Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

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JaySevenZero
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Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by JaySevenZero » April 5th, 2015, 10:10 am

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"Show that you've the strength to break the yoke that binds you."

Guests CJ Black (Twin Humanities) and Sean Bell (Midnight Resistance) join Leon and Jay in our entirely unbalanced Dragon’s Dogma issue. That’s right, you’ll not find much negativity about Capcom’s 2012 action RPG here (although, as always we dissect the game and talk about those aspects we feel weren’t as strong as others). This show is something a love-in (right through to our listener correspondence) and with something like 750 hours of play between us we make no apology for that. If you want to hear what videogaming passion sounds like, you’ve come to the right podcast.

Music used in this issue:

Track 1: Main Title by Tadayoshi Makino, Inon Zur, Rei Kondoh, Chamy Ishi
Track 2: Into Free by B’z

Cane and Rinse 170 was edited by Jay Taylor.

You can subscribe using iTUNES or use our RSS FEED, or you can just simply DOWNLOAD IT HERE instead.

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Scrustle
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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by Scrustle » April 5th, 2015, 3:36 pm

Great episode. I must admit that most of those story details were lost on me playing the game. I had no idea it was that in-depth. The game doesn't make any of that clear at all. Turns out there's quite a lot of interesting, and confusing, stuff going on in there. Maybe my lack of understanding had something to do with the voice acting, or rather the script. That comment was made about how it was poorly translated, but I think it's very deliberately like that. I like it too. It's just another thing adding personality to the game, although it does make it kind of dense.

On Dragon's Dogma Online, that thing just fills me with despair. On the one hand, I'll probably never be able to play it, but at the same time, it seems like Capcom are doing horrible things with it. Yet it simultaneously looks really fun. I've seen trailers that show off the combat, and it looks even better than the original game. More varied monsters, new skills and equipment, and full-on co-op instead of just Pawns. Although I'm not sure if I would actually prefer that, but that's beside the point. The thing is they have what looks so interesting and enticing, but are using what will be almost certainly a horrific business model. So it's like Capcom decided to create exactly the kind of sequel Dragon's Dogma should have had, yet are also trying as hard as they can to ruin that. It riled me up so much I even completely went off the idea of even thinking about of playing DD until this podcast rolled around. I'm back to loving it now, but before all I could think about was how much DD Online seemed like a middle finger to me as someone who loved the first game so much.

The future of the series is pretty uncertain though, and that's pretty worrying. With DD Online not being made by the same studio as the original, that leaves a question mark over what they are actually doing. They could be working on DMC5. I would love that to be the case, but what if that means that we won't ever truly get a DD2? Plus, this is Capcom. Whatever happens, they will probably choose the worst option, because that's what they seem to do with series' with a strong fanbase.

Also, "B'z" is pronounced "bees". The song in the game is actually an altered version from the original. The original version is in Japanese, and sounds a little different, most notably the intro. Here's what it sounds like.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by ratsoalbion » April 5th, 2015, 5:37 pm

Thanks Scrustle, and cheers for the info too.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by Flabyo » April 6th, 2015, 7:21 am

On the romancing...
Spoiler: show
I just assumed everyone ended up with the Duchess at the end... had no idea it was more complex than that...

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by joetbd » April 6th, 2015, 9:24 am

its my impression, that the game is more popular in the UK, than the US (did anyone else get that sense). Almost every british podcast and youtube channel, that I am aware of, liked it quite a bit. While, for most of the US, this seemed like "just another game" that people played for a couple of days, and forgot about. It was not hated, merely met with indifference.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by JaySevenZero » April 6th, 2015, 9:59 am

After we finished the initial recording for this show we proceeded to carry on talking about the game which we decided to put out via this video.


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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by ratsoalbion » April 6th, 2015, 10:12 am

You may be on to something joe, although worth noting that one American - our Sean - loved the game and was due to be on the podcast until shortly before recording.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by joetbd » April 6th, 2015, 11:11 pm

This game drew a lot of comparisons to the souls games. But, I think thats a bit off base. I could be wrong, because I only played about an hour of dark souls (I did not get on with it). Saying they are the same, is like saying baldurs gate is a poor mans diablo.

Gamers have the annoying habit of referring to almost every game as a clone of something else. Its is a handy thing to do, a way to briefly communicate what a new game is like to someone that is completely unfamiliar with it. Doom 3 is like Far Cry. But, at the same time, they are utterly different games. And while that is a handy starting point, people need to stop thinking of all games as clones of something popular.

Far too frequently, people start with that A is similar to B, and they take that a step further. And decide which game is King of that group/genre, and relegate all similar games to the "pretender" or "want-a-be" pile. And that is one of the shames of the gaming world.

