Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

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Todinho
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Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » November 9th, 2016, 6:15 am

After the results of the US election that has taken many aback I think 2016 proved far beyond the point of doubt were we see a clear rise of the Far Right worldwide not only has the US elected a proto-fascist demagogue,but the UK voted for Brexit, a right wing media coup ousted our elected president in Brazil and the philipines elected a guy that openly looks favorably on Hitler and whose drug policies support vigilante killing.The perspectives in 2017 dont look better so Im here to ask why?Has the world suddenly become an incredibly more conservative and hatefull place?Why cant the left win and pose a challenge to them? I ask this question here because it`s a chill forum of mostly left leaning people,so I want to ask where do you think the left went wrong worldwide?Because clearly something wrong systematically for this trend to be going worldwide,when this happened before it was the 1930`s there was a global depression,so who`s to blame here?

From my point of view it started with the neutering of the left after the end of the cold war,the left parties in the west and most of the world became "moderates" they got rid of marxists,socialists and activists;they got in bed with corporations,neoliberalism and embraced globalization. The economic indicators on paper have improved however from every person I talk and hear from the living standarts and perspectives have gone down,I know this changes from country to country but this is the general sense I get. Not only that but worldwide people no longer believe in the political process in all voting the trends of participation have gone down even here in Brazil where voting is mandatory the amount of of "null" votes was by far the one chosen by people who no longer believe in politicians.

I wanted to start a discussion here because obvisously there's alot of people here that are older and have different backgrounds then I so maybe your take away is different but this is a trend that has been ongoing and if there's not an alternative to this far-Right rise the world can get to a very dark place,I dont want this thread to be anything but civil and maybe a thread like this has no place in the forum and if so by all means delete it but I really think it's something that needs discussing and I would never try to discuss something like this on the internet on anywhere but here.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Craig » November 9th, 2016, 8:10 am

I'm numbed by the result in the US even more so than Brexit. In short, although I disagree with Brexit and the debate had a lot of misinformation and abhorrent anti immigration tones, the idea of leaving the EU itself is not inherently bad and I know some very intelligent folk who voted that way for considered reasons.

This? Not a chance. It's horrid through and through. The amount you have to ignore in order to support Trump is obscene. Even if you don't think he's racist or sexist, he's clearly dishonest, self serving, incoherent and thin skinned - no traits that should be with the someone in office.



But the left face a real problem. How do you tell people that someone is telling bald face lies to their face? Echo chambers on the internet obviously don't help change other people's minds and there has been far too much "He supports Trump/Brexit and is therefore an idiot."

Even if you consider that true, you won't change anyone's mind by saying "You're such an idiot and here's why..."

How do you convince people their emperor has no clothes?

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by KSubzero1000 » November 9th, 2016, 10:59 am

I think it's a combination of different factors.

First of all, and I may be outing myself as a bit of a misanthrope here, but basic human nature is not pretty. It's easy to forget that if you happen to live in a time of relative peace and comfort. People always find it much easier to start killing each other than to coexist harmoniously. And it takes both social conditioning and individual strength of character to rise above that. Unfortunately, people as a group only ever find the motivation to truly live in peace if they've experienced war firsthand. And so it becomes a vicious cycle of slowly alternating between wartime and peacetime as one generation follows the other. I do believe that the rise of violent far-right values (in Europe at least) has something to do with the fact that a lot of young people only view war as something distant and foreign. Something they've seen on TV and heard about in history class, but never experienced themselves. So surely it can't be that bad, right? Which makes them fall prey to virulent nationalistic rhetoric very easily.

EDIT: A good example of this would be Russia. Do you think Putin's current nationalistic pro-USSR rhetoric would have worked 20 years ago when the wounds were still fresh?

Despair is another factor. When times are tough and people are worried about their job and the future of their children, they're more likely to follow manipulative leaders who tell them what they want to hear without thinking twice. Textbook demagoguery. Both the economy and the migrant crisis tapped right into that. The way that left-leaning politicians conducted themselves also didn't help. If any argument or question regarding the subject of immigration is met with the same shrieks and accusations of bigotry, it's no surprise that some people start looking for answers elsewhere. There are times and subjects where neither the left nor the right appeals to reason. Which leads me to my next point.

