Shmups

[hazeredmist]

"no time to reply"

Sounds like Stanshall is learning from his buddy Big Shot Mark

[KSubzero1000]

- When did you change from just doing runs and experiencing games, to chasing scores / 1cc? Is 1cc the most important thing to you now?

Well, I can't claim to be at that level yet. I'm still in the experimental phase on all of my CAVE games without a single 1CC under my belt on those, for example.

As to what is the most important thing to me, it really depends on the game's specific design philosophy. When I was playing Resogun, I focused primarily on the game's open-ended endurance mode. With Nex Machina I wanted to get the 1CC with my favorite weapon. With Assault Android Cactus, I never bothered about the scoring in and of itself, but I knew I wanted to get all the S+ ranks under my belt. I've never even finished Ikaruga because I was having too much fun trying to optimize the first chapter's chaining mechanic instead. Ghost Blade's Arcade mode is decent, but Score Attack totally grabbed me. I'm playing Futari at the moment, and even though I am slowly but surely making my way towards the 1CC, there's still an entire layer of scoring optimization even beyond that which I barely understand but would like to dive into at some point.

1CC'ing is definitely the universal gold standard of shmup achievements, which is why it gets mentioned so often. But it's also important to keep in mind that this is a surprisingly varied and complex genre that has a lot of different types of experiences to offer. Even if 1CC isn't your thing, you can still find plenty to enjoy and get lost into.

- How did you "git good" at shmups - just repeat play on or seeking advice / guides? Are there any general tips you can offer on how you progressed from just darting about like a maniac on coke to something more considered and strategic with bullet evasion?

It might be a boring answer, but I think the secret to getting better is to start by choosing one game you really enjoy. The one that you feel the most comfortable with. For me it was Resogun, perhaps for you it'll be Ghost Blade or Shikhondo or Danmaku Unlimited 3. Or maybe even something else! And then I would simply suggest to try and get the most out that one game until you've reached your skill ceiling. Most games have a variety of content catering to different skill levels, such as difficulty modes. Start with the lowest one and work your way up. Set simple goals at first, one step at a time. Alternative / challenge modes can also be surprisingly engaging, so don't brush them off too quickly.

As time goes on, you will become more and more proficient at it and those skills will in all likelihood transfer to more complex and challenging games afterwards.

I don't know that I have that many tips, but I'll say that the most important thing is to try to be in control of the situation as much as possible. Randomly darting about the screen in shmups is probably the equivalent of button mashing in Street Fighter. It might get the job done and be a lot of fun at first, but it'll prevent you from learning the game and get better at it. Know where you're flying to and why. As a general rule, it's probably better to die and learn than to squeeze through a challenging part through sheer luck that you won't be able to replicate. Basically, don't panic. Even if a situation looks impossible at first, there's always a way out.

Slooowly dodging bullets sideways little by little can often prevent you from being trapped in a corner later on.

It may sound really silly, but one of the most important things is to know where to look. If you stare at your ship for too long, you will die from a stray bullet sooner or later. Same if you only focus on the faraway enemies. It's difficult to explain, but there's a really sweet spot in-between where you can focus on the incoming bullets while still keeping track of your ship's hitbox. And of course, that varies from game to game.

Also, don't hesitate to temporarily move further up the screen when necessary if you're playing a vertically-oriented game. Some bullet curtains are designed to catch players that only stay at the very bottom of the screen, especially on certain bosses. If a pattern seems undodgeable at first, try positioning yourself differently on the next try.

Watching superplays is a double-edged sword. They can be very entertaining and useful when trying to learn advanced techniques and strategies, but they can also be equally confusing and inscrutable when starting out. As a rule of thumb, I would only recommend watching super high skill videos of games you're either already familiar with or don't plan on playing any time soon.

Lastly, don't underestimate the importance of individual stage select modes for training purposes!


Hope this helps! I'll see if I can think of something else.

