The Last of Us Part II

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Jon Cheetham
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

If this was a PS1 era game maybe it would have come with "Abby" and "Ellie" discs. That would have been fun.
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Quiet Paul »

Out of curiosity I decided to see how many PS1 discs would be needed to play TLOU2 in its original file size on the PS1.

80GB divided into CD-ROMs at 660mb each, you’d need about 122 (121.212121) discs to play the game - I’m not even sure if that working is right but if it is, that’d make for a hell of a cd case!
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

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DomsBeard wrote: March 17th, 2021, 12:38 pm For me anyway Alex the fact it seemed early on that was what the whole point of the second half was made me not buy into Abby at all. I think they should've been even bolder and made you play as Abby first and build up who she is up to her killing Joel (which you would've only found out about late on) then a swap over.
That would have been a very brave decision, and one that I think would have worked really well from a narrative and 'player experience' point of view. God, can you imagine the outcry if they'd actually done that! :lol:
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Marlew »

Jon Cheetham wrote: March 17th, 2021, 5:07 pm If this was a PS1 era game maybe it would have come with "Abby" and "Ellie" discs. That would have been fun.
This is a brilliant idea, and I'm intrigued by DomsBeard's suggestion of flipping the order. The 'reveal' wouldn't have had the same impact, obviously, and I think the players who see Joel as a kind of heroic figure would have gone even more apeshit. 'Press Square to golf his head into two dimensions.' On the other hand, it actually does flip the order because by the time you've (potentially) built up some empathy with Abby, you do pick Ellie back up and (potentially) struggle with her actions. So, you actually play Ellie twice with very different motivations as both player and character (potentially).
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Alex79 »

Quiet Paul wrote: March 17th, 2021, 7:08 pm Out of curiosity I decided to see how many PS1 discs would be needed to play TLOU2 in its original file size on the PS1.

80GB divided into CD-ROMs at 660mb each, you’d need about 122 (121.212121) discs to play the game - I’m not even sure if that working is right but if it is, that’d make for a hell of a cd case!
But how many floppies...? :lol:
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

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Alex79uk wrote: March 17th, 2021, 10:29 pm
Quiet Paul wrote: March 17th, 2021, 7:08 pm Out of curiosity I decided to see how many PS1 discs would be needed to play TLOU2 in its original file size on the PS1.

80GB divided into CD-ROMs at 660mb each, you’d need about 122 (121.212121) discs to play the game - I’m not even sure if that working is right but if it is, that’d make for a hell of a cd case!
But how many floppies...? :lol:
I had several floppies during this game. ;)

Well, thanks for that, I got curious again and here are my results:

The closest conversion I can find is that 711 standard 3.5 inch floppy disks (1.44MB) is a hair off a GB so times 711 by 80 is 56,880 floppy disks!

In perspective, if stacked, TLOU2 Floppy Disk Edition would reach 186 feet which is about 13 double decker buses, just over half the height of the Statue of Liberty or just over half the length of a football (soccer) pitch.

Completely useless facts 8-)
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Jon Cheetham
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Jon Cheetham »

Quiet Paul wrote: March 17th, 2021, 7:08 pm 80GB divided into CD-ROMs at 660mb each, you’d need about 122 (121.212121) discs to play the game - I’m not even sure if that working is right but if it is, that’d make for a hell of a cd case!
:lol: that is amazing, about 10x the size of my PS1 library back in the day tbh!
Marlew wrote: March 17th, 2021, 8:32 pm This is a brilliant idea, and I'm intrigued by DomsBeard's suggestion of flipping the order. The 'reveal' wouldn't have had the same impact, obviously, and I think the players who see Joel as a kind of heroic figure would have gone even more apeshit. 'Press Square to golf his head into two dimensions.' On the other hand, it actually does flip the order because by the time you've (potentially) built up some empathy with Abby, you do pick Ellie back up and (potentially) struggle with her actions. So, you actually play Ellie twice with very different motivations as both player and character (potentially).
A remixed chapter order would be cool. Maybe as a feature for the next-gen version...
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Eterno »

I love all these facts I didn't even know I needed to know but I'm so glad I do 🤣 reminds me of my 14 floppy disks or so of Tomb Raider.

