Shmups

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 6:45 am

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 6:40 am
Oh fuck off with your potato headed self, no you do not. It's all subconscious, innit?
Cerebral =/= subconscious. Planning doesn't have to be physical, you know?

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 6:40 am
You and Stanshall don't all sit around with a whiskey
No, and that's probably exactly why we can actually memorize any data to begin with. :roll:

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 7:00 am

Haha, fair play.
I just can't imagine planning a route though, is that code for "monkey see, monkey do"? Watching a replay and letting it drip into your subconscious?
I have to learn through my own mistakes, nothing sticks otherwise.
That's not fair, is it?
If you're all dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants then what does that make me? A puked on maggot lying in a ditch?
My big warty rectum prolapse score still stands, I've decided, you've more or less admitted to cheating.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 7:06 am

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 7:00 am
I just can't imagine planning a route though, is that code for "monkey see, monkey do"? Watching a replay and letting it drip into your subconscious?
...No, it's "code" for:
KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 12:42 am
Whenever I watch a superplay in preparation for one of my runs, I don't simply memorize what the other player is doing, instead I try to understand why they're doing it. Some elements (like secrets or fixed collectibles) will obviously need to be committed to memory sooner or later, but the actual flow and pathway throughout the stage is something that I really have to carve out for myself.

Like I tried to explain yesterday, it's precisely not just a matter of blindly copying what happens in the replay. I would suggest letting people's posts drip into your subconscious instead. :)

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 7:11 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 12:42 am
Whenever I watch a superplay in preparation for one of my runs, I don't simply memorize what the other player is doing, instead I try to understand why they're doing it. Some elements (like secrets or fixed collectibles) will obviously need to be committed to memory sooner or later, but the actual flow and pathway throughout the stage is something that I really have to carve out for myself.
Oh, aye, I read that. Didn't believe a fucking word of it.
Whenever I inject performance enhancing drugs before one of my runs, I'm not just a hideous replica of satan himself, I actually make a face that looks a bit like me.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 7:26 am

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 7:00 am
My big warty rectum prolapse score still stands, I've decided, you've more or less admitted to cheating.
I haven't watched any video in weeks and I've instead dedicated the lion's share of my free time towards fine-tuning my runs of this game so that you and I can have the friendly competition that you suggested. Do you have any idea how insulting you can be sometimes?

Seriously, if you're back to your blatant trolling and shitposting, then just forget about it. I have no time for this nonsense.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 7:36 am

Hehe, I love it when you pull your pressed trousers on and go "Right! That's enough of that. We've all had a laugh"
I don't know where the line is with you, but I always seem to cross it.
Like I say, just dig me as hard as you can in the ribs whenever I get on your tits.
I nearly posted "too soon?" like you were only just recently compared to satan and it was still raw :lol:

It's totally a legit strategy, if I have a problem with it, then it's at my end.
I respect you fully and give you maximum cuddles!

Trolling and shitposting, people used to say that to me on other forums. I really don't do that, it's not intentional. I mean, shitposting, my posts are shit, by and large, aye, but I don't set out to upset people. I think it's just an unfortunate side effect of my shite posting :S

You're more sensitive than you let on, I think. We're banging heads like a couple of blokey blokes and it's not our true nature?

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 14th, 2019, 8:11 am

I hate it when my parents argue. You love each other! Sort of. Don't split up and end up sitting me down to tell me it's not my fault when it probably is really a bit. Go for a nice meal, have average sex and realise you're too old to go out and find a new beau. You may not be happy, but it's close enough, right? Come on! :mrgreen:

Image

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Suits
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Re: Shmups

Post by Suits » August 14th, 2019, 8:17 am

This thread has taken a turn for the worst.