[Stanshall]

Got a nice little bump on my stage 1 record since I started mining the old nose gold - 42,691,272

Just got my best on stage 1, too. You pushed me to go all out and get my conk right up the screen. It's so much fun playing this way. Lost all my lives almost immediately on stage 2. Great success! On reflection, looks like the difference is basically the number of little fellas tumbling.

47.47m

Gutted for you with that other screenshot by the way. Yeesh. That's brutal. Couple of pixels in it!

[Stanshall]

- When did you change from just doing runs and experiencing games, to chasing scores / 1cc? Is 1cc the most important thing to you now?

- How did you "git good" at shmups - just repeat play on or seeking advice / guides? Are there any general tips you can offer on how you progressed from just darting about like a maniac on coke to something more considered and strategic with bullet evasion?

This is a great post and really made me think. Some superb advice from KSub but given you know how valuable my own precious time is, I'll hand over to my renowned colleague, Mark_MSX, whose latest shmup podcast episode is on exactly this topic:

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/el ... sQthl0rJn/

It's a really interesting episode and one that I took a lot from. The stick and buttons chat was particularly interesting to me, but your questions and a number of other relevant ones are discussed in some depth. Well recommended.

Personally, I've been getting into shmups for about two years or so. The first one I properly committed to though was Ikaruga. That was probably about a year ago, almost to the day. For the first six months or so, though, I was just keen to play any shmup, credit feed to the end, broaden my experience and just have fun. Partly, I was also chasing the high I got from playing Dodonpachi DaiOuJou at Arcade Club in Bury. I'd never experienced anything like that and for a long time, that was the untouchable gold standard. Until I got a 360 and started playing Cave games, I must be honest, nothing quite scratched that itch.

However, I did start to really spend time with a couple of games. Danmaku Unlimited 3 was one, the closest I had to a bullet hell on the Switch, and I worked on scoring and clearing Easy Mode. It wasn't too tough to clear and so I started to focus on scoring and found it more enjoyable that way. I didn't get especially far with it, though, and I was happy to keep mixing things up.

Ikaruga came out on the Switch and I decided to learn to play it properly after bouncing off a couple of times over the years and, without repeating thought from another thread, it suddenly clicked. It's an odd game, not many of the skills are transferable and it demands to be played in a very very specific way, but that also meant that my progress was very linear and very measurable. I set myself the goal of hitting S Rank on Chapter One and as the weeks went by, I saw my max chain increase, my score increase and my execution tighten up. I became a little obsessive about it, thinking about the route and feeling the muscle memory in my thumbs. I became braver, faster, cleaner and I felt I was making progress.

What at first seemed insurmountable gradually seemed to be within my grasp. KSub then joined me in the chase and that pushed me harder. I have to be honest, it was really fucking stressful in a way because he learned so quickly and caught up with me in seemingly no time at all. One day I was giving a little bit of explanation about my route and the next we were neck and neck. That he eventually beat my high score was galling indeed, but I console myself that I got there first!

S Rank in Ikaruga is probably the hardest thing I've done in any game but it's also one of the most satisfying and rewarding by far. Also, I have to be frank, once I did it, I almost lost all motivation to play the game any more and even now, looking at the icon kind of makes me mentally tired. That's not just me being dramatic. The psychological associations are of being bleary eyed, wrecked, and running through the route in my dreams. I spent about twenty five hours on the game and probably only played past chapter one ten or twenty times. Some people think that's a bit odd and I get it but it's about your own motivation and what you find most stimulating with the game. For me, it wasn't the 1CC or the overall score, really, it was that S Rank, and I don't really know why.

Moving on, Psyvariar Delta and Rolling Gunner scratched are similar itch and I got really into playing the first stage and trying to optimise and attain a similar goal. For Psyvariar, I wanted to get 1000 MAX BUZZ and once I got it (1105), I kind of dropped the game for a while and now I only play it casually. For Rolling Gunner, I got a few casual 1CCs and Novice 1CC is just a damn good blast, but I've never been that driven to 1CC Normal Mode. Instead, I tried to squeeze every last point out of stage one. I guess it kind of became my thing and my way of aiming high without too great a commitment, to be honest. Clippa once called me 'ichimen bancho' elsewhere, which is an ironic nickname for someone who is really good at the first stage of of a shmup but ineffectual beyond that. It was funny because it was so spot on and I love that it's a term. Ichimen means 'front page' which can refer to the first stage but also the cover, ie. the superficial exterior and bancho means a gang leader or boss. It seems to have something of the sense of 'flat track bully' in cricket with a 'weekend warrior' ironic tinge.

