The perspective is pretty zoomed-out for most of the game so the character design might not be too off-putting for those who don't like it. As for the environments, they do start off a little dull, but there's at least one towards the end that has a great layered backdrop that is just astounding.
Where this game succeeds, though, is its handling of stealth mechanics, ease of character movement and its level design. I love that there are areas/rooms with nothing going on in them; it could be a promise of more enemies in New Game+ or simply to allow the player to breathe, but it invited me to explore everywhere I could and made the finding of a hidden Scroll, Artifact or Challenge Room a little more notable. Kudos to Klei, this is something special.
Mark of the Ninja
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James
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Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
It's been over a year since this topic was active, but it's time to resurrect it with Dosan's 'is it good, is it bad' toxic tattoo sumi just in time to save us all with Issue 108 on... Mark Of The Ninja!
It's be great to hear your thoughts on Klei Entertainment's stealthy 2D platformer. Anyone play Shank (2) before this, and (if so) how did you think Mark Of The Ninja compared?
It's be great to hear your thoughts on Klei Entertainment's stealthy 2D platformer. Anyone play Shank (2) before this, and (if so) how did you think Mark Of The Ninja compared?
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
Stealth is one of the hardest things to get right in a video game. There are far too many examples of games that have a 'stealth section' that ends up being awful because they don't understand how to do stealth without it being overly picky and punishing (for example, Fahrenheit)
Mark of the Ninja gets it, resulting in one of the best stealth games there is.
There are two elements that a stealth game needs to get right in order to be fun and not annoying:
1) It has to be completely clear at ALL TIMES whether you are hidden or not, ideally without having to keep your focus on a radar display in the corner.
2) There has to be a way to recover back to the shadows if you mess up without the game just killing you off or forcing a restart.
Mark of the Ninja has a very clever art style that makes it obvious whether the player is standing in the light or not. Light and dark being a hard boundary might seem a little contrived, but it makes for a much more fun game than it would otherwise be.
Mark of the Ninja also adds a very clever visualisation of noise using pulsing concentric circles to show how far sound is travelling. This adds whole new layers of gameplay around distracting the guards by making noise, and also encourages you to move slowly. It also allows you to tell if there are guards in rooms you can't yet see into.
The game also has a decent combat system that means that if you get spotted it's still fun to fight off the guards and flee back to the shadows to hide. It isn't an action game with some stealth bits. It's a proper stealth game built entirely around it's core mechanics, and it's really very good indeed.
Mark of the Ninja gets it, resulting in one of the best stealth games there is.
There are two elements that a stealth game needs to get right in order to be fun and not annoying:
1) It has to be completely clear at ALL TIMES whether you are hidden or not, ideally without having to keep your focus on a radar display in the corner.
2) There has to be a way to recover back to the shadows if you mess up without the game just killing you off or forcing a restart.
Mark of the Ninja has a very clever art style that makes it obvious whether the player is standing in the light or not. Light and dark being a hard boundary might seem a little contrived, but it makes for a much more fun game than it would otherwise be.
Mark of the Ninja also adds a very clever visualisation of noise using pulsing concentric circles to show how far sound is travelling. This adds whole new layers of gameplay around distracting the guards by making noise, and also encourages you to move slowly. It also allows you to tell if there are guards in rooms you can't yet see into.
The game also has a decent combat system that means that if you get spotted it's still fun to fight off the guards and flee back to the shadows to hide. It isn't an action game with some stealth bits. It's a proper stealth game built entirely around it's core mechanics, and it's really very good indeed.
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InsrtCoins
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Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
I want to say that Mark of the Ninja is a great stealth game, but I don't feel qualified to make that judgment. I have always loved the idea of stealth in video games -- that thrill of hiding from oblivious enemies, moving from shadow to shadow -- but I have always been rather poor at stealth games. I'm terrible at the Metal Gear Solid games. I'm terrible at the old Deus Ex games. I'm terrible at Thief. The reason is always the same. No matter how well I plan my routes through a room, there is always a wandering guard or mine that I didn't see rounding a corner at just the wrong moment. Any kind of thinking on my feet I try to do at that point is crippled by the fact that most stealth games are not competent enough action games to allow for much recovery once you have made a mistake and been spotted (a problem that is starting to become a relic of the past as the new breed of stealth-action hybrids like Batman: Arkham Asylum and Dishonored close this gap). So, while I don't feel qualified to make a judgment about Mark of the Ninja as a game in the stealth genre, I can say that I really enjoyed it.
