DOOM Eternal

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JaySevenZero
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DOOM Eternal

Post by JaySevenZero »

Here's where you can contribute your thoughts and opinions for DOOM Eternal for potential inclusion in the forthcoming podcast.

A friendly reminder that where the feedback for the podcast is concerned, we love it - but keeping it brief is appreciated. We do want to include a breadth of opinions where appropriate, but no-one wants a discussion podcast that’s mostly reading out essays. Better to save yourself time and cut to the chase if you can.
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Truk_Kurt
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by Truk_Kurt »

I was a huge fan of Doom 2016, it was probably my second favourite game of last gen after Breath of the Wild and certainly my favourite FPS, so I was very much looking forward to Eternal. Upon release though opinions from critics and my Twittersphere seemed mixed, with some claiming it was very different to 2016 and not in a good way, so I decided to hold off till it was a little cheaper. Late last year though it came to Game Pass so I decided to play it over Christmas.

Thankfully I am one of the people that had a superb time with the game, I have read the criticisms of the combat regarding enemies having weak points, lower maximum ammo, more emphasis on resource management and all those things are true, but for me they weren't criticisms, they just added an extra dimension to the already glorious combat of Doom 2016. The combat demands so much of the player and I had to really concentrate through every encounter, I couldn't simply point and shoot like in other FPS games, but I loved that about the game.

However I would be critical of the platforming. I understand that it was a way to slow the pace down in between the chaotic fights which would leave your heart pounding, but they just weren't very good. I also felt that the pacing wasn't as tight as 2016, with the second half dragging for me, particularly the last level though I did enjoy the final couple of boss fights.

So whilst it didn't eclipse 2016 for me, I wouldn't consider it a disappointment.
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MattL
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by MattL »

In the lead up to Doom Eternal, I had reservations based on the previews and something seemed wrong in my gut. The art style seemed more cartoony. The weapons seemed less punchy. The movement lacked a certain speed. The focus on weak points seemed like an odd design choice. In addition, I was also sorely disappointed with id's previously outing of Wolfenstein: The New Colossus, after adoring The New Order and The Old Blood. That being said, I allowed my love of Doom 2016 and my faith in it's designers to guide me towards purchasing Doom Eternal full price on day one.

I wish I had listened to my initial gut feeling. Make no mistake; Doom Eternal is a well-made action game. The designers had a vision for it and went in for it whole hog. But to me, that vision is not and will never be Doom.

Level progression in Doom is not about platforming section to shooting arena to platforming section to shooting arena, rinse and repeat. They're about dumping you into a maze with locks and keys and you use your wits to fight through (and sometimes avoid) enemies.

Weapons in Doom are not about ammo management by way artificially low ammo counts. You use what you pick up from the levels and from enemy drops. When you run out of ammo, you switch weapons. You don't shoot each weapon for 4 seconds and then chainsaw the nearest enemy to refill everything.

Health in Doom is not about using multiple subsystems to refill health and armor. You use what you find in your environment and you make it work.

Enemies in Doom are not about finding the glowing weak point and shooting it with a specific weapon's specific alternate firing mechanic. You come across a group of enemies and you use what you have. Sometimes you have enough shotgun shells to to go buck wild with your super shotgun. Other times, you have to make due with a chain gun.

Multiplayer in Doom is not about asynchronous gameplay with powers and abilities. It's about pitting players on equal standing against one another.

As I stated above, the creators clearly had a vision for this game. I have no problem with that. As I've said many times when games journalists demand that Fromsoft's Souls series include difficulty options, not every game is for everyone and clearly Eternal is not for me. My frustration is Eternal's creators used the Doom name to utilize it's nostalgia, legacy, and pedigree, but they failed to follow it's design philosophies.
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Rich Uncle Skeleton
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by Rich Uncle Skeleton »

The Marauder in Doom Eternal almost made me quit the game. Not in it's first appearance, which was pretty forgiving, but when it continued to show up in subsequent encounters and insist that I abandon the bouncy, rhythmic combat, and instead play an entirely different game.