On the odd occasion I stick my head in, you’re all bloody fighting, or Clippa is apologising 🤪🤪.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 14th, 2019, 8:22 am

On the subject of strats or route planning, I'm very much on the side of planning absolutely nothing, other than subconsciously learning from my mistakes or remembering where enemies are etc. I can't sit and study other people's runs, I've tried. It impresses me, much like watching speedrunning at GamesDoneQuick does, but replicating what others do to the frame isn't something that grabs me. It will definitely hold me back from "gitting gud" for real, but I play these games for 100% fun. When something stops being fun and becomes like a job, I will lose interest. When obsession kicks in and I get my little 1cc on the weakest difficulty level, I know it's all me and I like that. You guys would probably be in tears if you saw me actually playing one of these games!

Its really interesting hearing how others get their enjoyment out of these games, I totally respect all the ways people play - as long as you're satisfied that's what matters. I think my style is partly circumstantial in that I don't get a lot of time and when I do have free time, I'm usually drained of energy from the day and not able to invest every part of my concentration. It's one of the reasons I love shmups. Whatever the mood or inclination, energy levels you have, you can hammer it and obsess or you can have a quick go, and still have some fun. Which is what it's all about.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 8:22 am

I have average sex for no man!
Owly, every time you flap off, I feel responsible. If you don't come back this instant and call me a massive prick, I will have average sex with you.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 8:27 am

hazeredmist wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:11 am
Come on! :mrgreen:
It's fine, I probably overreacted in retrospect.

I just don't like being accused of lying and cheating for no reason whatsoever and I find it pretty frustrating to try to carefully explain something only to be met with silly non sequiturs in rapid succession. I wanted to engage with Stan and found myself dragged into a dumb argument with clippa instead. My mistake.

No harm done, talk to you gentlemen later.

Suits wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:17 am
This thread has taken a turn for the worst.

On the odd occasion I stick my head in, you’re all bloody fighting, or Clippa is apologising 🤪🤪.
I'm really sorry if that's the impression you've gotten. This thread is actually pretty nice overall, I promise. :|

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 14th, 2019, 8:34 am

I honestly thought clippa was royally joshing saying that, in fact I'd bet my right leg on it. And the left one. But it's the internet and you can't see expressions and body language in a post. The banter probably needs to be dialed back a bit to accommodate everyone's tastes, that's all.

@Suits: It's understandable to get that impression if you end up on the wrong page of the thread when you're passing through... it's a fantastic discussion that's brought joy to millions (well five or so of us). Sometimes the wheels come off, but we always stop at a decent garage and put them back on :owl:

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 14th, 2019, 8:38 am

Interesting stuff all round, cheers. Lots for me to think about. (Edit: Haha. I started my reply at about 7am so just seen the intermittent, I'm skipping it!)

I'd say a couple of things to 'defend' my approach (without being defensive) are that, first of all, knowing a route in any of these games is a hell of a long way from actually pulling it off - at least for me. That's what I mean about 5% learning where the bees are or where the big enemies appear or which side the wave of popcorn comes from or when you need to point blank stuff before it comes on screen. That knowledge comes pretty quickly and while there's typically a tiny bit of randomness in Cave games with spawning extra enemies, you're basically getting the same fixed challenge every time. So my conclusion is to respond to that with the best possible strategy and execution I can.

That takes me fucking ages! I am not inherently good at these games but I'm persistent and I really enjoy them. I think the execution is the hardest thing by a mile, but it's also the most exciting and satisfying and I really enjoy the tiny incremental progress. (As an aside, while Dark Souls is probably still my favourite game, I find many of the bosses stressful and they bring me little satisfaction beyond relief, I enormously prefer the incremental progress of tackling the areas in-between.) Another thing I really like is that throughout the hundreds of attempts, you do develop a feel for the game and its mechanics which goes way beyond simply repeating someone else's inputs. For some people, maybe they could watch 'how it's done' and within an hour they've managed to copy it. Bingo. That's not the case for me, though, and to be honest, I doubt that's the case for most people even with a videographic memory. You have to develop the feel more than anything else. Once you have that, you're able to adapt on a micro level, both to dodge bullets and deal with the randomness and also to adapt to your mistakes and variations and so on. Remember me going on about scrolling my phone with a tap tap tap tap tap tap rhythm? I realised it's not tap dodging, it's the rhythm of the bloody chain meter, tapping before it breaks...Brrrrr! :D

