Disappointed with this month’s PS+ games, particularly Steep, which I was ready to order when it released but reviews were very average and it was clear I’d be better off sticking with the old SSX games. It’s not only average, but frustrating and I’m struggling to find any fun here whatsoever. I played a demo or beta of Portal Knights and more than had my fill with that, and Fallen Legion just isn’t for me.

I did finally finish Lego Marvel Super Heroes on PS4, having started it with my son way back in 2015. It is very formulaic and repetitive, but I guess a middle aged man playing solo probably wasn’t the target audience. Glad I can stop looking at it on my games shelf now though! I’ve moved on to Dishonored (with a similar goal in mind). Not sure yet if I’ll stick with it - I just don’t really like how it does combat or stealth... and I don’t like stealth full stop! But someone once bought it for me for Christmas so I owe it at least some perseverance.

Suits wrote: January 6th, 2019, 10:29 am

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 8:32 am I snapped a couple of quick pictures.

Cool man, so I guess that’s your process for connecting anything analogue to your digital panels then is it ??

What’s your biggest issue with that set up, any compatibility issues or anything ??

Then I suspect you have that going through an Elgato or something similar to record/stream is it ??

My cable management is horrendous.

I have every single device sans the PS4 and PC (because they have their own streaming capability and require their own 4k/HDR HDMIs - 2.1 I think?) connected through an AverMedia Live Gamer Pro Lite or something. Been super, super reliable for me.

I have all my component consoles running through a converter to HDMI - but not an upscaler. So they display in 480p or whatever that default is, and most games are perfectly acceptable for me. Any GC game with progressive scan just looks... Great. And luckily, nearly all the must-have games do. The ones that don't are hit and miss - Killer7 looks great because of the chunky cell shading... But a Midway compilation I used to have not only looked washed out and crap, but had weird input lag too. No idea why. It may be a problem with the ports themselves.

As for the PS2, your mileage may vary. I've heard that the quality of the HD compatibility varies WIDELY depending on hardware, both the console and the cables. I used to have official Sony cables, and I need to get those again. The cheapo one from China eBay makes everything look a bit washout out and jaggy. A friend of mine who's big into console mods also claims that nearly all Slim models and some early Fat models have terrible HD compatibility. But I've only ever had the Fatty.

There is, however, ONE game that is the bane of my existence: Mega Man X Collection. Both the PS2 and GC versions are lazy, sloppy, stupid ports that run the menus at 480i (which most TVs can handle), but has the actual GAMES at 240p (which most TVs can't). And Mega Man Anniversary Collection, which came out two years earlier, doesn't have this issue. It's stupid, and no other game I've played has this issue. And it blows, because it has the superior Saturn/PS1 version of MMX3 and a version of MMX6 with the excellent licensed intro music (which the newest release now lacks).

But yeah. Other than a *minor* step down in image quality (which I don't mind because the ringing sound from tube TVs drives me MENTAL), analog to digital is not a bad way to game at all. Except for that ONE game, because Capcom released a game in 2006(!) that uses a doofy resolution nothing supports. And now the new compilation has the shitty SNES OST for MMX3 and massive input lag... Ugh. Capcom just hates Mega Man, it seems.

KSubzero1000 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 10:44 am HOW?

1 & 2 should be straight forward enough, as they were GameCube games originally.

Corruption, I don’t know but you can easily use the Joy Con’s in TV mode no problem - handheld, I don’t know.

Suits wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 am 1 & 2 should be straight forward enough, as they were GameCube games originally.

True in theory. Good luck getting anyone except you and me to buy games with mandatory tank controls in 2019, however.

Suits wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 am Corruption, I don’t know but you can easily use the Joy Con’s in TV mode no problem - handheld, I don’t know.

...Wait, do the Joy Cons have 1:1 Wiimote functionality? Because that would directly contradict everything I've heard about the console. As far as I understand it, the Joy Cons use an Accelerometer/Gyroscope which lacks that extra bit of accuracy provided by a triangulation point, whereas the Wiimote has true IR-based pointer functionality.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a single game on Switch that allows for the same type of precision aiming as the Wii, is there?


I'm really not trying to be mean about this, buddy. I just don't want people to cling on to false hope, you know?

It doesn’t use IR the same way the Wii does (one of the joycons has a camera but it’s pointing the wrong way) but there have been a few games that have mimicked the setup - most notably the Resident Evil Revelations games.

EDIT: Okami too has great controls for the paintbrush.

Think of it like the aiming in Skyward Sword - it used the accelerometer rather than the pointer controls.

I’d imagine that would be much heftier to port over, though.

Craig wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:51 am It doesn’t use IR the same way the Wii does (one of the joycons has a camera but it’s pointing the wrong way) but there have been a few games that have mimicked the setup - most notably the Resident Evil Revelations games.

EDIT: Okami too has great controls for the paintbrush.

Think of it like the aiming in Skyward Sword - it used the accelerometer rather than the pointer controls.

I’d imagine that would be much heftier to port over, though.

Okay, I looked it up:


Revelations 2 is a controller-based game, and the Switch version allows you to aim with the stick while adding a gyro aiming functionality as a little extra on top of it. This is no 1:1 pointer aiming, just look at the input delay whenever he switches to gyro. And the same goes for Okami. The base game was designed around standard controller input, so the motion control functionality was built on top of it and can therefore be removed or tweaked. The same isn't true of Metroid Prime 3, which constantly relies on pixel-perfect snap aim, especially during boss fights.

