Shmups

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 »

Does that mean you've completely given up on all those brilliant verts you've got, then? ;)
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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

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KSubzero1000 wrote: August 11th, 2019, 9:57 pm Does that mean you've completely given up on all those brilliant verts you've got, then? ;)
Hell no. Just interested in what’s out there! Been a strange time gaming wise lately, all my (limited) shmupping has been handheld, meaning no arcade stick or laptop. Things have been busy personally. Once I get some routine back that will return, but I’m letting interest take over focus. Which is kinda annoying as I want to finish something again, but the 1cc on Rolling Gunner Novice did push me into somewhat of a lull, I’ve not found true focus in shmups since. Plus the Shield has got In the way lately with retro games (been playing Castle of Illusion this week). I’ve also started Night In The Woods as I love narrative / visual novels too.

We all need a break from time to time, right?

But playing Deathsmiles today reminded me shmups aren’t going anywhere. Just because I covet that and other games due to incessant need to have everything at my disposal doesn’t mean my existing collection is ditched. Far from it. In fact I’ve been working on a pile of shame and shuffling round some games in it, and I intend to be more brutal. Sine Mora for example has now gone, it’s had one too many chances.

I’ve actually decided to leave Black Bird for now which feels cathartic. I have so much to play; there is no justification for it. So what I want to do is draw up some kind of backlog battle plan. Most likely with shmups being played alongside Night in the Woods. They can live in harmony.

*edit* Also, when I say I downloaded Progear, that was on my Shield. Hori’s are a lot better than verts in MAME when you’re on a 5 inch screen. I had a brief go, it seems fun.
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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

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^ Love Progear, it's a belter. Much prefer it to Akai Katana and Deathsmiles, in fact. Simple enough for me to understand, basically!

Also, and I know this sounds like the kind of exaggerated self-deprecating 'woe is me' fiction people post on Twitter, but I've been playing so much DaiOuJou these last few days that when I'm using my phone, I keep scrolling by doing little taps and I have this kind of tap tap tap tap rhythm in my muscle memory. It's not quite enough to drive me insane but it's weird. It reminds me of standing in a river fishing for a few hours and then that night you feel some kind of imaginary water resistance against your legs.

Not really snappy or pithy enough for Twitter, that one, nor amusing in any way. I just thought, you know, if anyone might understand, it's youse guys.
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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

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Excellent phone rant/soapboxing. I can vaguely remember life before them. I used to have an attention span back then. These days, I use mine to watch shmup videos in the bogs at work and to capture my screener replays - to have some tangential link to the thread.

Not picked up any new shmups for a while but I quite like the look of that Grand Brix. Bit Geometry Wars and a bit bullet hell and, what, maybe roguelike elements? Looks like a fun one. Will no doubt be better than Q-Yo Blaster and Alien Cruise, both of which were ill-judged buys. Still, I get a vague sense of 'supporting the scene'...

Also, well excited for ESP.Ra.De! By no means my fave Cave (or top ten) but it'll be brilliant to have any M2 Cave port on the Switch. Please please please let this be a sign that they've cracked that era of hardware. I would so love them to get DOJ on a current gen format. I might have learned stage two by then.
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Re: Shmups

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I've always pronounced it 'esp rah deh' in my head so I'm glad it's actually easier than that. Fingers and toes crossed that they can keep the lights on for a while longer. Maybe the MD Mini and PC Engine Mini will bring the company some healthy dosh to keep ShotTriggers going.

'goo-wang' makes me think of this which you've no doubt already seen, and you'll probably already know what it is:

https://youtu.be/rbts2qTrbAg
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote: August 12th, 2019, 10:25 pm Also, well excited for ESP.Ra.De! By no means my fave Cave (or top ten) but it'll be brilliant to have any M2 Cave port on the Switch. Please please please let this be a sign that they've cracked that era of hardware. I would so love them to get DOJ on a current gen format. I might have learned stage two by then.
I'll second that. Pre-ordered the PS4 version for now.