Mark of the Ninja stripped away a lot of the clutter that gets in the way of effective stealth gameplay. It understands that, at their core, stealth titles are effectively puzzle games -- more in line with games like Portal than anything else. If a run through a room doesn't work, it is because I have not accounted for an element of the puzzle. Although limited to a 2 dimensional space, there are multiple solutions to just about every room the player comes across, through multiple routes or the implementation of different gadgetry. This open-ended nature of the game is incredibly freeing, and it encourages further experimentation if a method isn't working.
The greatest achievement of Mark of the Ninja is how much information the game is conveying to the player at any given time without it feeling overwhelming. We have seen so many games with cluttered HUDs packed with information; health gauges, mana gauges, damage indicators, grenade warnings, countdown clocks, enemy and ally names, character's mood... It quickly gets to be too much. Mark of the Ninja uses clever and intuitive methods for displaying all kinds of information like how much noise you're making and what range a guard would have to be in to hear it, levels of light, the range of a dog's sense of smell, what the character can and cannot see and hear... It's all communicated so clearly that at a moment's glance at the screen, the player intuitively absorbs all of this information. And this is on top of the detailed and lovely hand-drawn art.
The story is a bit convoluted and confusing at times, but it communicates enough of the central information well enough to impart a great tone and deliver a few fairly thought-provoking story beats.
Overall, Mark of the Ninja is a painstakingly-well-crafted game that is easy to pick up and play. Everything it sets out to do, it does very well. It does not compromise on any of its ambitions -- rather, it was tested and refined to make sure that every moment of gameplay felt smooth, natural, and fun.
Mark of the Ninja stripped away a lot of the clutter that gets in the way of effective stealth gameplay. It understands that, at their core, stealth titles are effectively puzzle games -- more in line with games like Portal than anything else. If a run through a room doesn't work, it is because I have not accounted for an element of the puzzle. Although limited to a 2 dimensional space, there are multiple solutions to just about every room the player comes across, through multiple routes or the implementation of different gadgetry. This open-ended nature of the game is incredibly freeing, and it encourages further experimentation if a method isn't working.
The greatest achievement of Mark of the Ninja is how much information the game is conveying to the player at any given time without it feeling overwhelming. We have seen so many games with cluttered HUDs packed with information; health gauges, mana gauges, damage indicators, grenade warnings, countdown clocks, enemy and ally names, character's mood... It quickly gets to be too much. Mark of the Ninja uses clever and intuitive methods for displaying all kinds of information like how much noise you're making and what range a guard would have to be in to hear it, levels of light, the range of a dog's sense of smell, what the character can and cannot see and hear... It's all communicated so clearly that at a moment's glance at the screen, the player intuitively absorbs all of this information. And this is on top of the detailed and lovely hand-drawn art.
The story is a bit convoluted and confusing at times, but it communicates enough of the central information well enough to impart a great tone and deliver a few fairly thought-provoking story beats.
Overall, Mark of the Ninja is a painstakingly-well-crafted game that is easy to pick up and play. Everything it sets out to do, it does very well. It does not compromise on any of its ambitions -- rather, it was tested and refined to make sure that every moment of gameplay felt smooth, natural, and fun.
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Todinho
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
Im gonna be honest I wasnt expecting much from Mark of the Ninja the only other game from Klei I knew was Shank,and I really didnt like Shank,so when I heard they were making a 2D stealth game about ninjas I almost laughed thinking it would be just a boring game with a samurai Jack artstyle,well not only was I wrong but Mark of the Ninja turned out to be one of my favorite games of that year and the best 2D stealth game I ever played.