Does anyone remember "grand theft shark". The game was actually called Jaws, but it was a popular meme, to call it GTS. Possibly the worst case of labeling a game as a clone, in the history of gaming. There were so many reasons to dislike this game, being too similiar to Grand Theft Auto was not one of them. That game came out, at a time when any game took place on an open map was labeled as a GTA clone. Lumping games together like this seems problematic. Especially since we are not calling it a genre (like first person shooter) it is merely one game is King, and all of the others are pretenders. I dont think Dragons Dogma was an attempt to make a Demons Souls clone.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by JaySevenZero » April 7th, 2015, 7:19 am

I don't think that the comparisons are that off-base. I genuinely believe that there were aspects of the Souls games that were to have an influence during Dogma's development, such as the inventory weight management. As I say on the podcast I found that I got a definite Dark Souls vibe more from the Bitterblack expansion than the main game but that's not to say that I thought it was a clone or rip-off, but more in it's oppressive atmosphere and the trepidation I would feel when entering a new area in not knowing what was laying in wait for my character.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by Flabyo » April 7th, 2015, 7:33 am

In my comment I said that I got why people made the comparison between it and Souls but I certainly wouldn't call it a clone. It takes some things from the Soul's series, but it takes just as much from Skyrim and Monster Hunter too.

Remember that both it and Dark Souls were out around the same time, and in screenshots and game play videos theres no denying there's more than a superficial similarity. Likewise a lot of people found the difficulty in Dragon's Dogma off putting, mostly those who went through the cave near the start to what turns out is a very high level area, or those who didn't catch on that you really don't want to be out at night.

I don't think it's possible to discuss any game in a vacuum though. For example, yes it can be lazy to say of Fallout 3 that it's just "the Elder Scrolls with Guns". But likewise you can't seriously talk about Fallout 3 without at least mentioning the many things it takes from Bethesda's other main series. This idea that every game must be examined only on it's own merits, that we must try to analyse any cultural artefact without recourse to the environment in which it exists, is an impossible goal. Art affects life, life affects art. And no game exists that has no influences at all.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by Scrustle » April 7th, 2015, 11:21 am

I think that comparing Dogma to Dark Souls is a little misleading, although perhaps not intentionally. There are obvious similarities, but I think most of them are surface level, with it being a Western inspired action RPG made by a Japanese studio that's a little rough around the edges. But when you say something is like a Souls game, that sets up a pretty specific expectation in terms of combat, pacing, and difficulty. DD doesn't really have that. I can see how the case would be different with Bitterblack, and that some of the more subtle things about the game do take influence, but as an overall experience, it's quite different.

But as joetbd says, gamers have that habit of always comparing things. Drawing a comparison with any two similar games risks all sorts of expectations being brought in to the mix. People could say DD is too similar to Souls and has no personality of its own, or its a lame rip-off that isn't close enough and gets the whole thing wrong. But both of those do a big disservice to the game. It's something I've actually been thinking about quite a lot recently in general. How people seem to think that any game that's similar to another automatically makes it a bad game, but that's simply not the case. A game can still be really fun if it's similar to another. People already accept that with sequels to already existing games. Just because someone else wants to do that too that doesn't make the result any worse.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by arry_g » April 7th, 2015, 11:29 am

Interesting that the conversation keeps going. I think there might be some merit to doing an appendix of sorts to the original podcast where some of the community debate and discussion as well as further theories are discussed. If not in podcast form then perhaps using one of the other mediums.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by ratsoalbion » April 7th, 2015, 11:39 am

Actually I always hoped that our podcasts would inspire more conversations than they would end, so to speak. On each show we present our opinions as individuals but we never set out to give some sort of 'definitive' treatise on a game.

I always look forward to reading further discussion in these very threads (or the game's own thread in the main forum folder), but it doesn't happen all the time (which is quite understandable of course - everyone is very busy with both other games and real life).

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by Sean » April 7th, 2015, 11:51 am

WRT to the Dark Souls comparisons, this was one of the biggest reasons why it took me so long to get into the game. I had just come off of hundreds of hours of both Demon's and Dark, and, when I popped on the Dragon's Dogma demo, I was immediately reminded of the Souls games, but, just not as good. It immediately turned me off, and, I didn't really give the game a chance for a long time (not until Dark Arisen).

Now, after countless hours in Dragon's Dogma, I know that the games are hugely different, but, I think that first impressions of it being a bit of a clone are fair. It's only when I got into a few hours into it, that I was able to appreciate everything that Dragon's Dogma does that's so different from the Souls games.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by RoboticMonk3y » April 7th, 2015, 2:03 pm

Really enjoyed the podcast this week, and loved the extra youtube stuff.