Also, put me on Team 'Esprayde' & 'Gu-Wan-Geh'.
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Re: Shmups

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I managed to get consistent with my Dodonpachi DaiOuJou route and pulled off a full chain while in Replay Mode. It doesn't automatically save each run so there's always a bit of extra pressure when trying to record! I nearly drop the chain a dozen times but that's just the way it goes in DOJ, the margins are painfully fine.

I've got to say, this is the toughest thing I've ever done in a game. Ikaruga was big for me because it was the first time I felt that total all-consuming drive to learn a shmup to any degree, and it put me through some real despair, especially with KSub breathing down my neck and I can't describe the relief. Futari BL 1CC was great, even though I probably have got one of the lowest ever 1CC scores, total coward tactics but I don't care, I did it!

This was different, though. I've been playing it on and off since I first tried it at Arcade Club and it blew my mind and immediately got me into shmups, chasing that first DOJ feeling. I've tried to learn it several times and quit because it was just too impenetrable and the chains seemed impossible but this time around, I've ended up being pretty calm about it where Futari and Ikaruga stressed me out enormously. Once I started making some little bits of progress, I realised that even if it takes me six months, I feel like I can do it. Anyway, onto stage two...


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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Made me real happy to see that pop up in my feed. Looks dope. :P

I obviously can't comment too much about the technicalities of the run, but I know how much time and energy you've been pouring into this. Congratulations my friend!


This is probably one of very few remaining god tier shmups I don't currently have in my library. Looks amazing, and if the rest of the series is any indication, let's hope M2 takes pity on us all sooner rather than later!
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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

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Well done Stanshall! Brilliant.
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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That sounds like the kind of thing that might get patched in sooner or later.

Anyway, can't you use a third-party program to rebind them manually?
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Re: Shmups

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Thanks, gents. Really buzzing about this one.

(Impossibly navel-gazing post to follow).

And clip, you raise a really interesting point and it's something I've thought about intermittently without the slightest hint of shame or regret. It's a debate I'm well into, though, and genuinely pleased you mentioned it. Honestly, I still see myself as a total upstart/noob with the genre, no real idea of the etiquette or history or protocol or anything. I'm still just playing how I'm motivated to do so and how I enjoy it - but I don't necessarily think that 'as long as I'm havin fun' means I'm getting the most out of it. There are layers it's possible to miss even if you're enjoying the game, and you may well actively restrict your enjoyment and appreciation through pure ignorance. If someone said they just play Dark Souls for the bosses and sprint through the areas and skip NPC quests and lore notes, I totally get that they might enjoy that aspect but they're also undeniably missing a large chunk of what makes the game.

I remember a year or so back, probably longer, you said that credit feeding is not really the way to experience these games and it took me a good while to really understand why from my own experience. I had a great time credit feeding. I loved the spectacle and the music and the overwhelming action but - without question - it's not anywhere near as fun or rewarding as playing on one credit. There's no learning, there's no progress. And that's the stuff I've found I really really buzz off with these games whether or not I can 1CC them (and in almost all cases, I can't.)

Am I therefore missing out by copying (and a little bit of adapting) others' routes? I've got to say, for me, no - at least at this stage. I kind of enjoy working out systems and routes and I quite liked the puzzle of the hyper timings in Rolling Gunner, seeing my scores rocket with the most minute tweaks. I've enjoyed learning where and when to best shred gems in Futari (even though I've put that aside for the moment). Ultimately, though, that's the least interesting and rewarding aspect of these games, to my tastes. It's the very first step, but the learning and the execution, especially, are so much more satisfying for me. In terms of how much I enjoy shmups, it's about 5% working out the route, 25% learning the nuances and 70% execution and optimisation. That's the way it is, for me. I feel like I know something of what it's like to experiment and plot a route but I don't enjoy that as much as I love trying to execute at a high level.