Where do I begin to list all the things this game gets right,well the artstyle for one really fits the game and the near future setting mixed with the traditional japonese themes really benefit from the Samurai Jack treatment it really sets the scene for the game and keeps you in the world,it's also worth noting that this game has one of the few instances where I've seen the art give hints to what's gonna happen in the plot a really cool detail that I only noticed on other playthroughs.
Now the gameplay and level desing in this game really shines,the 2D sidescroller structure of levels is more simple then other stealth games but it also gives the developers more room to make a tighter experience and it also gives the player more control of each room with the game masterfully providing all the information you need in a clear and elegant manner that and the tight controls make every mistake entirely your fault,not only that but the game inspires player creativity thanks to the variety of itens and Masks(including a box and everything XD) you can unlock and the challeges that your tasked to complete in each level changing completely the way you may tackle a level.
Even the story that I wasnt finding all that interesting in the beginning managed to surprise having a great final act/level that made the whole narrative worth it.
IF im honest though it wasnt mechanics,art or story that made me really love the game rather it was the combination of all them together because this game manages to do what no other game I ever played managed to do before and that is making you feel what is like to be a real ninja,when all the elements of the game come together the magic just happens and it's just fantastic.I saw in a interview that Jeff Agala and the team had the goal to give the player a little of the feeling of being a ninja,well after playing the game multiple times I can say that they masterfully succeeded.
3 word review-Ninjas at their best
Where do I begin to list all the things this game gets right,well the artstyle for one really fits the game and the near future setting mixed with the traditional japonese themes really benefit from the Samurai Jack treatment it really sets the scene for the game and keeps you in the world,it's also worth noting that this game has one of the few instances where I've seen the art give hints to what's gonna happen in the plot a really cool detail that I only noticed on other playthroughs.
Now the gameplay and level desing in this game really shines,the 2D sidescroller structure of levels is more simple then other stealth games but it also gives the developers more room to make a tighter experience and it also gives the player more control of each room with the game masterfully providing all the information you need in a clear and elegant manner that and the tight controls make every mistake entirely your fault,not only that but the game inspires player creativity thanks to the variety of itens and Masks(including a box and everything XD) you can unlock and the challeges that your tasked to complete in each level changing completely the way you may tackle a level.
Even the story that I wasnt finding all that interesting in the beginning managed to surprise having a great final act/level that made the whole narrative worth it.
IF im honest though it wasnt mechanics,art or story that made me really love the game rather it was the combination of all them together because this game manages to do what no other game I ever played managed to do before and that is making you feel what is like to be a real ninja,when all the elements of the game come together the magic just happens and it's just fantastic.I saw in a interview that Jeff Agala and the team had the goal to give the player a little of the feeling of being a ninja,well after playing the game multiple times I can say that they masterfully succeeded.
3 word review-Ninjas at their best
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Roy42
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
A game that started pretty fantastically and steadily got worse, Mark of the Ninja was one of the most disappointing things I've played in recent memory.
The visuals and audio are slick and polished and the core gameplay works fine; surfacing information, et cetera. The problem it runs into is the same problem that any game that tries to give player agency whilst telling a focused narrative does: no matter what you do, the game needs to carry on regardless.
So we end up with a scenario where I go through every single level without raising any alarms or killing anyone — a play style that the game tells you is completely valid — and yet somehow the bad guys are fully aware of my presence and can set up the stealth version of a boss battle that I have no way to get through without killing the person. At once, my preferred method of play is invalidated and I'm thrown out of the narrative.
Okay, fine, I know it's hard to tell a story in a game to begin with, so I can accept a little disconnect when the majority of players would be getting seen a few times and killing most, if not all of the guards they encounter. So I move on, with a new stealth outfit that makes the game almost insultingly easy, and get to an exciting sequence wherein a door needs to take its sweet time opening and I need to avoid detection for a solid minute or so. Goes great, right up until they sound the alarm, even though they haven't found me, and make my hard work the rest of the way avoiding detection utterly pointless.