Craig made a very important and valid point about the echo chamber phenomenon on the internet. It's not a coincidence that the radicalization of political ideologies in the western world happened over the same period of time during which (anti-)social media were taking off. People were suddenly given complete control of their political environment and they took the easy way out. The system seems entirely binary at this point: People pick whatever side suits their needs at first and then stick with it. Their ideology becomes their identity. Blind allegiance rules supreme. No matter what they come across, they just end up radicalizing themselves and others. There doesn't seem to be any room for nuance or subtlety: Both sides end up convinced they've got it all figured out and that everybody who isn't swearing allegiance to the same values is a monster. People interacted much more frequently with those who held different opinions 10 years ago. There was much more of an exchange. If you disagreed with someone, you could tell them about it face-to-face. Now, people just stay in their little bubble preaching to the same choir every day. And so when they come out of it, their behavior is rooted in condescension (at best) or blind antagonism (at worst). The information age does not mean the wisdom age, unfortunately.

I consider myself apolitical but definitely left-leaning in terms of my values, and yet the type of sectarian and dogmatic behavior I've observed on mainstream liberal sites has made me very cautious to say the least. The left and the right are supposed to keep each other in check, after all. The rise of the far-right and of the far-left are two sides of the same coin. Who should be the voice of reason here?

Last but not least, people are becoming increasingly frustrated and disillusioned with the political status quo. And I think this was if not the main, then certainly a very important factor in the US elections. Trump is a sleazy and incompetent individual, but he is also... genuine in his dishonesty. If that makes sense. He's not an actor. Whenever he lies or deflects a question, he does so in the most painfully obvious manner. And people view him as a breath of fresh air when compared to Clinton, who, as a candidate, is about the most representative of the establishment as you could possibly find. I see the result of the vote less as a triumph of the far-right in and of itself (although that certainly played a huge part), and more as a "triumph" of the anti-establishment movement. Trump did not win as much as it was Clinton who failed. On a more positive note, I would argue that Sanders' surprising popularity among younger voters came from a very similar place. People don't see themselves, don't trust and don't want to vote for another well-dressed, well-spoken talking head. I certainly don't think it justifies giving your vote to the first fascist demagogue that comes along, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't at least partially understand the motivation.

Worst possible outcome of all this: WW3. Best possible outcome? A fundamental restructuring of the political system and a much-needed humane "back to basics" approach.


Just my two cents. I understand your hesitation, Todinho, and I hope this thread goes well.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » November 9th, 2016, 12:19 pm

KSubzero1000 wrote: First of all, and I may be outing myself as a bit of a misanthrope here, but basic human nature is not pretty. It's easy to forget that if you happen to live in a time of relative peace and comfort. People always find it much easier to start killing each other than to coexist harmoniously. And it takes both social conditioning and individual strength of character to rise above that. Unfortunately, people as a group only ever find the motivation to truly live in peace if they've experienced war firsthand. And so it becomes a vicious cycle of slowly alternating between wartime and peacetime as one generation follows the other. I do believe that the rise of violent far-right values (in Europe at least) has something to do with the fact that a lot of young people only view war as something distant and foreign. Something they've seen on TV and heard about in history class, but never experienced themselves. So surely it can't be that bad, right? Which makes them fall prey to virulent nationalistic rhetoric very easily.
Despair is another factor. When times are tough and people are worried about their job and the future of their children, they're more likely to follow manipulative leaders who tell them what they want to hear without thinking twice. Textbook demagoguery. Both the economy and the migrant crisis tapped right into that. The way that left-leaning politicians conducted themselves also didn't help. If any argument or question regarding the subject of immigration is met with the same shrieks and accusations of bigotry, it's no surprise that some people start looking for answers elsewhere. There are times and subjects where neither the left nor the right appeals to reason. Which leads me to my next point.
I think you make some really good points but I dont fully beleieve that humans need a cycle of violence to fall in line,I think when people are under pressure and hopelless as you said that's when extremism takes root and demagogues rise but we also cant let ourselfs be entirely convinced by this because this is a very status quo vision of things,the truth is when the population is like this the ruling elites are so corrupt and blind to societies problems that change becomes inevitable(like say how the huffington post had the chances of a Hillary victory at 98%),my problem is that the left ceased to be that force for change it became part of the very structure and system it says it fights against,the democrats did everything in their power to crush the populist of the left Bernie Sanders not only that but they actually propped up Trump because they thought he would be "easy to beat" they would rather put their country on a coin toss between Clinton and Fascism then let a true populist like Sanders win,their agenda was to themselfs. The country that elected a black man with a name of Barack HUSSEIN Obama whose popularity is at 55% didnt turned super racist overnight the reasons for this are economic and Trump appealed to that because the democrats crushed Sanders who was for a New deal kinda of approach,Michael Moore puts it best here:

KSubzero1000 wrote: Craig made a very important and valid point about the echo chamber phenomenon on the internet. It's not a coincidence that the radicalization of political ideologies in the western world happened over the same period of time during which (anti-)social media were taking off. People were suddenly given complete control of their political environment and they took the easy way out. The system seems entirely binary at this point: People pick whatever side suits their needs at first and then stick with it. Their ideology becomes their identity. Blind allegiance rules supreme. No matter what they come across, they just end up radicalizing themselves and others. There doesn't seem to be any room for nuance or subtlety: Both sides end up convinced they've got it all figured out and that everybody who isn't swearing allegiance to the same values is a monster. People interacted much more frequently with those who held different opinions 10 years ago. There was much more of an exchange. If you disagreed with someone, you could tell them about it face-to-face. Now, people just stay in their little bubble preaching to the same choir every day. And so when they come out of it, their behavior is rooted in condescension (at best) or blind antagonism (at worst). The information age does not mean the wisdom age, unfortunately.

I consider myself apolitical but definitely left-leaning in terms of my values, and yet the type of sectarian and dogmatic behavior I've observed on mainstream liberal sites has made me very cautious to say the least. The left and the right are supposed to keep each other in check, after all. The rise of the far-right and of the far-left are two sides of the same coin. Who should be the voice of reason here?

Last but not least, people are becoming increasingly frustrated and disillusioned with the political status quo. And I think this was if not the main, then certainly a very important factor in the US elections. Trump is a sleazy and incompetent individual, but he is also... genuine in his dishonesty. If that makes sense. He's not an actor. Whenever he lies or deflects a question, he does so in the most painfully obvious manner. And people view him as a breath of fresh air when compared to Clinton, who, as a candidate, is about the most representative of the establishment as you could possibly find. I see the result of the vote less as a triumph of the far-right in and of itself (although that certainly played a huge part), and more as a "triumph" of the anti-establishment movement. Trump did not win as much as it was Clinton who failed. On a more positive note, I would argue that Sanders' surprising popularity among younger voters came from a very similar place. People don't see themselves, don't trust and don't want to vote for another well-dressed, well-spoken talking head. I certainly don't think it justifies giving your vote to the first fascist demagogue that comes along, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't at least partially understand the motivation.
People have lost faith in the system entirelly because no matter what color the party in power is things will stay the same and the structures of power wont change,left or right dont matter then and people are tired of the neoliberal elites that have been running things since the 90's.
What Craig said about the intenet making this all worse is 100% true,it's never been easier to get information,to spread misinformation and to close yourself to all opposing views,nobodys wrong and nobodys is right the world in engulfed by this and political discussion to generate conclusions becames moot(man I swear Kojima was a fucking prophet in 2001) and I hate to do it but to quote Henry Kissinger revolutions as such will get increasingly easy to start and increasingly hard to finnish,so it's no wonder people will opt for an easier path I wonder how many of those caught up by Obama's message of change bothered to show up and vote after their vote for change was for naught?
KSubzero1000 wrote:
EDIT: A good example of this would be Russia. Do you think Putin's current nationalistic pro-USSR rhetoric would have worked 20 years ago when the wounds were still fresh?
Just on this last point Im gonna be a little controversial but I think Putin is far removed from this,he himself is facing also a rise in the far right on his own country because the fascist party there actually grew quite alot last election,Putin is a centre-right autoritarian no doubt but he is no fascist that needs uber nationalism to succeed,when he inhereted Russia after Yeltsin fucked it up so much the country was in shambles,the state economy had been privatized and handed to Oligarchs,high quality public service went to shit,quality of life went to shit,organized crime soared and the country faced a real threat of desintegration. And well Putin fixed all that he kept the Oligarchs in check,made the economy grow,brought security,etc.He did it all in a very autoritarian and I dare say "russian" fashion but it worked I interview I always remember was when a reporter asked why a woman supported Putin so much and she said "Before Putin corruption was completely outta control,under Putin we only have normal corruption" living standarts actually improved and russians who were humiliated at the end of the Cold War could look with some semblance of pride at their country again(I'd like to point out that Gorbachev is still today the most unpopular leader in Russia of the past 50 years for destroying the USSR,people hate him there)
Now lately Russia has been more at odds with the West but from a cold logic point of view this was inevitable due to geopolitics,Russia was opposed by Britain in the 1800's the US in 1900's and above ideology all turns around geopolitics and state interests.To me regardless of whoever occupied the Kremlin or White House this was bound to happen given the recent history and policies of both,Russia was rebuilding and reasserting itself on the international stage and the US wanted to fill completely the entire vaccum left by the end of the USSR,conflict was inevitable.
Back on Putin i see him alot like Vargas was here,he was president/dictator we had that was a centre right politician but cared for the development of the country and the rights and conditions of workers and he also came to power after a essential oligarchy ran the country,Vargas hunted down both comunists and fascists alike and ironically is looked upon favarobly by the left here even those who consider themselfs socialists because of the material progress he brought.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by KSubzero1000 » November 9th, 2016, 1:10 pm