Fast-forward then to getting a 360 finally and waiting weeks for Mushihimesama Futari to arrive from Japan. I'd started watching a lot of STG Weekly and I absolutely adored the Futari Ultra episode with Gus:

https://youtu.be/ZZeRl3NXsUQ

The game is fucking dazzling, in my opinion. The music, the colours, the atmosphere (as clippa mentioned above), it's dreamy, intense, psychedelic. Anyway, it's the one which ultimately prompted me to get the 360 and get a stick and so on and so on. I've gone back to various games and I love a lot of shmups but this one seems to really scratch an itch and tickle my brain in new ways. I started playing the first stage for score because I never thought I'd be able to 1CC it but as I practised more and started having a little bit of joy, it just became a pleasure to keep trying and seeing how far I could get. I got a couple of flukey runs into stage 4 and then stage 50 on the edge of my seat, barely breathing, and I found it so exhilarating, I wanted more and more.

Unlike Ikaruga, it hasn't really consumed me in an especially stressful way. I even relegated it to casual 'see how it goes' occasional runs because it was just fun to play, while I gave Dodonpachi DaiOuJou and Ketsui and others a bit more focus, but it was always there and I knew I wanted to get the 1CC and it would require some focus. No false modesty, I'm not naturally any good at these games but I'm persistent and I'm motivated to learn and remember stuff if the game clicks with me. I also found through playing a lot of bullet hell that a lot of what I learned was very transferable and my approaches to various patterns worked across different titles. That meant that even when I wasn't playing Futari, I was still making some kind of progress, especially when I was learning stick. Anyway, I got the 1CC and it was really really satisfying but unlike with Ikaruga, I haven't crashed, it's just made me want to get stuck in even further and play for score now, and play Maniac Mode and try to clear stage one on God Mode and stuff, but that's the game. That's my motivation, the joy of playing that particular game. The 'achievement' in itself means nothing, it's because I really love playing that particular game (as I have with several others to a slightly lesser degree).

Yeah, so that's my entire life story instead of writing some more appraisal reports because fuck it, this is what life is really all about. Having fun and shooting the shit. All the best with it mate, and looking forward to hearing more of your tales in future.

[Stanshall]

And that Ikaruga thread where KSub caught up and overtook me in no time at all:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2195&hilit=Ikaruga

Really fun reading it back, lovely reminiscences and enjoyed the back and forth challenge and sharing of strategies until I remembered that the disrespectful upstart actually ended up with S+ Rank! Honestly, no sense of decorum...

A colossal effort, though. My cap remains doffed.

[hazeredmist]

Ah guys, some amazing insights from you all here, thanks for taking the time!! I’ll address properly with more time but know that I appreciate it.

I have that podcast downloaded now! Focusing on a game is noted - I do need to do this. I’ve got incrementally better at Neko Navy and can do the first 4/5 stages without breaking sweat now, it’s only really 6 that fucks me (the boss in particular). Just got to day 7 for the first time and it took a lot out of me meeting a big boss that seems IMPOSSIBLE with the homing bullet sprays etc but I know it’s big progress even getting there at all. I think I may focus my efforts on this one.

More banter on this tomorrow, I need to calm down and sleep!

Also Stan - appraisals! Christ. I’m delivering many appraisals myself over the next few days in my world, I feel your pain!

[KSubzero1000]

I’ve got incrementally better at Neko Navy and can do the first 4/5 stages without breaking sweat now, it’s only really 6 that fucks me (the boss in particular). Just got to day 7 for the first time and it took a lot out of me meeting a big boss that seems IMPOSSIBLE with the homing bullet sprays etc but I know it’s big progress even getting there at all. I think I may focus my efforts on this one.