The Marauder is the kid on the playground adding new super-powers on a whim: they shrug off the crucible, BFG, and Unmaykr, and will only let you hit them if you find that Goldilocks distance between too far (because he'll shoot axe-beams and send his ammo-draining dog after you) and too close (because he'll shotgun you). Eventually, I beat my head against this wall enough that Marauders became manageable, but never interesting or fun to fight, which might be the only enemy in the game I could say that about...Even the hated Arch-vile had more to offer, which I don't say lightly!

I know there are some people who are somehow a fan of this guy because they think it added a "Dark Souls" element to Doom Eternal, but for me, that particular combination was orange juice and toothpaste...
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KissMammal
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by KissMammal »

I can totally understand where everyone is coming from with their criticisms of the game, but they are all things that didn’t really bother me. Perhaps because of the initial mixed reception the game received I lowered my expectations, but in practice I enjoyed the game every bit as much as (if not more so) than Doom 2016.

I take issue with the some of the complaints that each enemy needs to be dealt with by a certain weapon - I found there was enough flexibility and so many possible permutations of abilities, weapons and mods that it gave the player freedom to come up with their own tactics. The scarcity of ammo really didn't bother me at all after the first couple of hours, as the game clearly wants you to explore all the tricks at your disposal and not just spam shotgun the whole time.

I think the combat system is very clever in how it adds depth, complexity and variety while not sacrificing any of the visceral energy we as players expect from the series.

As someone who grew up with the nightmare first person platforming of Turok and the original Half Life, even that part didn’t bother me too much - the lack of fall damage combined with the double jump and boost all but allow the player to fly for short periods anyway.

While many obviously think differently, I think Doom Eternal manages to tread a very fine line between being creative and experimental but still retaining what makes Doom Doom. Ultimately, I feel that people would have complained just much had Eternal just been more of the same, and not strived to mix up the formula a little. To make a comparison from a different medium, I wouldn’t want Radiohead to keep making albums that sound exactly like The Bends over and over, as great as that album is.
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Magical_Isopod
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by Magical_Isopod »

Okay so before I dive into my commentary, I want to highlight something about the much-maligned Marauder... He's actually super easy to deal with, but the game does a really poor job of explaining how. Basically, he's designed to force you to learn hot-swap. If you wait til his tell, immediately hit him with the Super Shotgun, hot swap to the Ballista, fire... Repeat for 2 or 3 cycles, and he's dead. I almost have to wonder if it was intended to be a Demon's Souls style "community discussion" topic, because nothing in-game tells you or even hints at how effective this strategy is.

---

Anyway. I picked up Doom Eternal at launch, and it was my 2020 GOTY. I LOVED this game, and I normally hate difficult games that pressure you like this. This released right when the first lockdown started here in Ontario, and I was planning on saving money and holding off just in case. But luckily, I received $60 in Wal-Mart gift cards from a survey panel I'd participated in, so I pulled the trigger. I love this game on its own, but I really wanna highlight how timely this game was for me... I lost my job right at the start of April, a couple weeks into the lockdown, after months of abusive behaviour from my direct supervisor. A white-knuckle power fantasy like this? It got me through the hardest bits of coping with all that, and the fears of what a lockdown and pandemic meant.

I could champion how this game plays, but that'll be well addressed by the time my commentary comes 'round. But this world they've made, the incredible art direction, the really diverse levels they've got on display here, I absolutely love it. Nothing about Doom Eternal is "safe" - even during downtime, there's enough visual viscera to remind you that nothing here is okay. You can catch your breath, but you can't set up camp. The game does a wonderful job of marrying the high-pressure gameplay with visual elements that remind you, "Buddy, you gotta keep pushing, you gotta clean up this mess." And the music does a great job of moving the Doom Train along - when it's pulse-poundingly hype, it's also aggressive and threatening. When it's slower and contemplative, it's also grimy and dread-inducing.