Todinho wrote: I think you make some really good points but I dont fully beleieve that humans need a cycle of violence to fall in line
All I'm saying is that violence is a very real part of human nature and that pretending it doesn't exist on account of living in a time of relative peace and prosperity is not wise. But war is such a horrible and traumatic event that it tends to make people reconsider their worldview immediately afterwards. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the leaders who have experienced war firsthand as soldiers in their youth tend to be the most reluctant to opt for militaristic solutions when in power.
Todinho wrote:my problem is that the left ceased to be that force for change it became part of the very structure and system it says it fights against,the democrats did everything in their power to crush the populist of the left Bernie Sanders not only that but they actually propped up Trump because they thought he would be "easy to beat" they would rather put their country on a coin toss between Clinton and Fascism then let a true populist like Sanders win,their agenda was to themselfs.
People have lost faith in the system entirelly because no matter what color the party in power is things will stay the same and the structures of power wont change,left or right dont matter then and people are tired of the neoliberal elites that have been running things since the 90's.
Very true.
Todinho wrote:What Craig said about the intenet making this all worse is 100% true,it's never been easier to get information,to spread misinformation and to close yourself to all opposing views,nobodys wrong and nobodys is right the world in engulfed by this and political discussion to generate conclusions becames moot(man I swear Kojima was a fucking prophet in 2001)
I KNOW, RIGHT!
Image

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » November 9th, 2016, 5:40 pm

Glen Greenwald put in the intercept in a far more eloquent manner what I've tried to say an important read : https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/dem ... of-brexit/

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » November 9th, 2016, 9:37 pm

I was gobsmacked when I heard the news this morning that Trump got elected. This trend of Far Right politics worldwide is very concerning. I was so lucky to leave the UK before Brexit happened, I have got in contact with old friends just to make sure they have not being hassled for being of a different nationality. Theresa May's government has already become shockingly authoritarian, the latest suggestion is that foreign doctors can only continue practising medicine in the UK until native doctors are qualified and then they are to be booted out of the country. A backwards and pointlessly cruel move. This seems to be the true tragedy of the UK. Farage and the far right clowns of UKIP may not have many seats in power but the Tories are effectively becoming UKIP 2.0. They get to see their agenda of xenophobia and inequality continue unabated.

As for the US, the American left has always annoyed me with its pettiness and refusal to get shit done. I was just as upset as anyone that Sanders did not get the Dem nomination but if you went on any political website comment section you would have hordes of progressives having temper tantrums and indulging in conspiracy theories of how Hilary stole the nomination instead of looking at the bigger picture and stopping Trump. Yes, Hilary is the status quo and the status quo is crap but good luck getting anything progressive achieved in a government controlled by Republicans at all levels and the mainstreaming of open bigotry that a Trump administration will only foster more and more. All the little social and environmental progress such as gay marriage and stopping the Keystone XL pipeline could potentially be going quickly down the toilet.

I am honestly quite scared for what will happen in the next few years. They are so many vital, important issues humanity needs to work on: the refugee crisis, soaring inequality, climate change, terrorism etc. and 2016 overall seems to be the year where we have eagerly put the gears in reverse and we are actively making these problems worse. I agree with those here who have pointed out that the corporate power grab that is neoliberalism has laid the foundations for fascism to become so seductive to so many people as it has lately. The likes of Reagan and Thatcher have a lot to answer for.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Joshihatsumitsu » November 9th, 2016, 10:12 pm

I can't contribute as much as others to this thread. From an Australian point of view, in our election this year, there definitely was a swing to minor parties with very bigoted and ignorant views, and fear is a fantastic tactic for making a political sale, as people are sick of the status quo. Now these people have seats in the senate and are wasting no time wasting everyone's time and money. The big promises made during the election cycle mean nothing in the real world, and in our country the difference they make will, fortunately, not be that major. Our politicians are opportunistic by nature, cynical as I am, and they'll exploit the populist movements to their advantage. There are no values: it's about getting a job, and hanging out for that very generous pension.