Perfectly respectable choice. I don't know if Neko Navy has an individual stage select option, but I would strongly recommend making use of it until you can finish stages 6 and 7 consistently if it has one. You might run the risk of burning yourself out on the first few stages without making any meaningful progress on those that are giving you trouble otherwise. Once you feel comfortable with those, all that'll remain will be to chain them all up in Arcade for that much-coveted 1CC.

[hazeredmist]

Yeah there’s a training mode, I’ve now unlocked up to and including day 6, I think you need to finish the stage to train on it. But improving at day 6 is the only way I’m gonna get anywhere - so many lives lost there on this run I was left with very little for 7.

[Michiel K]

1CC'ing is definitely the universal gold standard of shmup achievements, which is why it gets mentioned so often. But it's also important to keep in mind that this is a surprisingly varied and complex genre that has a lot of different types of experiences to offer. Even if 1CC isn't your thing, you can still find plenty to enjoy and get lost into.

I like the way you think.

[hazeredmist]

I finished Neko Navy!

Spoiler: show

No 1cc but I’m fucking chuffed. Focusing on this has been brilliant, I actually got to Day 7 comfortably within one credit (due to learning how to use bombs properly with the audio cues / circle filling) then some bastard pink homing whooshey missiles got the better of me, lives fell off like dead skin of a sudden but held my nerve and survived, losing more credits but seeing it through.

It feels like a decent reward, the game is not forgiving and you are thrown back to the start forced to learn it, to progress. I usually can’t be arsed with that sort of dynamic in games these days but this genre is doing weird things to me. I love it.

Now I can train on Day 7 to learn how to evade that shit and suss the lot, I will come back and get the 1cc... I really want it now. The game is such pure fun, everything about it really. Playable and happy. Beautiful. Thanks again Clippa for recommending this one. Had a dodgy start with it but it’s now my favourite shmup. And I’m not done with it by any means.

This thread and all you guys participating and sharing experiences, is such a massive part of this, it adds to the enjoyment and it spurs you on, gives you confidence. Here’s to you lot.

Just an Aldi bottle of Cava mind. I’m saving the Sainsbury’s champagne for the 1cc

[hazeredmist]

Yeah I just need practice with it, luckily with Day 7 training available I can go straight to that boss and practice evading the missiles.

Since using more bombs and collecting the gold things that they generate when they kill stuff, my score rocketed and I did get a load more lives. I had 5 lives at one point which seems to be the max?

My last run had those clicks too. You were evading very well though!

It was my mate Si who told me to smash the bombs and that it would change everything, as he'd done this in his game and got himself a lovely 1cc. I recommended the game to him, so it's a bit like Stanshall / Ksub Ikaruga scenario. He's a fellow n00b and has put less time into the game than me!

[hazeredmist]

I don't think I'm ever going to be hitting the highest highs you guys do with scores, I don't think I'm twitch skilled enough but with Neko there has been massive progression as it wasn't that long back I was feeling quite put off by the difficulty and constantly losing credits & being chucked back to the beginning. I'm sure I posted here about it, it felt like a wall I might never scale. It seems obvious to me now that one of the secrets with these games is repetition and learning - again something I thought I was allergic to with current gaming habits, but it was probably Binding of Isaac that made me realise I actually like that when the game grabs me the right way.

[Stanshall]

it wasn't that long back I was feeling quite put off by the difficulty and constantly losing credits & being chucked back to the beginning. I'm sure I posted here about it, it felt like a wall I might never scale.

And you nailed it. Great progress mate. It's great to have that game that gets its hooks into you. You've got momentum now. That's what I really find is the beauty of these games, your effort is always rewarded in the end so long as you're enjoying it. You'll also find that most shmups you make progress with will help you when you play others. I'm sure you'll peg back your mate, as well. You can be the KSub in that scenario!

And on that note...