I totally agree with KSub's point, therefore, that using an established route is fundamentally about learning why and developing that feel for yourself, rather than producing a Xerox run. And as I say, I think that both developing that feel and understanding the nuances are absolutely essential even if you ultimately produce a similar-looking run. Every single little section and transition needs your fingerprints all over it or it won't happen. Without being critical of the chaining guide, nor exaggerating my creative input, there are a couple of bits where I felt it could be done better or where I learned something subtle along the way that I tried to optimise, and I definitely improved on those sections. The very last section with the two big ships and the three remaining bees is probably the best example. I didn't like the idea of collecting the bees and then destroying the enemies because you're missing out on the extra combo bonus points of the last two ships. It's just not satisfying even if the points are negligible. After umpteen failed attempts I asked for advice on the shmups forum, nobody replied, so I had to figure it out. Was that 'discovery' extra satisfying? Hmm. Not really, nowhere near as much as pulling it off.

That said, painting-by-numbers is a great way to describe that process and I think it's absolutely fair. I might add a bit of shading or use slightly different tones but the overall picture is very similar. What's different, really, is that I've learned a lot, relatively quickly, about how to use light and colour in finer detail and I can then apply that elsewhere. Also, you raised the question of whether DOJ is such a strict game that a free form approach is even possible. Again, I think painting-by-numbers is a perfect analogy because no matter who we're talking about, Prometheus, Jaimers, or the WR guys from Japan, the outlines are very similar, but there are more creative flourishes and the details are more refined. Basically, they have the feel and understanding and skill to optimise beyond what I can hope to do.

In short, though, I do think that DOJ is one of the strictest Cave games and that a route is absolutely essential if you're collecting all the bees and trying to chain the stage. It seems designed rather prescriptively, so whatever route you try to take is mostly going to fall into a very well-worn groove. Maybe that's part of the appeal for me in that it's easier therefore to experience what it's like to play fairly near the highest level (on stage one!). I'm obviously not saying I'm at the highest level but I now know a little bit about what it feels like playing at that level of intensity (again, on stage one!). "Jaimers91? Fuck that shit! I'm Jaimers92!" Am I interested in copying routes in Futari or Espgaluda 2 or Ketsui or Rolling Gunner or Progear? Nah, no chance. I'm happy to freestyle it and just enjoy the ride, for the most part, and learn from playing and experimenting. But for DOJ, Ikaruga, or probably the original DDP? I think there's a way to approach them which ultimately depends on learning to execute a strict plan, and the execution is by some distance the important part.

Also, from a purely practical point of view, I feel like I want to make the best use of my time playing it (see what I mean about refine refine refine?) and while that might sound like an entirely joyless approach, I've found that I get the most out of these games with a goal in mind. And if I've decided on an end point, I'd rather head straight for it and bang my head against all the obstacles in the way than pootle around until it comes to me. I know that's probably a major personality thing more than anything else! Maybe a sense of the fleeting nature of time and fading dexterity? Maybe the institutionalisation of the 'outcome-focused' workplace? Maybe it's the reassuring structure of the shmup continuum where time in = progress, unlike the constant firefighting and treading water at work where the same cyclical issues arise and every step forward is a step back in another direction. Maybe I'm talking bollocks.

Anyway, I know this is incredibly self-indulgent but I do find the topic really interesting and yours and KSub's insights got me thinking more. I'm also fascinated about these games and why they've gripped me so much. On some level, though, is all this just convoluted delusional justification for robbing someone's route and standing on the shoulders of giants? God's honest truth? As I said in the first place, not in the slightest! :D

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 8:46 am

I want to engage with stan too, but he's a cold fish and holds me at arms length just like you do! :lol:
Sorry if I crossed the line, ksub, I don't know what to say. I didn't think that was an argument. I thought we were just exploring the subject in a heightened, fun, antler clashing style.
I don't want "clippa apologising" to become a meme so I'll just leave it there.