So, fair enough, that's what I enjoy the most - but does copying routes in fact devalue the 'achievement'? That's a harder question for me to answer but I get that it may well do in other people's eyes, and that's totally fair. It's an aspect of STGs that happens to not matter to me but it may well be important in the larger community, or even just to the individual, and I'm glad you said it, honestly. I remember hearing Gus talk about some elite Japanese Futari Ultra player who shared routes with him and then went mental and quit shmups because Gus shared the route with someone else. Now, I totally get the breach of trust aspect there but, actually, I don't really get the secrecy in the first place. Obviously, I place a lot less value on the route discovery than the execution (maybe because the latter is so much more crucial to me, as a new player). There's probably a larger philosophical question here about the nature of creativity and 'standing on the shoulders of giants' and so on, but I've always been one for refining and refining and trying to elevate rather than tearing things up and starting again.

Anyway, I'm gettin' into some high-falutin' bullshit round about now but the question sparked a lot of thoughts I've had about shmups over the last year or so, and it motivated me to put a few feelings into words for the first time. As I said in feedback for the SF4 issue of C&R, I love the practice practice practice and when the time comes to execute, that's what makes it worthwhile for me. I don't really need to work out the combo for myself. It's about the moment of feeling I've finally reached a goal.

Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts and prefs on this one, and cheers if you made it this far!
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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

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Stanshall wrote: August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm [...]
Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts and prefs on this one
Okay, I don't think I'll be able to go into as much detail, but here's my take on it. I think videos and established strategies are definitely playing a very important role - but it should be about learning the underlying principles and mechanics, not blindly copying the exact inputs. Whenever I watch a superplay in preparation for one of my runs, I don't simply memorize what the other player is doing, instead I try to understand why they're doing it. Some elements (like secrets or fixed collectibles) will obviously need to be committed to memory sooner or later, but the actual flow and pathway throughout the stage is something that I really have to carve out for myself.

The reason is pretty simple - no two runs are ever exactly the same, and so mastery goes hand in hand with knowledge and understanding for me, because any type of dry memorization will instantly fall apart as soon as the circumstances end up changing ever so slightly. I need to know what I'm doing so that I can learn from my inevitable mistakes.

I'm also not particularly good at dealing with strict and complex button input (like fixed combo chains) in general, which is why I've never had much success with competitive fighting games, for example. They always feel rather artificial to me and my brain has trouble processing the inherent delayed input buffering and the like. I'm much happier dealing with a layered encounter design centered around a simple and responsive set of core mechanics.

I'm not sure if I should keep bringing this up or not, but really, my current obsession with various shmups comes from a very similar place as my longstanding fascination with Mercs. And the way I use videos is basically the same for both of those. I love to watch world records in order to assess the lay of the land before diving headfirst into it, but any actual achievement is going to be the result of a deeply personal learning process that demands perseverance and the semi-constant refinement of strategies in order to accommodate my own play style / shortcomings.


...It's getting insanely late so I hope this is at least somewhat coherent! :lol:


PS:
Stanshall wrote: August 13th, 2019, 8:09 pm In terms of how much I enjoy shmups, it's about 5% working out the route, 25% learning the nuances and 70% execution and optimisation.
Interesting. My execution can be pretty coarse at times, so I would say it would probably look something like "20% route planning, 30% nuances and 50% execution / optimization" for me.
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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote: August 14th, 2019, 1:20 am Route planning? Do you actually plan a route or is that just a phrase?
Well... yeah. Of course I plan a route. :)

I have pretty much the entire BWRP enemy and bullet patterns mapped out in my head right now. That's what gets me through it. When I play, I tend to focus equal parts on overcoming the current pattern as well as positioning myself properly in order to deal with the upcoming one as best as possible. Anticipation is what gets me through the really thorny parts.

I reckon I could probably pick up on Ghost Blade, Nex Machina, or Stage 1 of Ikaruga again without investing too much time into it. All that data has been meticulously stored in a folder, and that folder isn't going anywhere, that's for certain.