If I were to highlight any particular faults, it's definitely some of the later bosses. While I appreciate that they're meant to difficult, I often found myself frustrated trying to decipher their arcane mechanics, usually having to consult a walkthrough or Discord chat on winning strategies. The Marauder is definitely the first to have to have this issue, but it's not the only one.

There's no perfect word in the English language to describe it, but I absolutely love when media, and especially games, can combine sound and moving visuals to be better than the sum of their parts. Games like Einhander and Nier Automata do this masterfully - they marry audio and video to deliver these overwhelming sensory experiences. Doom Eternal absolutely stands in that sort of class, although its intent is perhaps not as artful. And for me, that's really what makes this game special for me, even when considering the smaller mechanical nit-picks. Well... That and amazing quips like, "You can't just blow a HOLE into the surface of MARS." Yes I can, fella. And I just did.

Three Word Review: Flaming Shotgun Hookshot
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stvnorman
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by stvnorman »

I steered clear of Doom Eternal after the last one set off some very nasty motion sickness, which was my first but unfortunately not last experience of this in gaming. Then I saw the show was coming up, and it’s on Game Pass, so I thought what the hell, I’ll have a quick play along for a bit of context. I should have known better, having just come in from standing in the freezing rain to try and stop the sweating and the nausea after playing for an hour! Seemed like a lot of bonkers fun otherwise though!
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Quiet Paul
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by Quiet Paul »

As above: I LOVE Doom ’16 and I (lower case) love Doom Eternal. The gameplay is fun, the sound effects are spine-tingling, the gore is gorier and levels are longer, which is in some cases, good! I had an absolute blast with the game. The multiplayer though is absolute pants, but I had to put time in for those last achievements. It definitely lacked something though! Originality maybe? Regardless, Doom and Eternal are my cup of tea!

What is not my cuppa, is the apparent mob mentality formed by under-informed fans of the headline music producer Mick Gordon following his rather public strop that ID software mistreated the OST by putting in the mixes of another musical engineer, Chad Mossholder. Gordon distanced himself from Chad’s work, leading to frustrated fans taking to social media to vent all over ID and Chad as, I guess, they are entitled to do. Mick, doing nothing to stem this flow with more detailed information forces ID to set the record straight with their own statement.

From an employee point of view - when given a task to do (that I’ve agreed to do) with a deadline, I meet that deadline. If I’d asked for more time I certainly wouldn’t be granted an extra month! I’ll reel my neck in slightly as I don’t produce music and have no idea how long that actually takes but both ID and Mick seemingly agreed that the original deadline was realistic.

As a manager – if I give someone a task and they are struggling, I would definitely help them out by sending in another employee. Team work makes the dream work after all!

I will put the space-marine boot on the other foot now though, as perhaps delaying something until it is actually complete to standard and disregarding deadlines might actually be the way forward! As we’ve seen with the result of a certain CD Projekt Red game and the backlash following that disaster. I just can’t see past the investors and other big wigs allowing cash to flow from their pockets longer than it has to. Despite fans of other games such as GTA taking to social media and demanding that Rockstar take their time and get it right.

When money and customers are involved, someone will never be happy. What I simply abhor is the herd of people who partake in shaking their fists at the wrong people because they don’t know the full story and those in public eye – ‘not instigating’ - but certainly not helping these situations. I believe doing nothing, from a position where you can help, is just as bad as taking part.


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HMSPolio
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by HMSPolio »

There's a wonderfully infectious exuberance on display throughout Doom Eternal; a breathlessly childlike "and then and then and then" to it all. From the satisfyingly chunky and plasticky heft of everything, like heavy metal action figures being smashed together, to the thud and crunch of the sound design: with Doom Eternal ID Software seem to be fully leaning into the promise of their name.