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 14th, 2019, 8:49 am

Suits wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:17 am
This thread has taken a turn for the worst.

On the odd occasion I stick my head in, you’re all bloody fighting, or Clippa is apologising 🤪🤪.
Mate, it could be worse. You could have seen the 5000 words I wrote about why shmups are essentially about capturing the nuance of light and shade in a colouring book! :D

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Re: Shmups

Post by Suits » August 14th, 2019, 8:51 am

Stanshall wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:49 am
Mate, it could be worse. You could have seen the 5000 words I wrote about why shmups are essentially about capturing the nuance of light and shade in a colouring book! :D
Sounds like a dissertation 😄.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 14th, 2019, 9:00 am

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:46 am
I want to engage with stan too, but he's a cold fish and holds me at arms length just like you do! :lol:
Stan did engage with you, see his latest (excellent) post!
yours and KSub's
(my insights here have gone unnoticed in the noise. But I'm cool with that for the greater good of the thread getting back on track ;) )

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 14th, 2019, 9:17 am

I'll co-sign pretty much everything Stan just wrote. I think the two of us are approaching these games in a very similar fashion.

clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:46 am
I didn't think that was an argument.
It's all right, man. The jokes aren't inherently a problem. But sometimes it feels like my point is falling on deaf ears and I find that really frustrating to deal with.

We're cool.

hazeredmist wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 9:00 am
my insights here have gone unnoticed in the noise.
YOLO strat: duly noted!

In all seriousness: Clearly you're having fun and are accomplishing your goals, so to each his own. If it works, it works. :)

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 14th, 2019, 9:28 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 9:17 am
It's all right, man. The jokes aren't inherently a problem. But sometimes it feels like my point is falling on deaf ears and I find that really frustrating to deal with.
We're cool.
Yah, I'll take that into account. I get too caught up in bouncing the ball back. You're taking your time lining up a strategic shot and I'm just spannering it into the gallery for a cheap laugh.
Stanshall wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:49 am
Without being critical of the chaining guide, nor exaggerating my creative input
Ooohoo, you're good, cold fish, you're good, but it won't wash with me. You cheated, and for that you must pay the price.
Stanshall wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:49 am
Maybe the institutionalisation of the 'outcome-focused' workplace?
Oh god, he's gone full "vilifying the poor", channel 5 on my ass.
There was one on the other day "too fat to be a gypsy" or something, there was this wobbly family trying to cut their calorie intake and one of them was eating a "summer fruits" trifle out of the see-through plastic bowl it came in and she says "that's one of my five a day, that"
Five trifles a day keeps Rupert Murdoch away.

Ah shit, I forgot what I was gonna say now. I'll have to read the whole fucking thing again tomorrow. Dear christ!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 14th, 2019, 9:55 am

Haha, absolutely @Suits. Maybe I'll compile my thoughts and write the last word on ethics and morality in Cave shmups.
clippa wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 8:46 am
I want to engage with stan too, but he's a cold fish and holds me at arms length just like you do! :lol:
Haha! To be honest, I am a bit distant online. It's probably down to one particularly mad experience. Maybe I mentioned it on here before.

To be brief, I was once threatened with decapitation by a genuine sword-wielding ex-Marine when I was in China after we'd been 'having a laugh' on some expat forum - I had thought. It ended fine when he was deported to face charges back home for assaulting people with a samurai sword (!) after he also battered the Chinese guy who'd sorted out his visa when he asked him to pay (!). I found all this out after he turned up at my work and I told him to get to fuck (!). Had I known, I would have been hiding in the air vents. Anyway, I definitely learned to take a step back online afterwards, so please don't take offence. It's just what I'm like these days.

Edit: "Users browsing: 17 guests". Who knows which one of those deranged bastards might turn up to Arcade Club with a samurai sword next time I'm on DOJ, know what I mean? :lol:

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