The thing is, as disappointed as I am in the candidates, it's the people who vote. I expect politicians and insecure billionaires to behave the way they do, but at the end of the day it's up to the people to vote, and if they throw their votes towards the right then they only have themselves to blame. That's democracy. In another four years it starts all over again for America. And then another four years and another...

But it's interesting that in the title of this thread is the word "rise". I'm guessing as disappointing as it's been, there must be a deeper belief in the cycle of things, that as bad as it is now there will eventually be a swing back the other way. And history will repeat. And round and round we go...

Like I said, I'm a very cynical lad... but I still have hope. We'll just have to work hard for it.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Craig » November 9th, 2016, 11:40 pm

I think one thing we need to remember regarding Brexit is that it is not intrinsically a far right policy. The campaign was definetly that way, but the actual question we were asked was not.

It's easy to think that those who voted for Brexit were xenophobic bigots, but it's certainly possible to want Britain out of the EU and still be pro immigration. The question of the referendum did not allow for that kind of nuance or to say "well, I want this but I abhor the rhetoric being used to justify it."

But it is vital to keep this in mind. Ministers now are using the decision as carte Blanche to do whatever and claim they have a mandate. They do not. All the British public have said is "I wish to leave the EU." Do not allow people to abuse this and claim otherwise to further their own cause.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » November 9th, 2016, 11:56 pm

The danger of events like Brexit and Trump is people getting hung up on the racist aspects of it and not focus on the main problem which is the fatigue against current elites,you just need to look at the numbers the US who 8 years ago elected a black didnt suddenly go super racist,Obama's lead in white voters when he won was among low income rural workers,the same demographic now that Trump crushed Hillary on,not only that but Trump outperformed Mitt Romney with blacks and latinos I mean think about it it should've been impossible but he did it and it was because of his economic populism and outsider nature. This is why tihs has to be a moment of self reflection for all those who favor the left worldwide,because this is the direct result of the left failing to provide the anwers and change people need,another example of this was the election in Greece where the far left syriza won even they went and bowed their head to the troika nad introduced more austerity and as a result the party that grew was the fascist Golden Dawn. This has to be the waking call for the left worldwide to stop compromising with neoliberals,this compromise is what got us here to the point between fascism and just corporatism,this has to be the moment the left reestructures and comes back swinging and give people something to vote FOR no against,because if that doesnt happen and this far right trend continues Im seriously worried about what can happen to the planet.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by ThirdDrawing » November 10th, 2016, 2:38 am

FIrst thing I thought of was that Michael Moore video.

You have an entire middle class that has been stomped down since Reagan got elected - by both parties.

Obama promised hope and change, yet when the banks almost destroyed the world economy and ruined hundreds of thousands of people in the US.....he gave them a slap on the wrist and it was business as usual. That, to me, was the watershed moment.

Add to that his position on phone and computer encryption (There shouldn't be any), continuing to spy on....the whole world really, haranguing whistle blowers, keeping Guantanamo open......the guy starts to make Nixon look like a hippie. And he doesn't look any better - or different - than Bush.

People are finally broken enough to just give the middle finger to the entire system.

Everybody keeps saying this is the "rise of the right wing". It's not - not totally. People are just completely fed up with politicians who continually promise things will get better then only make it better for their friends and themselves.

Trump managed to get his voice across because he's not a career politician and was perceived by voters as someone who won't participate in the same old cronyism of the system. That and the media was covering him all the time at the beginning because they thought it was cute he was running. They literally created this monster.

I really wish Bernie Sanders had run.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by eastmcduck » November 10th, 2016, 4:24 pm