After another boss battle that has no place existing when I haven't gotten spotted at all in the entire game, the twist happens and (spoiler) you're now against the ninjas. Gasp. Immediately I'm wondering how that's going to work at all, considering ninjas have been shown thus far, through the marked ninja, to have exceptional senses, and trying to sneak past them would hardly seem fun at all. Of course, like the rest of the game, the story and the gameplay have no bearing on each other, and the guards are exactly the same, with one or two new types thrown in that are just as blind as the rest; I guess all ninjas are basically worthless if they don't forfeit their lives to serving the temple and get super tattoos. And then these new guards go and trigger traps on their own, get themselves killed and, because the game wasn't made to handle such a case, it counts as me killing a guard and I have to start over.
And then what? A final sequence where the ninja is suddenly having hallucinations where there was nothing before, culminating in an ending where I'm given an impossible choice, not because the two people I have to choose between killing both mean so much to me, but because I don't know anything about either of them and have no stake in whether either of them lives or dies.
It presents itself as a game that you can play as stealthily as you like, yet for the purpose of its own half-baked narrative, gives you no choice but to do exactly what it wants in several situations. And even from a gameplay standpoint, there are two or three upgrades that let you be more stealthy and ten that give you more ways to kill everyone. I'd be fine with it if the developers/game made it clear that killing people is what they want you to do, but instead they insist on presenting the illusion of choice, like the ending of Final Fantasy 13-2.
The game still looks, sounds and plays well, the challenge levels were incredibly well-designed and the feeling of being a ninja is awesome…it just got less and less fun to play as the game went further on and it seemed like pacifism was considered less and less in the level design process.
The visuals and audio are slick and polished and the core gameplay works fine; surfacing information, et cetera. The problem it runs into is the same problem that any game that tries to give player agency whilst telling a focused narrative does: no matter what you do, the game needs to carry on regardless.
So we end up with a scenario where I go through every single level without raising any alarms or killing anyone — a play style that the game tells you is completely valid — and yet somehow the bad guys are fully aware of my presence and can set up the stealth version of a boss battle that I have no way to get through without killing the person. At once, my preferred method of play is invalidated and I'm thrown out of the narrative.
Okay, fine, I know it's hard to tell a story in a game to begin with, so I can accept a little disconnect when the majority of players would be getting seen a few times and killing most, if not all of the guards they encounter. So I move on, with a new stealth outfit that makes the game almost insultingly easy, and get to an exciting sequence wherein a door needs to take its sweet time opening and I need to avoid detection for a solid minute or so. Goes great, right up until they sound the alarm, even though they haven't found me, and make my hard work the rest of the way avoiding detection utterly pointless.
After another boss battle that has no place existing when I haven't gotten spotted at all in the entire game, the twist happens and (spoiler) you're now against the ninjas. Gasp. Immediately I'm wondering how that's going to work at all, considering ninjas have been shown thus far, through the marked ninja, to have exceptional senses, and trying to sneak past them would hardly seem fun at all. Of course, like the rest of the game, the story and the gameplay have no bearing on each other, and the guards are exactly the same, with one or two new types thrown in that are just as blind as the rest; I guess all ninjas are basically worthless if they don't forfeit their lives to serving the temple and get super tattoos. And then these new guards go and trigger traps on their own, get themselves killed and, because the game wasn't made to handle such a case, it counts as me killing a guard and I have to start over.
And then what? A final sequence where the ninja is suddenly having hallucinations where there was nothing before, culminating in an ending where I'm given an impossible choice, not because the two people I have to choose between killing both mean so much to me, but because I don't know anything about either of them and have no stake in whether either of them lives or dies.
It presents itself as a game that you can play as stealthily as you like, yet for the purpose of its own half-baked narrative, gives you no choice but to do exactly what it wants in several situations. And even from a gameplay standpoint, there are two or three upgrades that let you be more stealthy and ten that give you more ways to kill everyone. I'd be fine with it if the developers/game made it clear that killing people is what they want you to do, but instead they insist on presenting the illusion of choice, like the ending of Final Fantasy 13-2.
The game still looks, sounds and plays well, the challenge levels were incredibly well-designed and the feeling of being a ninja is awesome…it just got less and less fun to play as the game went further on and it seemed like pacifism was considered less and less in the level design process.
