Shmups

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 11th, 2019, 10:25 am

I need to know how to get that boss... So it's there when you aren't getting a 1cc? I've finished this game multiple times on Novice, Casual and Normal and have never had anything other than one end boss followed by credits... Hmm.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 11th, 2019, 10:39 am

hazeredmist wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:25 am
I need to know how to get that boss... So it's there when you aren't getting a 1cc? I've finished this game multiple times on Novice, Casual and Normal and have never had anything other than one end boss followed by credits... Hmm.
Yeah, I had a quick lookie and it's surprisingly difficult to find any concrete info as to what the TLB requirements are in this game... The only two pieces of info I could find is that he might not appear on Novice at all and that his trigger might be rank related.

Maybe try playing on Casual while maximizing your rank and see how that goes?


EDIT: Man, ever since I started looking up anything shmup-related, I keep stumbling upon clippa's bazillion different accounts all over the internet. This time it was him complaining to the RG devs on twitter and demanding a Steam release. :lol:

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 11th, 2019, 10:47 am

...but I'm sure Ratso said he got to the extra boss on the first difficulty level which is Novice? If he got that far on one credit on Casual on his first go, the man is an absolute God at shmups, however much he may deny it :D

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 11th, 2019, 10:49 am

hazeredmist wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:47 am
...but I'm sure Ratso said he got to the extra boss on the first difficulty level which is Novice?
In that case, forget I said anything! :oops:

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 11th, 2019, 10:52 am

I could be wrong though mate! Info on this stuff online is very sparse indeed. Which is cool in a way, in other ways it makes me sad Rolling Gunner isn't more widely played despite it's reception...

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 11th, 2019, 10:55 am

hazeredmist wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:24 am
Fixed
:lol: Not at all, some TLB's have strange, arbitrary requirements. You're probably right, it'll just be if you get there without continuing then it'll show up, or as owly says, you might have to play on casual and above for him to even bother showing his face.
KSubzero1000 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:39 am
EDIT: Man, ever since I started looking up anything shmup-related, I keep stumbling upon clippa's bazillion different accounts all over the internet. This time it was him complaining to the RG devs on twitter and demanding a Steam release. :lol:
I'm a class act, what can I tell you?

hang on, I just looked that up, "demanding"'s a bit strong! - https://twitter.com/clippa79/status/1085504085795717121

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James
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Re: Shmups

Post by James » July 11th, 2019, 11:22 am

Yeah, I think you're fine with that, clippa.
I sent upwards of a dozen Tweets to TT Games and Warner Bros, asking for LEGO Harry Potter Collection on Xbox One. That's demanding. ;-)

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » July 11th, 2019, 11:29 am

I'm pretty sure TLB in Rolling Gunner only appears on a 1CC, even on Novice.

I say pretty sure, I actually mean I have no idea beyond one run.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » July 11th, 2019, 4:58 pm

“Hellsinker. Steam page spotted, "coming soon" via Henteko Doujin“

https://twitter.com/shmups/status/11413 ... 83808?s=21

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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » July 11th, 2019, 11:02 pm

I’m inching closer on Futari BL Original, but it’s so hard to get consistent runs for me.

Sometimes I feel like the better I become and the more knowledge I gain about the game, the worse I start playing. A false sense of confidence makes me die in parts that I absolutely shouldn’t die in, flying into stuff all nonchalant like. :|

Oh well, this isht takes time and dedication and that is what I'll give to it. Would be great to finally get the 1cc.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 12:49 am

I feel your pain...

Just got to the boss on Rolling Gunner, it’s going well but I notice I’m on my last life and last bomb, I get hit and Continue? flashes up... I swear I hit the boss for half a second more and he was gone, roll end credits. I was a few away from 1cc on Novice. Or at least attending a tea party with “TLB” if that comes next on this. Jesus Christ.

Exhilarating though and I’m pretty sure I can do it now. Like you Michiel, I could point to several stupid life / bomb losses on the run which if erased would have led to a very different end. Hey ho, we will be back!

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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » July 12th, 2019, 7:31 am

Definitely, man! The exhilaration is off the charts!

