order to increase impact for the final moments like a lot of movies which are completely held by their final twist. The problem being that most films of that sort are poor without said twist whereas Infinite is strong enough to carry itself so in hindsight I wonder if the game is actually better than it thinks it is, if you know what I mean.

Your right it is surprising that there is so much crammed into 12 hours or so perhaps if this was part 1 of 2 it could be allowed more space to breathe.

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Cass
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yeah, I could easily have spent another 12 hours in Columbia. It seems a shame to create such a rich world and then literally write it out of history at the end of the game. They could throw any kind of DLC at me at this point and I'd eat it up :)

Question regarding tears: So when Elizabeth is opening tears in Fink Manufacturing to find Chen Lin, do you completely leave behind the world you started in? She opens a tear to a world in which Chen Lin lived, but... do you ever get back to the original world, or do you just hop from world to world? You seem to end up in a world where the Vox Populi have the guns you need, but is that the world you started in? Or does it not matter? That part just made my head hurt.

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Yeah this is the point the story starts to fail a little for me,it's never explanied and it's never clear and all of this ties to the ending as well,I mean there were great consequences for Brooker entering another universe the first time but it doesnt in any other,I would much prefered if there was only two interconnected universes like in Fringe,maybe it would undermine what they were trying to say but it would make the story better i think.

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Imo
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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I am certainly no authority on Multiple world theory but my understanding is that when you go through the tear at the point you mention Elizabeth and Booker arrive in a completely different world/separate, parallel interpretation of the same one. The world is affected differently by the actions already taken as seen Booker lead/inspired the vox populi in this plane then died a martyr - Hence Daisies surprise when seeing you. I think the point is 'different choices would have lead to these consequences' so essentially its a different version of the same world - define it as you will. All the tears are the same, when she provides health, cover etc she is pulling them through tears from other worlds. All the lighthouses at the end are doors to these infinitely worlds.

Although regarding the tears. The first you witness her open is pumping Tears for Fears and later we hear girls just wanna have fun (Im sure there are a lot more) but I really wished that this had been more of a story or character point. Say for instance Elizabeth while stuck in the tower opens tears to the 80's on a regular basis and develops a love for the music she hums or sing songs to herself when she's scared or lonely. When she is found again shes a broken women in her chamber somberly whispering flock of Seagulls 'I ran' to herself. She is weird in comparison to the population of Columbia already and a trait such as this highlights how removed from the world she is. how trapped she is and how she simply does not belong there. Does she never find it strange that what she hears from the tears is so far removed from the radio/gramophone she has available in her world? What if she was enamored by the prophetic sermons of the Smiths? or quoted Marvin Gaye. I am sure that sounds ludicrous but I am a big fan of odd juxtapositions of setting and soundtrack like Django Unchained and Samurai Champloo, I feel it adds a character and uniqueness plus it is also a nice nod at players - as they make with 'everybody wants to rule the world' its intriguing at that point.

The menu has a season pass button but there is no multi player so I think we can safely assume they are planning or already have ready a fuck ton of single player dlc - Which leads me to wonder what they are going to come up with, cant wait.

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Todinho
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Re: Bioshock Infinite - Only after Completion

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Just got to the part where you go into the first alternate universe,why is it that the soldiers are the ones that get affected and not Brooker or Elizabeth, why are the people of this universe getting affected if Brooker and Elizabeth are the intruders here?

Also in various parts of the game it's told that Fink's brother copies other musicians by the tears,and I paid attention this time and the music playing in the beach is basically 1912's version of girls just wanna have fun that's was pretty cool to her

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