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aidopotato
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Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
I was very pleasantly surprised with Mark of the Ninja; despite not being much for stealth games, I picked this up on the strength of the reviews and found that, as with the Arkham outings, stealth was more a matter of choice than necessity.
I immediately took to the aesthetic, loved the mechanics and even on my first playthough, was looking forward to my second.
In the event, I actually didn't enjoy NG+ all that much; I found that the unlocked gadgets robbed much of the tension, while conversely, many of the challenges you had to meet to really 'complete' a level were stupidly difficult. Mechanically it was every bit as tight, but endlessly repeating stages in pursuit of the stars lost appeal quickly (this may not have been such a problem if there wasn't clearly a 'right' way to do each level).
Still, there's no question for me that this was a supremely assured, focussed and fun game to play, and a marked (ahahaha) improvement from 'Shank'.
I immediately took to the aesthetic, loved the mechanics and even on my first playthough, was looking forward to my second.
In the event, I actually didn't enjoy NG+ all that much; I found that the unlocked gadgets robbed much of the tension, while conversely, many of the challenges you had to meet to really 'complete' a level were stupidly difficult. Mechanically it was every bit as tight, but endlessly repeating stages in pursuit of the stars lost appeal quickly (this may not have been such a problem if there wasn't clearly a 'right' way to do each level).
Still, there's no question for me that this was a supremely assured, focussed and fun game to play, and a marked (ahahaha) improvement from 'Shank'.
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Jerome McI
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Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
Mark of the Ninja is for me one of the best stealth games I have ever played. Speaking as someone who doesn't often enjoy them I was pleasantly surprised to discover this game. The 2D perspective, visual representation of sound and Klie Entertainment's art style come together to create a truly enthralling experience. Also I quite enjoyed the way the ending puts your actions throughout the game in a new light.
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Sly Reflex
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
I had it in my steam list of shame. After throwing it out there to my twitter followers what I should play next, Gargette suggested this.
What an absolutely stunning game! I loved every minute of it, especially the little mini missions within levels. It might feel badass to pull people to their deaths or stab them silently from the shadows before discarding their body, but the real enjoyment for me was getting past totally undetected. There's a very specific art to being able to pull mobs from their stations so you can quietly slip past.
The game was actually so good I felt compelled to tweet Klei after I'd finished it, something I'd never felt compelled to do before and have not done since.
What an absolutely stunning game! I loved every minute of it, especially the little mini missions within levels. It might feel badass to pull people to their deaths or stab them silently from the shadows before discarding their body, but the real enjoyment for me was getting past totally undetected. There's a very specific art to being able to pull mobs from their stations so you can quietly slip past.
The game was actually so good I felt compelled to tweet Klei after I'd finished it, something I'd never felt compelled to do before and have not done since.
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
Interesting points on the storyline there actually...
I felt that the story wasn't quite as lacking in telegraphing the whole 'twist' as that, but I can see there is an element of gameplay and story conflict in a few sections if you are going for a 100% stealth run. It didn't feel to me like the story was that much of an integral part of the game, I never really got that invested in it, which I guess you could say is a failing.
I do like a good plot in a game, so I agree that the one here is a little lightweight. If you compare it to a title from around the same time called 'Deadlight' then yeah, it could've done a better job of meshing the story with the game.
(Deadlight and State of Decay would both be decent podcast targets actually...)
I felt that the story wasn't quite as lacking in telegraphing the whole 'twist' as that, but I can see there is an element of gameplay and story conflict in a few sections if you are going for a 100% stealth run. It didn't feel to me like the story was that much of an integral part of the game, I never really got that invested in it, which I guess you could say is a failing.
I do like a good plot in a game, so I agree that the one here is a little lightweight. If you compare it to a title from around the same time called 'Deadlight' then yeah, it could've done a better job of meshing the story with the game.
(Deadlight and State of Decay would both be decent podcast targets actually...)
