Shmups

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » May 21st, 2019, 9:36 pm

On the plus side tonight I’ve reached Day 5 on Neko Navy which I’m really enjoying now. Beautiful happy art & lush music to cleanse the mind while the gameplay attacks the senses - last time I played this I only just scraped Day 3 so I’m slowly getting better albeit without putting in serious time thanks to other games on the go right now. It’s gonna be a fun one to have a bash at frequently I think!

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 3:31 am

hazeredmist wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 9:05 pm
Sky Force Reloaded
I didn't say nowt at the time because we're all different and I thought maybe those games would be a good in, but aye, the sky force games are hot garbage in my opinion.
Awful controls, you have to grind levels to proceed, it's more about levelling up than refining your skills. Difficulty spikes everywhere, I can see them turning people off the genre rather than making them explore it further.

There are a lot of games like that, "shmups for people who don't play them" and while it could be a gateway drug for some, they can also teach you some very bad habits.

Far better just to pick a decent game and play it on easy mode, I'd say.
hazeredmist wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 9:05 pm
It doesn’t feel fun to play at all
hazeredmist wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 9:05 pm
kinda going against what I’ve otherwise been enjoying with shmups
Yes, mate, you're gonna go far.

Glad to see you're getting on with neko navy, that is so much fun. I'm tempted to dive back into that, I wish the pc version got updated with the endless mode that was added to the switch version. They're rarely well balanced but I love playing them.

Speaking of difficulty spikes, that flower boss can be a right pain in the chuff!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 4:07 am

Just to chime in on Sky Force, as well, I totally agree. I did quite enjoy elements of the grind, like working on routes to get 100% destruction and maximise cash but it's pure F2P mobile game in structure, mad spikes as clippa said and progress gated behind hammering the same stages at different difficulties. It's something I find irritating about contemporary Mario games, to be honest, making you go back to get some fiddly medals or stars to unlock the next island or whatever. It kills momentum.

Anger Force Reloaded also follows this Sky Force model and while there's plenty of potential there, the grindy F2P trappings can gtf.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 4:24 am

Does it? I don't remember that, maybe it's been updated since I played, or it's been changed slightly for the switch.
You got to choose random perks in between levels but there wasn't any of this upgrade shop nonsense. At least I don't think there was.
Oh, he chose campaign rather than arcade, maybe it's only in that mode. I'd have to fire it up again to check for sure.

This is pc only but I'm gonna mention it anyway in relation to the skyforce games. I reckon it does a far better job of courting new players than those games do.

The trailer makes it look pretty daunting, but it's not.



Hard to think of any game that wouldn't be instantly improved with the addition of cute cartoon cats, oh, and the shame break system. Daft cats looking degraded with their basques all askew and then a big dog comes on and does a dirty wet all up their backs. "Congratulations!" It could say, "now you are a BIG MAN".

You can choose to use analogue controls, hell, it even lets you play with the mouse if you want, but the digital controls are great, you play each stage individually and you have loads of modifiers you can choose from, cheats you can choose like extra lives and slower bullets and stuff in exchange for score and also handicaps like only having one life and faster bullets and no bombs and stuff to make things harder and earn you more score when you get more confident.

Really fun game that lets you tailor the game to your own skill level, no matter how bad or good you are.

If you enjoy the skyforce games, don't think that you're in the wrong, there are plenty of veteran shmuppers who love them. I'm scared to post on the shmups forum because I think everyone's gonna tell me I'm wrong about everything. I'd hate for that to happen on here.
We're just saying why we don't like the game and giving reasons, there is no right or wrong. I know it goes without saying but it's easy for the vibe of a thread to change like that, isn't it?
I suppose calling the game "hot garbage" doesn't help :oops:

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » May 22nd, 2019, 5:36 am

Interesting. Personally, I've enjoyed what I've played of SFR in terms of movement, level layout and enemy design, but the reason I haven't gone back to it lately is because of all the grinding and resource system. Shmups should be all about pure skill in my opinion, and arbitrary RPG mechanics are a bit contradictory to that.