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 10:10 am

ratsoalbion wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:58 pm
Hellsinker
I started watching the hellsinker STG weekly a few weeks ago and every time the host was trying to get a handle on things and simplify it for the viewers, the expert players were like "yeah, kind of, but there are exceptions". I can't remember exactly but he'd be like "Oh right, so there's proximity scoring, you want to get as close to th-"
"Yes and no, 60% of the time but never on a sunday, oh and you want to be bombing through this bit, you will die instantly otherwise, unless you're playing as this certain character, of course, in which case you want to switch to keyboard and draft out a peace treaty. Remember to use a bigger font size if you're playing as the melee guy"
"Uh-huh"
It was ridiculous. It looks like a game you just have to play. Just feel your way through it.

Apparently this version has got all nice tutorials and everything in english so hopefully it should be a lot more accessible to numbskulls like myself.

I can't help thinking that japan gets a much better IGN than we do - 10 reasons why Hellsinker is a legendary shooter! Doujin game over 10 years ago that still attracts people

unless they copied it almost word for word from some poor saps blog!
Michiel K wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 11:02 pm
Sometimes I feel like the better I become and the more knowledge I gain about the game, the worse I start playing.
Maybe you're playing too well and the rank is bighting you on the backside?
You could take a leaf out of Stanshall's book and play it smart/cowardly, gaming the rank system.
You could always use the wrong type of shot rather than the right one, stay far away from enemies and try not to pick up gems, bombing and even strategically dying when the bullets start to get quick.

Here, that might be a fun speedrun sort of gimmick for when Mark does his streaming thing, you have to 1cc the game with the lowest score possible, trying to avoid enemies without shooting them, avoiding picking up gems and stuff, that miiiiight be fun to watch if you picked the right game.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 11:00 am

Michiel K wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 9:33 pm
I'm thinking about this and I'm starting to lean to the idea that the genre of the 2D shooter will never become as big as some of its fans would want to, because shooting games have actually evolved into the likes of Space Harrier, Ace Combat, Doom, Half-Life, Gears of War, etc.

The 2D shooter, shoot 'em up or SHMUP remains something very archaic, with at the very least one foot deeply rooted in tradition. It can't move on from this and will remain there, whether you love it or hate it.

I'm still trying to work out why 2D platformers are only affected to a much lesser extent, though. Maybe because the 3D platformer hasn't become as succesful and ubiquitous as the 3D shooter?
Just to go back to this if you don't mind, I think it's the combination of two factors:


1. Like you said, 3D platformers have not established themselves in the same way that 3D shooters have. Everybody loves and recognizes the brilliance of 3D Mario, but other games/series in the genre are struggling to be viewed as any sort of competition and/or alternative to it. One of the reasons why 3D Mario is so successful is because they completely nail the feel of the player character's movement across a 3D plane. The player is always in complete control of the situation which makes the difficult sections rarely feel 'cheap', something that other 3D platformers made by less experienced developers are having trouble replicating (Psychonauts, etc...). 2D platformers on the other hand are much more fluid and immediately understandable.


2. 2D platformers are uniquely well-suited to genre crossovers. Their basic premise (of controlling a character moving across a gravity-based 2D plane and overcoming various obstacles, usually towards some sort of pre-determined goal) can be adopted in a multitude of different ways: They can be pure dexterity-based platformers with combat systems based on physical contact (Super Mario World), and they can be full-on action games with combat systems based on more elaborate shooter elements (Metal Slug, Bleed). They can adopt major adventure and/or RPG elements (Super Metroid, Castlevania: SotN), they can opt for a more minimalist presentation style and greater focus on narrative immersion (Limbo), and they can combine the two to great effect (Hollow Knight). And then there is the massive sub-genre of puzzle-platformers that has become so incredibly popular in recent years (Braid, Fez, Thomas Was Alone, etc...).

The same cannot be said for shmups, however. Aside from a handful of games introducing some small puzzle elements or rudimentary grinding mechanics, almost all shmups I can think of are pure undiluted action games through and through. I'm struggling to even imagine what the Super Metroid or Thomas Was Alone shmup equivalents would look and play like.


So yeah, I don't see 2D platformers ever fade into obscurity as long as they continue to offer such a wide variety of different experiences without facing any real competition from their 3D counterparts. Shmups on the other hand are all more or less competing for the same niche and the attention of the same (comparatively small) group of players.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 11:40 am

It's usually the camera that's the main problem in 3d platformers, and I have to say, nintendo don't always get it right. Mario Sunshine instantly spring to mind.
Cat mario takes a sort of 2.5d approach which works far better in my view. Even during the more open 3d bits, there's a much more static camera and a sort of grid along with character shadows so you can jump on heads with a lot more accuracy.