Anyway, as Miririn said, I was indeed referring to these scenes where they make you “play” their set scenes (you have no control as to how the scene will unfold) such as the doctor killing scene at the end of TLoU, and Nora’s torturing in the sequel.
Honestly, I must have waited at least 5 minutes when the game demanded I press the button each time to keep torturing her, thinking if you didn’t do anything a different scene would unfold but no, just have to do exactly what ND decided. If that’s the case make it a cutscene, just like Joel death.
My issue is that the game is filled with such player manipulations, such as the dog one later on and others. It’s simply so obvious and in your face that it makes me see what the developer is trying to do, more than actually enjoy the story. It breaks my immersion.

But since Alex asked about the Abby switch, I’ll comment on that. I went into this sequel entirely spoiler free, I also stayed away from trailers, so I had no idea what to expect. I loved the first game more than enough to buy it blind and I actually thought we’d play both Ellie and Joel. Joel death was a shock, it felt so sudden, but I was all in, thinking it would lead to an interesting story. Unfortunately, I find this revenge story extremely blend and uninspired. Then came the issue of Ellie making absolutely no sense to me, more and more and more. I just could not understand her behavior and decisions. By the time the switch happened, I pretty much highly disliked Ellie so it was almost a relief to play as Abby, but once again, the lack of subtlety made it so very obvious what emotions they were trying to get out of me. I did feel empathy for Abby, truth be told, I understand Abby’s choices and motivations way more than Ellie’s. She does make sense, though it derails a little bit by the end as someone commented previously.

Why do we need to play all this though? Yes, all villains have a background and some reason to do what they do. We don’t need to spend 15h with them to understand that. I don’t find it revolutionary to be honest and it felt more like something they wanted to do for shock value, instead of a plot device at the service of a story they had to tell. I did want to play Ellie and Joel’s journey, not Abby’s, and the ending did not justify for one second the 15h I spent with her.

My issue probably lies here, I enjoyed the dynamic between Ellie and Joel, that’s what made the first game so powerful and interesting to me. The second is simply not about that. I’m fine though to have a story I don’t like, it can’t always hit right, but I’m not happy with the gameplay choices and delivery of the story. I hope ND gets more subtle in the future.
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Alex79 »

Quiet Paul wrote: March 18th, 2021, 12:05 am
Alex79uk wrote: March 17th, 2021, 10:29 pm
Quiet Paul wrote: March 17th, 2021, 7:08 pm Out of curiosity I decided to see how many PS1 discs would be needed to play TLOU2 in its original file size on the PS1.

80GB divided into CD-ROMs at 660mb each, you’d need about 122 (121.212121) discs to play the game - I’m not even sure if that working is right but if it is, that’d make for a hell of a cd case!
But how many floppies...? :lol:
I had several floppies during this game. ;)

Well, thanks for that, I got curious again and here are my results:

The closest conversion I can find is that 711 standard 3.5 inch floppy disks (1.44MB) is a hair off a GB so times 711 by 80 is 56,880 floppy disks!

In perspective, if stacked, TLOU2 Floppy Disk Edition would reach 186 feet which is about 13 double decker buses, just over half the height of the Statue of Liberty or just over half the length of a football (soccer) pitch.

Completely useless facts 8-)
This is the kind of content I'm after :lol: Excellent job!
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by ratsoalbion »

Perhaps we should incorporate Quiet Paul's Utterly Useless Facts Corner into the podcast from now on...
:D
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

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Thanks Alex! Any more inquiries, you know where to throw them.
ratsoalbion wrote: March 18th, 2021, 12:36 pm Perhaps we should incorporate Quiet Paul's Utterly Useless Facts Corner into the podcast from now on...
:D
Any chance of having Left Bank Two in the background? :lol:
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Tbone254 »

I’m probably in the minority here, but I absolutely despised the first game in the series. Save for the ending, I did not enjoy a single moment of The Last of Us, and had it not been for my girlfriend that wanted to see the story, I would have turned it off after a few hours. I know a lot of people loved the game and praise it for its story, but it is something I could never connect with. I just found the whole premise cliche. It was, once again, taking the video game road with story. We have to complete our objective to save the world. But there’s a twist! Your character is going to turn selfish and prevent the good guys from saving the world. Somehow, stopping a militant group of questionable ethics from convincing a 14 year old girl from sacrificing herself under the guise of the greater good, is considered morally questionable. I thought we had all realized that throwing people into volcanos to bring rain was wrong. I know, it’s not quite the same thing, but I think the argument still stands. We shouldn’t sacrifice the minority to save the majority.