Basically, I don't mind replaying levels over and over again to get a better score, but I could have done without the in-game marketplace.

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 5:54 am

clippa wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 4:24 am
Does it? I don't remember that, maybe it's been updated since I played, or it's been changed slightly for the switch.
Basically, there are loads of permanent damage upgrades and bomb stock upgrades and other stuff which means you'll be replaying for ages just to increase some DMG% which I find antithetical to the fundamental process of improving your actual skill.

And yeah, I don't mean to be a dick about it, either. I enjoyed SFA on the Switch and got about two thirds through before I peeled away the layer which made it all fall apart. It's a decent way to get new players into the genre and from there, something like Strikers 1945 II isn't a big leap in gameplay or skill or mechanics. It's just a leap towards something much better.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 6:06 am

In different news, GUS did this live on stage at Stunfest this past weekend.

https://youtu.be/WTsxAjC6sMY

After his pretty amazing but ultimately comfortable Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Ultra clear, he attempted the much harder 1.01 mode to close the event...

He looks absolutely wrecked at the end of it. There were moments when I literally gasped at his play. Real TAS-tier madness at times. I massively recommend it.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » May 22nd, 2019, 6:15 am

Stanshall wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 6:06 am
I massively recommend it.
I forgot to reply at the time, but I did watch the first video you posted in its entirety and thought it was incredible, despite the commentators best efforts to undermine everything. :P

Will be checking this one when I have the time for sure.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 6:52 am

Here's that run with plasmo and jaimers undermining it, if you prefer :D - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/426896367?t=2h57m18s

Disappointing lack of hulk hogan-esque victory posing at the end there. I usually find it a bit boring watching other people play games but I'll stick it in my bookmarks for when I'm at a loose end.

Here's the Blue Revolver run that had Danbo commentating, I liked hearing him talking about the game on that episode of stgweekly so I might watch that one first - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/426445494?t=2h43m23s

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Michiel K
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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » May 22nd, 2019, 7:04 am

Alex79uk wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 5:23 am
I've been playing Gigawing a lot the last couple of days, I really like it. Shame it never got a modern console release, it seems to have only been ported to the DC from the arcade original.
Giga Wing is absolutely bonkers and crazy fun. Great choice! Who's your character?
Stanshall wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 4:07 am
Just to chime in on Sky Force, as well, I totally agree. I did quite enjoy elements of the grind, like working on routes to get 100% destruction and maximise cash but it's pure F2P mobile game in structure, mad spikes as clippa said and progress gated behind hammering the same stages at different difficulties.
That sounds pretty awful and completely antithetical to the core principles of the genre.

Also, definitely going to watch that Futari 1.5 Ultra clear when I have some time. Stage 1 in that mode completely annihilates me.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » May 22nd, 2019, 7:13 am

Stanshall wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 4:07 am
it's pure F2P mobile game in structure
Now I didn't want to say this as I have already alluded to a prejudice I have (hey we're not all perfect) with mobile games and games with mobile roots, but this is exactly the feeling I get from all I've detailed about my experiences in a nutshell. I think I'm just going to knock this on the head for now - I scanned and every level wants me to earn what looks like a stupid amount of medals to unlock the content, and until I've done these challenges I'm left doing the same boring levels over and over. Fuck that shit. The only thing missing is a little pop-up saying "would you like to PAY SOME MONEY to avoid the bullshit you're going through right now? Get your credit card out son!". Nah. It just feels snidey, and being able to tell the game WILL be more fun down the line behind this egregious wall it's put up in front of me just annoys me further.
clippa wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 4:24 am
If you enjoy the skyforce games, don't think that you're in the wrong, there are plenty of veteran shmuppers who love them. I'm scared to post on the shmups forum because I think everyone's gonna tell me I'm wrong about everything. I'd hate for that to happen on here.
We're just saying why we don't like the game and giving reasons, there is no right or wrong. I know it goes without saying but it's easy for the vibe of a thread to change like that, isn't it?
I suppose calling the game "hot garbage" doesn't help :oops:
Mate don't worry about this :D Different opinions are fun and more than welcome here in my experience, games wise anyway. Suits loves Sky Force Reloaded and that's brilliant, I took the recommendation and read reviews, I went in with open eyes and it's on me and me alone if I don't like it. I love games which others think are shite. It's all fair in love and war. If that's not the case on the shmups forum, that's their problem. Who gives a shit what someone else thinks about your opinion anyway, as long as you're doing no harm with it.