I suppose shmup roguelites could be the offshoot you could compare to metroidvanias and the like, it's just that nobodies made a really decent one yet, unless you include monolith, which I don't because it's clearly a top down shooter. Why do people keep calling it a shmup?!

Steredenn is probably the best traditional shmup roguelite so far, I'd say, despite them fucking up the controls so badly, the game was still great fun to play until you looped the game and realised just how much the controls hold the game back from greatness.

Early access boss rusher the void rains upon her heart is cool but doesn't really do enough with the roguelite format to differentiate it from your standard shmup boss rush mode.

Straimium Immortaly feels a lot more like a dungeon crawler, that was pretty good fun.

There are so many of them and they're pretty much all gash. It's there for the taking though, if someone can make a great shmup roguelite, not only will I be their new best friend, they could end up introducing loads of new players to the genre.

When Mark is on about bringing new players to the genre, I think this is the way to go, water it down a bit, mix it with other things, get some genius dev who's going to make a game where playing for score and limiting yourself to one credit is all taught through osmosis and people end up doing it without thinking.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » July 12th, 2019, 11:43 am

Super Mario Sunshine’s is the last troublesome Nintendo 3D camera that I can remember, and that was seventeen years ago.

The camera in Odyssey is pretty much flawless in my opinion, as was Galaxy’s, near as dammit. They’ve long since nailed this.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 11:50 am

ratsoalbion wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:43 am
Super Mario Sunshine’s is the last troublesome Nintendo 3D camera that I can remember, and that was seventeen years ago.
Yes, and even then, I would argue that Sunshine's camera is still several leagues above those of the majority of non-Nintendo 3D platformers. Then again, I seem to struggle less than most players with so-called "bad cameras"... :roll:

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » July 12th, 2019, 11:51 am

clippa wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:40 am
Steredenn is probably the best traditional shmup roguelite so far, I'd say, despite them fucking up the controls so badly, the game was still great fun to play until you looped the game and realised just how much the controls hold the game back from greatness.
I think this is supposed to be getting discounted on Switch, it's still £11.99 at the moment though. I fancy it. What's wrong with the controls though?

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » July 12th, 2019, 12:04 pm

https://old.reddit.com/r/shmups/comment ... o/dy1wdma/
Steredenn is a really fun roguelite shmup let down by crappy controls.

I'd still definitely recommend getting it but I'd get it on pc instead if I was you. The screenshake is really overdone and it goes off every time you fart, you can turn it off with the launch command -shake0.

There's analogue emulation on the digital controls as well. There is a -rawinput command but they obviously haven't tested this much as it's very buggy, for example if you're moving right and quickly change direction to left, you'll continue moving right.

The digital controls are pretty awful and clearly an afterthought, with or without the raw input command. Diagonal movement is additive which isn't intentional since diagonal movement is normalized when using the analogue stick.

Considering precise, responsive controls are integral to the genre, it's a pretty big thing to get wrong. Sit back with a pad and play with an analogue stick though and you'll have a good time, at least until you get to the second loop and have picked up a few upgrades that make the game harder and you're praying for decent 1:1 digital controls so you can microtap your way between bullets. The devs have said that they're moving on to other things (maybe even none gaming related, but one said that he'd maybe look at the digital controls and try and come up with something a bit better).

I could list some more bad points, but this is getting too long as it is, honestly, for all it's flaws, the game still manages to be brilliant fun. It's the fabled decent shmup roguelite that I've been dreaming of. I've put 33 hours into it, you can play it with the sound down while listening to podcasts or music and it's just good brainless fun.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not gonna sugar coat it, currently you probably won't get far enough for the dodgy controls to be an issue, sit back with a 360 pad and you'll have great fun. It's a really good game, it just could have been really really really good, that's why I'm banging on and being so vocal and seemingly negative. I could go on for ages about all the things the game gets right. Buy it! Treat it more like a casual roguelite than a shmup and you'll have great fun.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » July 12th, 2019, 12:12 pm

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the game was optimized for full 360 degrees analogue input which works perfectly well on an analogue stick but doesn't translate well to an arcade stick due to the latter's four-way digital architecture?

For what it's worth, I played a little bit of the PS4 version (with my DS4), and I didn't have any issue with the controls. But I don't have any arcade stick to compare it to...

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