It's interesting hearing views from outside the US. I don't have much to contribute to this that the rest of you haven't said better than I can. I will say I'm embarrassed and concerned for my country. This whole election has seemed like a big, drawn out reality TV show. I'm going to try to keep an open mind and hope that some changes occur for the better, but I think there's only so much that can be done when the people themselves, as someone else put it, are broken. Donald Trump as president has to be the biggest joke in history. I hope everyone around the world is enjoying a good laugh. I'm personally not laughing, but rather I'm shaking my head. I've lost a lot of respect for a lot of people who I once saw as decent, caring, intelligent people, who almost seemed to turn into mini Trumps themselves. Makes me sick.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Joshihatsumitsu » November 10th, 2016, 8:30 pm

eastmcduck wrote:It's interesting hearing views from outside the US. I don't have much to contribute to this that the rest of you haven't said better than I can. I will say I'm embarrassed and concerned for my country. This whole election has seemed like a big, drawn out reality TV show. I'm going to try to keep an open mind and hope that some changes occur for the better, but I think there's only so much that can be done when the people themselves, as someone else put it, are broken. Donald Trump as president has to be the biggest joke in history. I hope everyone around the world is enjoying a good laugh. I'm personally not laughing, but rather I'm shaking my head. I've lost a lot of respect for a lot of people who I once saw as decent, caring, intelligent people, who almost seemed to turn into mini Trumps themselves. Makes me sick.
That's what makes this thread a bit difficult to contribute too. There's never been an election in my short lifetime that has got the worldwide reaction this one got. Being at the arse end of the globe (ie Australia) I'm aware that my input and opinions are not equal, at all, to those who actually live in the US. The biggest concern for Australia affects trade, and the Asia-Pacific region, and our countries relationship with China.

So, yeah, my condolences. Though it would be great to get some more US input, and insight, as this really affects them the most.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by KSubzero1000 » November 11th, 2016, 6:44 am

Joshihatsumitsu wrote:Being at the arse end of the globe (ie Australia) I'm aware that my input and opinions are not equal, at all, to those who actually live in the US.
Maybe not "equal", no, but outside opinions and perspectives often have a very underappreciated quality: namely dispassionate objectivity. There is a healthy middle ground to be found between being close enough to care, but distant enough to let facts come first and reason prevail.

Things shouldn't be judged according to one metric only and turned into mere quantitative factors.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Todinho » November 11th, 2016, 3:36 pm

It's interesting that many americans cant fathom or understand how could Trump win yet I've always viewd it as a coin toss and the reason this thread the Rise of the Far -Right Worldwide is because this isnt an incident,it's part of a trend. The most distrubing part of people seeking someone to blame is obviously people trying to tie Trump's victory to "russian influence" not only there's 0 evidence for that but it's a claim to reinforce the propaganda coming from Clinton over the past months over wikileaks and such,while Im horrified at the prospect at Trump having nuclear codes I have to be honest but I was legitimately worried at Clinton's anti-russia rethoric and how that might play out after the election,Gorbachev has already said that the current relations between the US and Russia are the worst and most dangerous they have ever been and Clinton didnt exactly promised a change to that. I think this need to see Trump as somehow tied to the russians comes from wanting to distance him from being an entirely american phenomenon,if you can say the russians propped him up you can take some of the blame off yourself,it's funny because if any candidate was a candidate of a foreign gov was Clinton, the Gulf monarchys funded Clinton for years and many of them saw her in office as them recieving carte blanche,because they felt restricted and neglected by Obama.

Speaking of blame though I'd like to point another thing that will be controversial,but I'd like to talk about the identitary left or as I like to call them "post-modern left" this a left that came out after the cold war and it's what many left parties adopted from the 90's ownard,this view is kinda of the opposite of the Marx school of thought that economic inequality drove all injustices in society,the post-modern left though will take the identity politics and put them on the forefront of the debate. To them the defining factor is identity,they'll either relegate economics to second category or try to tie it as being a by product of identity,to them the material inequalities and injustice created by capitalism arent as important and sometimes arent even a factor. These are the people that will complain about lack of representation in the media and will look at american companies exploiting slave labour in third countries as "oh well what can you do".
This is a generalization of course but it goes with what I was saying the right and left in the west became very similar economically and politically,the only thing that really separated them was that the left was socially progressive. I think 30 years after the Cold War and with the rise of figures like Trump we can say that the post-modern left has failed and that with the continued rise in inequality Marx has never been more relevant then today,and you can see that in the campaigns of Sanders and Clinton.

Sanders is an old school socialist from the 60's his roots are in Marx and his campaign talked about bringing people together and talked about the economic situation that affected all americans and how unjust the system is and he rose as a result being very popular in states that would have granted the democrats victory but that Trump took by his economic populism. Clinton on the other hand only appealed to the people that wanted the first woman president or were afraid of Trump,hell her slogan was "Im with Her" say what you want about Trump's "Make America Great again" but at least he's talking about the country.