Everything is gloriously, hilariously over the top: using giant mech arms to blast open entrances (although I'm a little disappointed we never actually got to use one), creating a bridge by punching a giant demon in the chest, and the Looney Toons 'pop' of headshots and Cacodemon's eyes. The Jenga tower of mechanics is largely incredibly successful in conveying a 'barely hanging in there' sense of excitement and tension, even if the sheer number of these mechanics becomes almost impossible to keep track of—frequently resulting in, for me, ineffectully punching away at demons without Bloodpunch, smashing the Flame Belch and Chainsaw buttons to no effect, or frustratringly getting caught up on some bit of geometry. But by god it's fun so much of the time.

From the low ammo counts, to the environmental dangers, platforming, and sheer aggression and numbers of the enemies, the game absolutely requires you to play it its way, and I think this is where it has lost people. I think the game is right in this instance though: it wants you to use everything in your arsenal, and be in a constant state of frenzied desperation. It desparately wants the player to have fun, and is incredibly accommodating in its implementation of difficulty, cheats, 'kill switches' (like the BFG and Crucible), and checkpointing. But you have to play it on its terms.

As for the most controversial aspects of the game, I was initially a bit put off by the story and lore of the game, having swapped out the 'eh, whatever' attitude of Doom 2016 for an incredibly expansive and ludicrous noun salad. But I think that misses the point: Doom Eternal's incomprehensible lore is a Yes album cover, a D&D manual, the back of a packet of Space Raiders. It's more more more for the nerdy, hyperactive child's imagination the game personifies.

The Marauder is a frustrating enemy, but I think that's entirely what they wanted: to exert increasing pressure on an already overhwhelmed player, asking 'well, what about THIS?'—a conceit they seem to be going for increasingly with the DLC and Master Levels which crank the intensity up to utterly punishing levels. I'll be interested to see where they go with this, as I can't imagine how they could add yet more complexity to what's here without the whole thing falling apart. But what a ride!
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OldBailey
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Re: 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by OldBailey »

Doom 2016 sparked something of a renaissance for the retro style FPS. A cutting edge AAA title that had its gaze fixed firmly on the past, taking decades old ideas about gameplay and level design and reminding us of something we'd lost when in 1998 Half Life paved the way for a new, more cinematic approach, signalling the end of the era of the "Doom Clone".

2016's greatest success was in making that old formula feel relevant again, and Doom Eternal is the logical contemporary conclusion of that philosophy. It's built on the same foundation and its maximalist game design feels true to the spirit of its predecessors, but this time taking equal inspiration from the best action games of the last 20 years in the expansion of its mechanics.

I understand the complaints that these changes have seen the game become a less pure shooter than its 2016 predecessor. That's true, but it's become a purer action game that at times, closer resembles Devil May Cry than it's more obvious inspiration. Doom Eternal is the best character action game since Bayonetta. All that's missing is a combo counter.

They haven't just made the game "harder" but increased the complexity in clever ways, requiring your brain be that much more engaged to where the game demands complete, unwavering focus. The result when you're playing well, is that zen-like flow state the best action games induce where the real world melts away.

The new mobility options afforded the player in the form of the dash and the meat hook transform the feel of every encounter. It allows for the kind of high skill manoeuvring that when mastered, turns each arena into a playground as you bounce around at lightning speed.

Collectables and secrets have been better woven into the flow of play too. Easier to find and often behind a small test of skill rather than obtuse puzzle solving that often saw me spend an hour in 2016 without engaging in any combat...in a Doom game!

Yes the multiplayer is superfluous and the story is naff but I'm happy to ignore the former and paid the latter about as much attention as Doom Guy himself.

Doom Eternal is something we see with increasing rarity these days. A true skill based, gameplay focused AAA title, built with a full awareness of gaming history whilst blazing a trail into the future for others to follow. Welcome to the new era of the Doom clone.
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Re: Our next podcast recording (13.3.21): 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by JCVanDan »

Like a lot of the other contributors, I really liked Doom 2016. I played most of it on the train on my Switch (with my pro controller!) and I had a blast playing a couple of hours each day during my commute.