I really loved Dragon's dogma, and it was actually Sean B that told me to keep going when I got stuck in the everfall.

Aside from them being 3rd person dungeon crawlers, I don't really connect this game with Dark souls. I like that in Dragon's dogma if you were stuck, you could buff up a class and learn a skill, which would help you through, I'v started to try and play dark souls and I've never found that same impression of there being multiple ways to overcome your problem, you just have to learn the very specific way to combat that particular enemy. I find the souls approach to the game very constricting and didn't enjoy it, with Dragon's Dogma, if I got stuck I'd go off for a wander elsewhere and level myself or my pawn up.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by RoboticMonk3y » April 7th, 2015, 2:05 pm

oh, also, thank you kindly for the outro! :)
what surprises me most about that track, is that the translation of the original track is entirely different to the english language track.
I cant' warp my head around speaking another language, let alone re-writing song lyrics and convey some sense of meaning with them.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by joetbd » April 8th, 2015, 11:48 am

Im not a Souls expert. But, from what people say, the core of the game is about exacting combat maneuvers and timing. You are utterly punished for doing things wrong or sloppily. It is impossible to button mash.

On the other hand, I button-mashed my way through Dragons Dogma, from beginning to end. It wasn't until I had beaten the game, and was working into the depths of Bitter Black Isle (the second time) that I started using some strategy.
80% of what I do/did in Dragons Dogma is mash one or two buttons.

JaySevenZero- "influence during Dogma's development, such as the inventory weight management"

I may be mishearing what you are saying. But Weight management has been around forever in RPGs. Not every action RPG, but many (and for a long time). Hasnt the Elder Scrolls games used weight, at least as far back as Morrowind? Even having extra weight slow you down has been around for a while.

PS - the demo and retail version of Dragons dogma use different intro songs. There was no j-pop, in the menu music for the demo. You could let the menu music play and play, and it never erupted into pop music... it was so nice.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by RoboticMonk3y » April 8th, 2015, 12:27 pm

I wonder if the demo had the same menu music that was used in Dark arisen?

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by JaySevenZero » April 9th, 2015, 5:52 am

joetbd wrote:Im not a Souls expert. But, from what people say, the core of the game is about exacting combat maneuvers and timing. You are utterly punished for doing things wrong or sloppily. It is impossible to button mash...80% of what I do/did in Dragons Dogma is mash one or two buttons.
This is not the case, I don't favour having to learn combos or attacks, preferring to keep combat simple and this is exactly how I played both Demon Souls and Dogma
joetbd wrote:I may be mishearing what you are saying. But Weight management has been around forever in RPGs. Not every action RPG, but many (and for a long time). Hasnt the Elder Scrolls games used weight, at least as far back as Morrowind? Even having extra weight slow you down has been around for a while.
Of course it has, but that system - along with the stamina bar - was pretty much utilised in the same way for both games. The reason I personally would cite Demon's as having influenced, was simply because whilst playing both games I found that the combat pretty much the same in both titles (albeit much tighter in Demon's), where I would have to constantly watch my stamina bar whilst blocking during combat with the more powerful enemies. I have no basis for this comparison other than what I thought and felt whilst playing both games to completion.

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Re: Dragon's Dogma - Cane and Rinse 170

Post by joetbd » April 12th, 2015, 6:54 am

JaySevenZero wrote: This is not the case, I don't favour having to learn combos or attacks, preferring to keep combat simple and this is exactly how I played both Demon Souls and Dogma
I was leaning largely on what I had heard about Dark Souls. My actually experience with the souls franchise comes from playing one game, briefly. And I dont even remember if it was DS 1 or 2. I played for a while, got stuck, couldnt figure out where I was supposed to go, and gave up.

Of course Dragons Dogma has several influences. All games do. And Dragons Dogma probably has more influences than the average game. I got a sense, following developer diaries before its release, that this was an attempt to combine a lot of other fun games types, into a single package. It almost feels like a Peter Molyneux game, but in reverse. (Rather than over promising, and under delivering. They sold the game as a simple action RPG, but delivered so much more).

The romance theme, being "the chosen one", simple two-button combat; there were several Fable similarities. In 2003, Molyneux was sharing his vision of a do-everything RPG, and people seemed really excited by it. I feel like Dogma is several steps closer to delivering on that vision. That was the comparison I had in my head, as I played DD. I felt like it was a fable type game, except that it actually delivered on its promises. This is my favorite niche genre. Action RPGs, that take place in a world, that I can create change in. Elder Scrolls, Fable, even portable games like Rune Factory. Its a hybrid genre that combines a lite world simulator and an action RPG.

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