Here in Rio we had another example of this with the 2 candidates we had for mayor one a fundamentalist pastor and the other a teacher from the left,well the left was crushed,not because people are really fundamentalist here,over 52% of the population refused to vote for either and annuled their vote,but because the message of the left was this identity politics and it didnt resonate,it turned out people who are struggling financially and worried if they'll be able to afford rent or even food dont care much about representation,for example a congresswoman elected here came from the favelas and was touted by the left here as a poor black woman that made it and that's true however if you look from where her votes came from,they came from the richest side of town meanwhile she didnt get a single vote from the favela it was essencially rich white people putting a black woman in congress because they wanted representation,not saying that's wrong but why that message didnt resonate in the poor communities that it should?Because the post modern left lost the ability to appeal to the core of the people,to what affects their lifes how could Clinton hoped to win being for all the trade deals that ruined the life of so many workers?If the Left isnt capable of appealing to the people the right wing demagogues appealing to their base prejudices and fears will.

A good,if rather angry and abrasive,synthesis here:

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Jobobonobo
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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » November 11th, 2016, 9:15 pm

To no one's surprise, Donald Trump, the man who said he was going to tackle corporate greed and corruption in Washington is stocking his government with lobbyists of the industries they are supposed to regulate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/us/po ... -team.html

Some of these lobbyists include:
Michael Catanzaro, a lobbyist whose clients include Devon Energy and Encana Oil and Gas, holds the “energy independence” portfolio.

Michael Torrey, a lobbyist who runs a firm that has earned millions of dollars helping food industry players such as the American Beverage Association and the dairy giant Dean Foods, is helping set up the new team at the Department of Agriculture.

Michael McKenna, another lobbyist helping to pick key administration officials who will oversee energy policy, has a client list that this year has included the Southern Company, one of the most vocal critics of efforts to prevent climate change by putting limits on emissions from coal-burning power plants.

Advisers with ties to other industries include Martin Whitmer, who is overseeing “transportation and infrastructure” for the Trump transition. He is the chairman of a Washington law firm whose lobbying clients include the Association of American Railroads and the National Asphalt Pavement Association
David Malpass, the former chief economist at Bear Stearns, the Wall Street investment bank that collapsed during the 2008 financial crisis, is overseeing the “economic issues” portfolio of the transition, as well as operations at the Treasury Department. Mr. Malpass now runs a firm called Encima Global, which sells economic research to institutional investors and corporate clients.

Mr. Eisenach, as a telecom industry consultant, has worked to help major cellular companies fight back against regulations proposed by the F.C.C. that would mandate so-called net neutrality — requiring providers to give equal access to their networks to outside companies. He is now helping to oversee the rebuilding of the staff at the F.C.C.

Dan DiMicco, a former chief executive of the steelmaking company Nucor, who now serves on the board of directors of Duke Energy, is heading the transition team for the Office of the United States Trade Representative. Mr. DiMicco has long argued that China is unfairly subsidizing its manufacturing sector at the expense of American jobs.
This is straight out of the Far Right playbook. Pretend to be the "Voice of the People" and say you will fight for the little guy but as soon as you get into power under those false promises, you fill governmental positions for all your corporate buddies and make damn sure business will get continue as usual. Seeing as Trump is one of the most dishonest characters to appear in US politics in a long time, this was a depressingly predictable hypocrisy he has committed.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » November 11th, 2016, 9:54 pm

Todinho wrote: Speaking of blame though I'd like to point another thing that will be controversial,but I'd like to talk about the identitary left or as I like to call them "post-modern left" this a left that came out after the cold war and it's what many left parties adopted from the 90's ownard,this view is kinda of the opposite of the Marx school of thought that economic inequality drove all injustices in society,the post-modern left though will take the identity politics and put them on the forefront of the debate. To them the defining factor is identity,they'll either relegate economics to second category or try to tie it as being a by product of identity,to them the material inequalities and injustice created by capitalism arent as important and sometimes arent even a factor. These are the people that will complain about lack of representation in the media and will look at american companies exploiting slave labour in third countries as "oh well what can you do".
I certainly agree with you that the left's lack of a loud and coherent focus on economic issues is a major factor in why they are doing so poorly at the moment. However, I think it would be equally foolish if the left were to focus on economic issues to the exclusion of everything else. To me, left wing politics is about helping the vulnerable and oppressed in society. While that should always include the lower classes, this also means that the interests of minorities, women, LGBT folks and the disabled should also be an equally important base for the left to appeal to. It is great if you are going to get tough on banks but if you are a black person in the US, another major concern of yours will be police reform, seeing as a disturbingly high amount seem to be murdered by police officers every year usually based on little more than they "looked suspicious". Another serious concern is that in many parts of the world, being any sexuality other than straight can get you killed. And the economic and social issues can intersect. For example, gentrification can destroy communities by pricing the poor inhabitants out of their homes and force them to move. This happens to all races, but the poorest communities also happen to be non white so they are hit doubly hard due to the history of these communities being segregated into ghettoes. A left that will dismiss these very real concerns as nothing more as "identity politics" will be just as irrelevant as a left too timid to go up against the neoliberal dogma of "markets know best".