So I had no intention on picking up the second game. I and would not have, had it not been for a coworker of mine. He raved about how good the game was an insisted I play it. I had just completed Ghost of Tsushima, so we traded games. My experience with the second game was so much better than the first. Significantly so. I really enjoyed the more personal tone of the story. This wasn’t a tale of a treacherous trip to help save humanity. It was revenge. Just pure revenge. Which I think works better in supporting the gameplay. It’s hard to take any statement on humanity serious after my character has massacred entire towns of people. But when revenge is involved, it makes more sense. The seconds story is not without its faults though. I think the final act was unnecessary, and the life sparing revelation at the end just doesn’t feel justified. It’s not Abby’s survival that bothered me, it’s that she was spared by someone that has slaughtered hundreds of people without a second thought, in pursuit of her. Ellies realization on the futility of revenge at the peak moment of completing her objective doesn't feel natural. Personally, I think the story would have been better served if Ellie just failed at her objective and ended with her returning to her home, broken and unfullfilled. A pathetic end to a meaningless objective.

I think there were some very good improvements to the gameplay, with some great additions to some of the tools available. Executing a perfectly laid out plan of traps and ambushes, after studying enemy movements and behaviors, never felt so satisfying. And catching an enemy with a well placed mine after getting their attention never fails to make me howl with glee.

Something that I wanted to touch on that I don’t see a lot of praise for is the character design. Particularly Abby. I absolutely LOVE Abby’s design. Something that all entertainment media, not just video games, are guilty of is the poor design of functionally capable women. It frustrates me so much to see women in TV shows, movies, and video games be portrayed as these hard as nails, no non-sense women, capable of pummeling everyone they see. All while maintaining their petite feminine frame, with hips and chest to spare, and a face full of makeup. It is a breath of fresh air to see a woman presented in manner fitting her role. With her massive arms, broad shoulders, and muscular chest, Abby absolutely looks like she could hold her own in a fist fight.

So this game was a surprise hit for me, and while it is not perfect, I think it is far superior to it predecessor, and sorry this is kind of long. I actually had a lot I wanted to say about this game, but I did my best to shortnen it up.
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Marlew »

To sidestep the narrative and character discussion...

From a purely audiovisual perspective, TLOU2 is one of the most impressive and affecting games I've played. The lighting was so natural that I would regularly stop and just rotate the camera in amazement. The encounter in the subway with the phosphorescent glows, blazing reds and deep shadows was like a scene from Suspiria, pure atmospheric dread, but the daylight is what has stayed with me most. I could almost feel the clammy chill of the overcast shade and the diffuse warmth of the sunshine. While the Naughty Dog aesthetic doesn't quite aim for photorealism, the world they created here is remarkably tangible.

That physicality also extends to the magnificent sound design, with two brief examples standing out. The first was during a rainy section where I dipped into a storage container to pick up some ammo. The wide open splish splash of heavy droplets suddenly became a thundering claustrophobic echo as the showers pounded the metal roof. The effect itself is nothing new but the execution and lifelike sense of space stopped me in my tracks. I had to text my brothers to tell them to make sure they were playing with headphones. It's only a tiny moment, but one which exemplifies the work and expertise which went into this game.

The second example was even more impactful, but I'm not sure if I really wanted to hear it. As an animal lover, I simply tried to avoid the dogs but it soon became almost impossible. Holding a wrench and creeping around the second floor of a house, I was suddenly ambushed by a barking Alsatian and I acted upon instinct. THUNK. The sound of the heavy weapon striking the animal made me feel absolutely sick. It wasn't like a punch, it was a real dull, hollow, crushing body blow. Whoever had to come up with that in the studio, I feel sorry for them. I only heard it once and it left a mark on me. After that, it was quick, clean, quiet headshots all the way!
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

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Tbone254 wrote: March 25th, 2021, 7:15 am
Something that I wanted to touch on that I don’t see a lot of praise for is the character design. Particularly Abby. I absolutely LOVE Abby’s design. Something that all entertainment media, not just video games, are guilty of is the poor design of functionally capable women. It frustrates me so much to see women in TV shows, movies, and video games be portrayed as these hard as nails, no non-sense women, capable of pummeling everyone they see. All while maintaining their petite feminine frame, with hips and chest to spare, and a face full of makeup. It is a breath of fresh air to see a woman presented in manner fitting her role. With her massive arms, broad shoulders, and muscular chest, Abby absolutely looks like she could hold her own in a fist fight.
Absolutely this.