I'm not going to delete the game just yet as I'm waiting for Suits to come and tear me a new one so I end up compelled to try again... We'll see :twisted:

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » May 22nd, 2019, 7:15 am

Dumb question:

When things are getting tight and precision is needed, do you guys prefer to use the d-pad for its immediacy or the analogue stick for its smooth diagonals? On a controller, obviously. I know "arcade stick" is the true answer to everything.

I've been playing with the stick so far, but I've heard the Mushi commentators talk about the d-pad, so I dunno.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 7:36 am

hazeredmist wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:13 am
Mate don't worry about this
I need a keyring version of you for everyday living :D
I used to post on a forum where if you said you didn't like a game, the people that did like it would take it as a personal insult and gang up on you.
This place is much nicer, but I'm still a bit cautious of upsetting anyone, like I say, it's all just personal opinion, I think I might be guilty of being a bit too blunt at times, I forget to sugar coat things since I don't need or expect that myself, would much rather everyone just be honest. It's much easier. Especially about bloody games, I mean, christ, if you're that emotionally invested in a bloody game you've got bigger problems than someone disagreeing with you.

Despite everything I said, I am now watching that blue revolver replay. I really like Danbo, he seems like a good lad.
How anyone can play with everyone watching like that, I'll never know. I even get stage fright when I've got shadowplay turned on!

Ksubzero, I just use the analogue stick if I'm playing on a 360 pad for obvious reasons. I'm not too good with a d-pad for shmups, thumbs are a bit naff in general, but I'd need to train mine up. Have you tried one of those saturn style jobs? It's like a d-pad but on a rocker so it's much easier to hit the diagonals, they're like a half way house between an analogue stick and a regular d-pad.
I think I play best on an arcade stick, then keyboard, then analogue stick, then d-pad. I should really keep practising with a d-pad and see if I can git gud. I bought one of those saturn pads but I couldn't be arsed to learn it. I'm a bit stuck in my ways now, I think.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 7:37 am

Edit: Thread moved on a bit!

This 1.01 run is sensational. I have got to the first boss once on Ultra mode, it's unreal to see that stage turned inside out.

Nice little interview with Gus at the end of the first run. He seems like such a sweet, vulnerable guy. Dare I say...savant-like? Glad to see him getting excited and the crowd giving him a great response.

Edit: clippa linked this but no harm in reposting it:

http://www.twitch.tv/os_yom/v/426896367?sr=a&t=10643s

Again, sweet little interview at the end but he looks absolutely shattered this time. Must require incredible concentration and stress. I can't imagine.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 7:40 am

Stanshall wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:37 am
He seems like such a sweet, vulnerable guy. Dare I say...savant-like?
Haha. I wonder how much of that is down to the accent and the questioning eyebrows but I know what you mean. He's just so huggable!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 7:52 am

His accent is amazing. You ever seen his Futari Ultra counter stop run on STG Weekly?

It's pretty much as iconic as it gets in the microscopic niche of import shmup counter stop commentary. It's an amazing run with some insightful stuff on the Japanese scene and how secretive players are within that community, but it's the various interjections from Gus which make it, for me.