If the left is to survive, it has to make arguments that appeal to as wide a sector of society as possible and to do that, it needs to practice intersectionality a hell of a lot more. By doing this, then the divisive bullshit of demagogues will have a far harder time of swaying the populace. And 2016 has to be an urgent wake up call for all of us to get this right and stay focused.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Joshihatsumitsu » November 11th, 2016, 11:01 pm

Todinho wrote:A good,if rather angry and abrasive,synthesis here:
That video says it better than I ever could.

In my own country some people are surprised as to why, as a tax playing adult, I have no interest or belief in politics. Usually I just jokingly respond with "I'm an atheist: if God doesn't stand a chance then what hope would a politician have?"

When it comes to elections in Australia, I'm not really seeing much difference between the left and the right anyway, and the fringe parties are ultimately making deals with the two big parties, and round and round we go. Nothing really changes, so it's hard to be engaged with politics at all. As an unmarried, childless, very single adult, I'm very, very independent: if something needs doing, there's no one else around to do it, so I have to do it myself. From my personal perspective, politics is all talk and no action.

And from that standpoint, the vote for Trump makes sense: he's not a politician. That being said, now he's elected, he is a politician. Government is not the same as business, and he'll have to adapt accordingly. What this means to the world: just have to wait and see. Speculation is all anyone can offer at this point of time anyway.

And I have to say: as someone who has no belief in politics, this thread has been wonderfully engaging!

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by nickturner13 » January 17th, 2017, 10:14 pm

I have to say that for the first 37 years of my life I haven't given a shit about politics.

But, since the Brexit referendum, it's been close to my thoughts, and in the past few months, been hardly all I've thought about.

My normal day these days consists of wake up, read about Brexit/Trump, Work, read about Brexit/Trump, Bed. I'm struggling to even find time for gaming due to information overload (of my own doing) on Brexit/Trump. Let alone anything else in life.

I'm terrified to the core of what these things mean. It feels to me like western civilization is about to change profoundly, and we have no control or say in what this means.

Am I going crazy? Do I need to get on the doc for some happy pills? Or are all my fears legitimate and we're all heading down a horrible dark hole with little chance of getting out?

I dont know, I'm filling my head with so many things right now, from economic explanations from Brown University tutors to racist UKIP "acquaintances" who are convinced that Brexit is the best thing that could ever happen.

I'm scared. Very very scared.

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Re: Rise of the Far-Right Worldwide

Post by Jobobonobo » January 18th, 2017, 7:11 pm

nickturner13 wrote:
I'm terrified to the core of what these things mean. It feels to me like western civilization is about to change profoundly, and we have no control or say in what this means.

Am I going crazy? Do I need to get on the doc for some happy pills? Or are all my fears legitimate and we're all heading down a horrible dark hole with little chance of getting out?

I dont know, I'm filling my head with so many things right now, from economic explanations from Brown University tutors to racist UKIP "acquaintances" who are convinced that Brexit is the best thing that could ever happen.

I'm scared. Very very scared.
I do not think you are going crazy, the world seems to be going backwards in the last year or so and just reading about the horror show that is Trump's cabinet picks and what he plans to do is going to lead to some very tough times at best.

I have noticed in the last few months of 2016, I was trying to avoid news for a while and to do anything else. Focus on my research, take long walks through the woods, play videogames, watch comedies, etc. It is very important to stay informed about what is going on and to be vigilant about what the government is planning to implement but to consume it all the time will lead you into a spiral of doom and will let you feel helpless.

So my advice, step away from social media and news in general for a few days. Focus on your passions and what you love. And when you feel rejuvenated do what you can, donate to organisations that are fighting this tidal wave of hate and division, sign petitions, hell, even march on the street if you have to. Of course, do whatever your life situation allows, but for the sake of your mental health, just getting away from the news for a while is something I would recommend.

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