Slightly worried that your introducing me to the more risky mechanics and blowing my first stage score out of the water is purely a ruse to slow me down and keep that 1cc out of reach. Pretty sure the toasters been looking at me funny as well, need to get that looked into.

I'm going to continue my ruse because I've been really enjoying hammering that first stage of Futari. Here's my route. Starts off well, probably my best run up to the mid boss and then I bottle it a bit in the second half and just want to bank the good start. Gems and enemies left on the table but it's progress. Having a ball with it. Get your conk right up there, that's my motto.

https://youtu.be/z709BNaLMes

[KSubzero1000]

You can be the KSub in that scenario!

This allegory is getting surreal. What the hell am I even reading?


Anyway, progression is slow on my end. I haven't had much time and/or motivation to play a lot these past few days and I'm still stuck on BL Stage 3 in my journey towards the Futari 1CC. I think I need to know when to bomb because some of these patterns are giving me a lot of trouble, especially in the second half (provided I even get that far). The isopods who just inundate the screen with uncancellable bullets usually spell the end of my run. I might have to study some vids.

[Stanshall]

I have some very exciting news to announce. Can you guess what it might be?

Wowzers. You got there with four lives?! If you don't bomb your way through that old crow, I'll be raging on your behalf...Looks like you're going to crush my score!

This allegory is getting surreal. What the hell am I even reading?

Anyway, progression is slow on my end. I haven't had much time and/or motivation to play a lot these past few days and I'm still stuck on BL Stage 3 in my journey towards the Futari 1CC. I think I need to know when to bomb because some of these patterns are giving me a lot of trouble, especially in the second half (provided I even get that far). The isopods who just inundate the screen with uncancellable bullets usually spell the end of my run. I might have to study some vids.

Hehe, you were both the tortoise and the hare in our race.

And yep, second half of stage 3 is the roadblock. Once you get past that, you'll find yourself flying through stage 4 even if it's pretty intense. It's just more predictable and manageable. Stage 5 is pretty tough again but there are very few moments like the overlapping angles and patterns of the last third of stage 3. After the midboss, I basically hold focus shot the entire time and take advantage of the slowdown as much as I possibly can. There's no harm in using two bombs to get you through the chaos to the boss and another two to get you onto stage four. There are plenty of bombs available as you go along, plus an extend at 100m and a 'secret' 1-Up in stage 5, so effectively another six bombs. My mistake is wanting to hold on and dodge through when a bomb is almost always the best option.

[hazeredmist]

No 1cc yet but played more Neko and things are ramping up. My mate has now cleared it on hard mode.

As for me, I got to the Day 6 boss on hard mode, no clear but topped the leaderboard (shame there’s no online leaderboard mind).

Then tried Death for a laugh. Got to Day 4, and managed to activate URA mode at the end of day 1 somehow, which seems to remix the stages. I got this URA mode on 2, 3 and 4 - and on 3, saw a boss I hadn’t seen yet who was NAILS. Absolutely nails! Beat it but lost all my credits and quickly got a game over on Day 4 URA.

Guess what my mate said. “How did you get that?” - he had no idea how to get this URA and hadn’t seen it but he’d seen the achievement listed and was trying to get it himself. Got that one at least then eh? Ha!

[KSubzero1000]

Wow, congrats!

[hazeredmist]

Well done! Some serious achievements going on here. That game looks absolutely rock.

[Michiel K]

I have been playing Futari 1.5 Original for the longest, but never got the 1CC. I feel like I’ve been overtaken, but I’m inspired to actually put some time into Black Label and see if I can repeat your feats.

In other news, I’ve managed to save some lunch money to buy Rolling Gunner in the Switch eShop and I’ve enjoyed dipping my toes in quite a bit. I played a credit of Original mode and 2 of Casual mode. So far, the dynamics and play mechanics are highly reminiscent of Death Smiles, in that you max out a score item counter to 1000, before you go into a powered up mode to nab the bigger score items. Fun stuff and pretty accessible.

[hazeredmist]

Jamestown+ is £2.49 on PSN right now, figured it was worth a punt at that price!