There are moments when I have to try and squeeze through a tight bullet curtain as the direct consequence of a previous mistake, but I certainly don't go in planning on "yanking my stick about in panic". What the hell? :lol:

I have a pretty good memory overall, so that probably helps.
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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote: August 14th, 2019, 6:40 am Oh fuck off with your potato headed self, no you do not. It's all subconscious, innit?
Cerebral =/= subconscious. Planning doesn't have to be physical, you know?

clippa wrote: August 14th, 2019, 6:40 am You and Stanshall don't all sit around with a whiskey
No, and that's probably exactly why we can actually memorize any data to begin with. :roll:
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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote: August 14th, 2019, 7:00 am I just can't imagine planning a route though, is that code for "monkey see, monkey do"? Watching a replay and letting it drip into your subconscious?
...No, it's "code" for:
KSubzero1000 wrote: August 14th, 2019, 12:42 am Whenever I watch a superplay in preparation for one of my runs, I don't simply memorize what the other player is doing, instead I try to understand why they're doing it. Some elements (like secrets or fixed collectibles) will obviously need to be committed to memory sooner or later, but the actual flow and pathway throughout the stage is something that I really have to carve out for myself.

Like I tried to explain yesterday, it's precisely not just a matter of blindly copying what happens in the replay. I would suggest letting people's posts drip into your subconscious instead. :)
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Re: Shmups

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clippa wrote: August 14th, 2019, 7:00 am My big warty rectum prolapse score still stands, I've decided, you've more or less admitted to cheating.
I haven't watched any video in weeks and I've instead dedicated the lion's share of my free time towards fine-tuning my runs of this game so that you and I can have the friendly competition that you suggested. Do you have any idea how insulting you can be sometimes?

Seriously, if you're back to your blatant trolling and shitposting, then just forget about it. I have no time for this nonsense.
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Re: Shmups

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I hate it when my parents argue. You love each other! Sort of. Don't split up and end up sitting me down to tell me it's not my fault when it probably is really a bit. Go for a nice meal, have average sex and realise you're too old to go out and find a new beau. You may not be happy, but it's close enough, right? Come on! :mrgreen:

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Re: Shmups

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This thread has taken a turn for the worst.

On the odd occasion I stick my head in, you’re all bloody fighting, or Clippa is apologising 🤪🤪.
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Re: Shmups

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On the subject of strats or route planning, I'm very much on the side of planning absolutely nothing, other than subconsciously learning from my mistakes or remembering where enemies are etc. I can't sit and study other people's runs, I've tried. It impresses me, much like watching speedrunning at GamesDoneQuick does, but replicating what others do to the frame isn't something that grabs me. It will definitely hold me back from "gitting gud" for real, but I play these games for 100% fun. When something stops being fun and becomes like a job, I will lose interest. When obsession kicks in and I get my little 1cc on the weakest difficulty level, I know it's all me and I like that. You guys would probably be in tears if you saw me actually playing one of these games!

Its really interesting hearing how others get their enjoyment out of these games, I totally respect all the ways people play - as long as you're satisfied that's what matters. I think my style is partly circumstantial in that I don't get a lot of time and when I do have free time, I'm usually drained of energy from the day and not able to invest every part of my concentration. It's one of the reasons I love shmups. Whatever the mood or inclination, energy levels you have, you can hammer it and obsess or you can have a quick go, and still have some fun. Which is what it's all about.
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Re: Shmups

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hazeredmist wrote: August 14th, 2019, 8:11 am Come on! :mrgreen:
It's fine, I probably overreacted in retrospect.

I just don't like being accused of lying and cheating for no reason whatsoever and I find it pretty frustrating to try to carefully explain something only to be met with silly non sequiturs in rapid succession. I wanted to engage with Stan and found myself dragged into a dumb argument with clippa instead. My mistake.

No harm done, talk to you gentlemen later.

Suits wrote: August 14th, 2019, 8:17 am This thread has taken a turn for the worst.

On the odd occasion I stick my head in, you’re all bloody fighting, or Clippa is apologising 🤪🤪.
I'm really sorry if that's the impression you've gotten. This thread is actually pretty nice overall, I promise. :|
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