To add this this, the game consistently has a variety of female body types, even among the petite characters. Dina and Ellie are both small and thin, but while Ellie is sharp and bony, Dina is pear-shaped with wider hips. Abby is stocky even when she's smaller in the flashbacks. And while all the women in the game look nice, they have realisitic, human facial features. Mel has bags under her eyes and moles on her face (...same with me, probably why I noticed :P :P ). Marlene has streaks of grey in her hair. Abby sometimes has a small double chin. Yara's hair is escaping from her neat braid. Etc etc. Both male and female characters have scars, lines on their faces, pores, cuts and bruises. They're allowed to look different from each other, show their ages. I can't think of any main character in the game who doesn't have an interesting appearance, despite everyone wearing drab clothes.

When I write it out like that it sounds insane and "who cares", but I think I noticed it because the realism of how all the characters look really helps the game feel real and the world feel lived in. I once read a long, creepy thread lamenting that Ellie is now "ugly". I remember thinking, she's not ugly (although it wouldn't matter if she was) - she's just pretty in the way an ACTUAL nineteen-year-old girl would be pretty. But that's so rare in a lot of media that to some people that reads as "ugly".

(That said I think Abby has one of the prettiest face models I've seen in a game - she's stunning. I always end up spending a long time in the photo mode because her face is so expressive and pretty. ...by saying this I may have hypocritically undone all my previous arguments, hahaha)
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Marlew »

A lot I'd never even considered there but it made me pause to think and I completely agree with you. ND are brilliant at creating physically varied but natural, credible characters. Only David in the TLOU games feels a little off (in every respect, imo - character, model and voice work).
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Miririn »

Marlew wrote: April 18th, 2021, 12:42 pm A lot I'd never even considered there but it made me pause to think and I completely agree with you. ND are brilliant at creating physically varied but natural, credible characters. Only David in the TLOU games feels a little off (in every respect, imo - character, model and voice work).
Ooh that's really interesting - I liked David as an antagonist a lot, I think maybe because he reminded me of a lot of the classic Stephen King baddies I enjoyed reading about as a teenager. What didn't work about him for you, if you don't mind me asking?

I thought about my original post and yours and would like to amend my opinion slightly - I think the huge Seraphites you occasionally have boss fights against are a bit too cartoonish looking compared to other human characters in the game. That said, I really like fighting them ("Are you wearing my backpack?!?!?!")
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Steve Arran »

The original Last of Us holds a special place in my heart as it is one of only two games to have ever made me cry (RDR2 being the second). I’d never had a game affect me in such a way before and it was this rather than the graphics or gameplay which kept me coming back, pretty much annually, over the seven-year period prior to the release of the sequel. Consequently, me expectations were high for the second game. I knew Naughty Dog would mechanically and graphically knock it out of the park- their Uncharted track record being stellar- but I did worry that the game would not have an emotional impact on me in the same way. If the writing failed, I knew it would run the risk of just being a repetition of the first game. Fortunately, I was not disappointed.

The first time I welled up was the introduction of Dina during the Jackson snowball fight. The tears came not from sadness but from such a release of tension. Within one three-minute scene Naughty Dog had show that their handling of their characters remained top drawer. I could see why Ellie loved this woman and instantly cared for her myself (in the same way that I became so emotionally invested in poor Sara from the first game) within less time than it takes to turn on my console. That is real skill. I did not know where the story would go, but I knew I was in safe hands.