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Todinho
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
So...I dont wanna sound harsh but i think you're completely wrong in everything you said Roy42 XD,the narrative is not the main focus of the game I agree but it does it's job well if you're interested in hearing it,the side scrolls do a good job fleshing out the backstory and giving you a sense of what's going on something that the main story doesnt provide very well I admit,reguarding the boss fights my memory of them are a little hazy but Im just starting to replay the game again so I'll see how they are but from what I remember they can be done stealthly and they dont feel out place for at all,hell your mission is to kill them after all they are not just gonna sit there and do nothing they are a PMC after all c'mon!
On the ninjas,in reality they are limited because of the AI of the game more than anything else but they still manage to be the most challenging enemies of the game.
On the twist,I think it's actually pretty clever if you pay attention as the art gets more foggier and bizzare the more of the tattoo and toxin you get and as I said if you get all the side scrolls you get a good briefing on the backstory and story of the game so when the final decision was presented I was fully aware of what was happening and what was at stake.
One last thing,you said that the game even limits you in the gameplay when it comes to upgrades and such but you're just considering your point of view and playstyle, the game does allow you to take any aproach it gives all you need for a non-lethal playthrough and more I honestly dont know what more you wanted provided for a non-lethal run the mask of silence alone makes that super easy but they have to provide for the other playstyles as well and you are extremely fragile in the game so they have to give more to work with in direct confrontation.
So yeah I cant really see the problems you're acusing the game of having it's all there I can agree that some conflict exists when it comes to cutscenes but that's about it really.
On the ninjas,in reality they are limited because of the AI of the game more than anything else but they still manage to be the most challenging enemies of the game.
On the twist,I think it's actually pretty clever if you pay attention as the art gets more foggier and bizzare the more of the tattoo and toxin you get and as I said if you get all the side scrolls you get a good briefing on the backstory and story of the game so when the final decision was presented I was fully aware of what was happening and what was at stake.
One last thing,you said that the game even limits you in the gameplay when it comes to upgrades and such but you're just considering your point of view and playstyle, the game does allow you to take any aproach it gives all you need for a non-lethal playthrough and more I honestly dont know what more you wanted provided for a non-lethal run the mask of silence alone makes that super easy but they have to provide for the other playstyles as well and you are extremely fragile in the game so they have to give more to work with in direct confrontation.
So yeah I cant really see the problems you're acusing the game of having it's all there I can agree that some conflict exists when it comes to cutscenes but that's about it really.
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Sly Reflex
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
I can't say I paid much attention to the story. It was the mechanics and the flow of the game I admire.
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Roy42
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
My issue wasn't that you couldn't do the boss fights stealthily, but that they existed at all. I do expect a PMC to do nothing against me when they have zero idea that I exist. I didn't want to "battle" the two bosses, I wanted to assassinate them.
Yes, that is exactly what I said, and that was my point.you said that the game even limits you in the gameplay when it comes to upgrades and such but you're just considering your point of view and playstyle
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Todinho
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
Playing devil's advocate again but they knew you're coming you set a a building on fire to get in that might have put them on alert,and you do assassinate them they dont enter on 1-on-1 fight with you I agree that you enter a boss arena but this still is a assassination even the cutscenes put them like that.
But on the upgrades,the game does give a bunch of options to do a all stealth run they even added the non-lethal takedowns in the dlc or something but they have to give more options to the other types of runs because they need then especially because there's only so much you can do with your plan is to be a ghost.
But on the upgrades,the game does give a bunch of options to do a all stealth run they even added the non-lethal takedowns in the dlc or something but they have to give more options to the other types of runs because they need then especially because there's only so much you can do with your plan is to be a ghost.
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flameboy
Re: This week's podcast: Mark of the Ninja
I finished it last week and really didn't think it was all that. I was much more interested in the modern weapon/warfare vs tradition premise idea (a reason I enjoy the movie Last Samurai) and don't feellike it was really explored. Instead by the end we get a final decision that is as much based on mental health issues which isn't what had compelled me to work through the story. The game does an excellent job of displaying it's stealth options and making the player aware of it's possibilities. However when it comes to actual mechanics I don't think there is anything stellar there just your usual repertoire of cut the lights, use smoke bombs, kill through grates and stab from behind.
My three word review would be style over substance.
My three word review would be style over substance.