Doom Eternal has been a different story, as I've bounced off it after playing the first 4 levels. There are many things to like about this game. It feels absolutely amazing to control, and in 4k/60FPS on my PS5 it's a technical masterpiece. The combat is admittedly exhilarating. But I think, too exhilarating. I find it so breathless and such an assault on the senses I can't really take it. It's the gaming equivalent of being smashed in the face repeatedly with a brick. This is probably why they added the awful platforming sections between fights, but this has just ended up making the game fall into the old adage "long stretches of extreme boredom, punctuated by moments of extreme terror". Another area I think was a huge misstep was the customisation systems. There's just so much of it. There are a silly amount of ways to level up, and after 4 hours I was still mystified by the various messy UI's. I think they should have done away with the level up systems completely. This is Doom, not the Elder Scrolls.

All this said, I think for some people this game will be like catnip. I know if I had a lot of free time I could see myself having great fun playing this alongside other games when I was in the mood, as I did with Doom 2016. It's just that this sort of experience isn't really for a man who has a hectic family life, and just an hour or two to play games right before bedtime. I hope I end up coming back to this game in a few years when life has calmed down and really digging the complexity of the systems and adrenaline rush of the combat, but for now...it's a no from me.
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Re: Our next podcast recording (13.3.21): 460 - DOOM Eternal

Post by Gadget8Bit »

DOOM Eternal was a huge disappointment for me. DOOM 2016 is one of my favourite games of all time. DOOM was my gateway into gaming as a kid and I’m even one of those weirdos who loves DOOM 3

But Eternal.... no, Eternal isn’t DOOM for me.

Sure it’s fast and it’s violent, but it doesn’t have the magic or the essence of DOOM in it. Other people will talk about the platforming, or the knobbling of the amount of ammo you can carry to force you into a specific play style, but no, the bit that killed it for me was the Marauder.

For the love of all that is unholy the Marauder is an ATROCIOUS entry to the series. He kills the flow of the game at every appearance and he simply isn’t fun to fight. If I met him in a Dark Souls game I’d have a great time knocking seven bells out of him, but this is DOOM! Precision frame perfect timing and invincible enemies aren’t in DOOM’s DNA.

I also wasn’t a fan of the story cutscenes that took you out of the Doomslayer’s head and tried to give a complicated lore and backstory to him. No, nuts to that, all the backstory I need is my guy exists, demons exist and shotguns exist. That’s all DOOM needs. Given the way that the character in the 2016 release actively rejects the storyline in favour of just killing demons, having a high falootin’ story in Eternal seemed a bit backwards to me.

I was so disappointed with Eternal.
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Quiet Paul
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Re: DOOM Eternal

Post by Quiet Paul »

“You’re not a get good willy-waver by any means...”

“...get good willy-waver...”

Amazing!
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Magical_Isopod
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Re: DOOM Eternal

Post by Magical_Isopod »

Really enjoyed this episode. Eternal is definitely my favourite in the series, and I feel like it was done justice here. But I did find the correspondence of "it's not real DOOM" when considering the lore to be quite strange, as the series lore has ALWAYS been fairly deep. It was, after all, inspired by a D&D session, so I would think the sort of "the DM did what?" elements in the series would fit right in. Cartoonish hell priests and ancient alien ghosts? Feels pretty DOOM to me honestly.
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KissMammal
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Re: DOOM Eternal

Post by KissMammal »

I guess the response to that would be that whatever lore there was in the original games was all 'outside' of the game rather than baked into it. As far as I remember the sum total of story in the originals was like a brief page of text.

Regardless the story in Eternal didn't really bother me any more than it did in Doom 2016 - I almost always skip or zone out during cutscenes in pretty much any game I'm playing.
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