I do not think that Shannon Woodward gets enough credit for her work on this game; the discourse being overwhelmed with different performance critiques and other issues (as is apparent even in the relatively bucolic Cane and Rinse Forum). But any team of creatives that can show you a couple falling in love convincingly (the Take on Me rendition was another tear jerker) are operating on a higher plane. People may not have liked the way the narrative unfurled – I was not one, enjoying the game to completion several times since launch- but for me Naughty Dog shows that they do some of the best characterisation in the business and whilst some may not like it, they do know their characters. As an actor myself (who has been involved in video games) I can only sympathise with the turmoil that the games cast must have went through post launch, and, without sounding belligerent, you can believe me when I say that in the seven years of development these actors have thought about these characters a lot more than you.

I didn’t think that the original game really needed a sequel, but after playing the second instalment I really do hope that Naughty Dog deliver us another chapter in order to cap off the experience.

(As a non sequitur, I would be interested to hear the opinions of those who played any Last Of Us games for the first time just prior to the launch of this one, as opposed to those who had a seven year history with the series, to see how their opinions differ).
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Miririn »

Steve Arran wrote: April 18th, 2021, 2:59 pm (As a non sequitur, I would be interested to hear the opinions of those who played any Last Of Us games for the first time just prior to the launch of this one, as opposed to those who had a seven year history with the series, to see how their opinions differ).
I played TLOU1 for the first time last summer and played TLOU2 right after, so that would be me. Pretty much a love at first sight reaction, I had previously only been a Nintendo gamer and I was still trying to work out what sort of PS games I liked. And when I played these two games one after another, I thought: "That. That's the kind of game I like". And I've been obsessed with them and annoying everyone about them ever since (so for the past however many months).

Although for me it was Abby and Owen that had me choking up rather than Ellie and Dina. I think because the first person I ever fell in love with (and had my heart broken by) was a total Owen in terms of his personality. And while I'm not an Abby, I'm the type of person who finds it almost impossible to talk about romantic feelings with anyone and I find it hard to be vulnerable in front of someone I like... just like Abby. So even though the specifics of their relationship were very different from my old unrequited feelints, the emotions at the core of their relationship struck too close to home for me, haha. Melodramatic early love!

I think how you feel about Dina is how I feel about Owen. I could probably write a terrible and earnet thirty page essay on why he's an underrated character who is unfairly disliked, and how in many ways he symbolises (and sometimes even straight out verbalises) some of the main themes of the game. I have no idea who played him but he did a great job.

Few other game companies do character as well as Naughty Dog.
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Marlew »

Miririn wrote: April 18th, 2021, 1:16 pm
Marlew wrote: April 18th, 2021, 12:42 pm A lot I'd never even considered there but it made me pause to think and I completely agree with you. ND are brilliant at creating physically varied but natural, credible characters. Only David in the TLOU games feels a little off (in every respect, imo - character, model and voice work).
Ooh that's really interesting - I liked David as an antagonist a lot, I think maybe because he reminded me of a lot of the classic Stephen King baddies I enjoyed reading about as a teenager. What didn't work about him for you, if you don't mind me asking?
I think it was the voice work more than anything else but I instantly thought 'wrong un/paedo'. A little bit too obviously creepy, same with the shifty demeanour. Of course, they played with my expectations a bit with the teaming up section but he seemed quite hokey/B-movie baddie alongside such brilliant nuanced characters and performances. I also thought the old-fashioned boss fight with him was a bit jarring, as well. It was very tense but trad gamey in a way that little else was, three hits and all.

I'd say the same about the Ellie encounter in TLOU2, to be honest. I loved the RE4 tribute area and that boss fight was immense, they pulled it off (i.e. I liked it) but I don't think the Ellie fight was nearly as successful. I thought it was subversive, of course, and I enjoyed it in a way, but it was more clever than engaging or satisfying for me. I'm not sure what the effect was other than to make me feel torn and to be feel Ellie's violence and anger from the other side. Maybe it was effective, then. I certainly didn't enjoy fighting and injuring her.
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Re: 476 - The Last of Us Part II

Post by Miririn »

That totally makes sense - thank you for explaining! I was still very new to that type of game when I first played it so that might be why I was more forgiving of the obvious boss fight-y vibe with David. Also I love the cutscenes that bookend it... and ditto the cutscenes that bookend the first Ellie-Abby fight. So even though from a gameplay perspective they're not parts of the games I particularly look forward to on each playthrough, I love all the dramatic stuff surrounding them.
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