His advice on going 'full shmup' where he starts to quote Bukowski is great but my favourite bit is when his mum comes in and starts going apeshit about him not booking his tutors yet.

https://youtu.be/ZZeRl3NXsUQ

I'd say this is essential viewing for those of us who enjoy seeing a 2x2 pixel hit box nudge through hundreds of pink dots.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » May 22nd, 2019, 7:53 am

clippa wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:36 am
hazeredmist wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:13 am
Mate don't worry about this
I need a keyring version of you for everyday living :D
I used to post on a forum where if you said you didn't like a game, the people that did like it would take it as a personal insult and gang up on you.
This place is much nicer, but I'm still a bit cautious of upsetting anyone, like I say, it's all just personal opinion, I think I might be guilty of being a bit too blunt at times, I forget to sugar coat things since I don't need or expect that myself, would much rather everyone just be honest. It's much easier. Especially about bloody games, I mean, christ, if you're that emotionally invested in a bloody game you've got bigger problems than someone disagreeing with you.
:lol:

I agree with everything you've said here. That forum you refer to, it sounds like it was populated by a bunch of empty tools. I can relate to the worry - I have had anxiety issues myself and have experienced that pointless need for acceptance, moving past that is a real eye-opener. I prefer the honesty angle too, and I don't really see what the point is in being offended if thoughts differ on games. That's what makes it interesting! Much better than us all sitting round a campfire in frilly dresses group hugging over how wonderful something is, before lying together cuddling and smiling, but not having sex. Give me a faux-ruck any day. Maybe that says something about me though :mrgreen:

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » May 22nd, 2019, 8:06 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:15 am
Dumb question:

When things are getting tight and precision is needed, do you guys prefer to use the d-pad for its immediacy or the analogue stick for its smooth diagonals? On a controller, obviously. I know "arcade stick" is the true answer to everything.

I've been playing with the stick so far, but I've heard the Mushi commentators talk about the d-pad, so I dunno.
The guy on the right doing the commentary is Jaimers and he uses a Saturn d-pad (with some success!), so that probably explains some of the pad chat.

I use the analogue stick by default and I'm quite happy tap-tap-tapping left and right with that. Unfortunately, both of my 360 pads have stick drift (in different directions, and it only happens on certain games!) so I've ordered a new one (as in 'brand new'). This has meant giving the d-pad a good go over the past week or so and it's actually better in some respects. I don't think the 360 d-pad is a particularly fine specimen but I've been playing DaiOuJou and been improving quite steadily since I've switched to d-pad which is a bit weird. Maybe it's the way forward...

I've never really got into the stick but I'm going to mod mine with a Seimitsu stick and see how that goes. It's meant to be snappier, with a 'shorter throw', as they say. I seem to remember that clippa has the Hori RAP Pro EX-SE which is meant to be the best you can get for shmups, and it's incredibly hard to find now and was never released over here and also looks like a literal angel descended from heaven.

Image

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 8:10 am

hazeredmist wrote:
May 22nd, 2019, 7:53 am
I can relate to the worry - I have had anxiety issues myself and have experienced that pointless need for acceptance, moving past that is a real eye-opener.
There was one guy I used to feel really sorry for, he was like the forum whipping boy and I used to stick up for him, every day he'd log in and say his piece and get kicked around but he just kept coming back.

He said he was suffering from health problems towards the end and I mean it might not have had anything to do with it, but it made me think that logging in there every day, being in that toxic environment and just being shot down even if he was making sense, I mean it's got to take it's toll.

There was one guy that told me it was just their way, once they single someone out, that's it, they'd get bullied until they cracked.
Very weird behaviour, maybe you just put a lot of nerdy guys who were bullied through their school years together like that and they start living out a revenge fantasy.

Yeah, not being accepted for who you are is awful, we're social animals, and if you aren't being accepted socially, I don't think people realise how much harm they're doing, it's very dangerous, but it's just a bit of fun for them.

Can I just again say how lovely everyone is here, even when I say something silly or do a shit joke nobody raps me across the snout :D

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » May 22nd, 2019, 8:12 am

Yeah, if you get a stick, shove an LS-32 in there, that'd be my recommendation, I've tried a few different ones and always found myself going back to that. I've got one in all of my sticks now, they're fab.

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