Plus keep in mind that MP3 uses motion controls for a lot more than just pointer aiming. The entire game was designed around the Wii's unique features and I just can't see it being transposed onto the Switch UI in practice.


PS: And for the record, I sincerely hope I'm wrong and that there is an obvious solution to this.

KSubzero1000 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 10:22 am

Wait, wait I've got it.....is this KSubzero1000 playing Prey: Mooncrash?

Ha, pretty much!

Yeah, i thought that the Joy Con aim control was robust enough to hold up - it's good enough for what I've used it for thus far but I've not used it on anything like Resident Evil - Revelations.

**Although, I do have that game and some Joy Cons, so maybe I should try it for myself.

KSubzero1000 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 12:03 pm Plus keep in mind that MP3 uses motion controls for a lot more than just pointer aiming. The entire game was designed around the Wii's unique features and I just can't see it being transposed onto the Switch UI in practice.

You may be right, but it depends on how they went about doing those motion controls. For instance, with Twilight Princess, you swing the remote to swing the sword -- from a programming perspective (and I'm an industrial programmer, I've never done video games, so my jargon may be different), all they've done is changed code that reads, "If [A button]==1 then Output(SwingSword)==1." Pretty simple as far as motion control ports go - the Wii had lots of games done like this.

But the pointer motion is not fundamentally so different. Okami, for instance, uses the motion plane for its drawing mechanics. To make that work, they've probably superimposed a sort of invisible grid and used a pattern recognition algorithm. For instance, if a specific line on the screen needs to be drawn, the game will have "output" values on specific spots on the grid, and code that reads something like:

"If [InputRegion(1+2+3...1200)]/[TotalPlaneArea] >= .900 then Output(PaintSlash) == 1"

In layman's terms, if 90% of the output "slash here" image matches what the player has filled in the digital plane, then execute the slash action.

MP3 is likely no different. The TV screen and the motion bar exist as two different planes, and the console probably compares the two for its motion. Your TV displays a 4:3 image, and the sensor bar detects a 4:3 digital plane - the two are superimposed on one another, and input values are compared with output values.

SO. In order to make that work (and with the small targets, as you mentioned) the digital plane can still be there - only your analog cursor swims around an invisible box superimposed with a crosshair on the screen. As for the tight aiming? Targeting system, fam. If the game knows where on the screen it's boss's weakpoint is being displayed, it should not be at all difficult to write something like "If [CursorPosition] - [WeakPointPosition] == x, then [" Snap lock-on cursor to Parameter(Y)].

Any Wii game that doesn't use MotionPlus *usually* works on a 2D plane with additional I/O in the controller. The Switch Dongles and the Wii Remote both have low-ish resolution gyros for "tilt". So I think a port would not only be feasible, it would actually be pretty damned simple, software environments permitting.

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 am I have every single device sans the PS4 and PC (because they have their own streaming capability and require their own 4k/HDR HDMIs - 2.1 I think?) connected through an AverMedia Live Gamer Pro Lite or something. Been super, super reliable for me.

I think you mean HDCP 2.2, which is the new standard for 4k and HDR pass through in HDMI. This was what was causing the PSVR controversy a while ago, the ports on the first series of break out box were just normal HDMI - so there was no 4K or HDR pass through. The new ones are 2.2 so its nota problem.

I'm running an Onkyo receiver, which has 7 HDMI inputs the first three being HDCP 2.2's, so effectively my Xbox-X and my PS4-P are in the first two, then my Switch and Wii U are in the 4th & 5th ports (this is really handy for avoiding any upscaling or visual artefacts - if those things bother you) The system software then allows you to move around ports electronically so they all line up with no gaps in the menus and controller - very handy for OCD and neatness.

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 amI have all my component consoles running through a converter to HDMI - but not an upscaler. So they display in 480p or whatever that default is, and most games are perfectly acceptable for me. Any GC game with progressive scan just looks... Great. And luckily, nearly all the must-have games do. The ones that don't are hit and miss - Killer7 looks great because of the chunky cell shading... But a Midway compilation I used to have not only looked washed out and crap, but had weird input lag too. No idea why. It may be a problem with the ports themselves.

A lot of these digital convertors (so I've heard) can run very convoluted conversion software, as well as your TV, which is what is likely, or what often, causes the input lag. There's some changes you can make TV side that may improve this but generally it won't cure it - when it comes to things like lag, to really deal with it properly, you'll need to spend some cash on a Framemeister or something.

But generally, this isn't something I know too much about, as like I say - I don't have this problem.

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 am As for the PS2, your mileage may vary. I've heard that the quality of the HD compatibility varies WIDELY depending on hardware, both the console and the cables. I used to have official Sony cables, and I need to get those again. The cheapo one from China eBay makes everything look a bit washout out and jaggy. A friend of mine who's big into console mods also claims that nearly all Slim models and some early Fat models have terrible HD compatibility. But I've only ever had the Fatty.

Never buy cheap cables, the wire is usually super thin and the shielding minimum at best. OEM are good, I have a few OEM SCART cables and the perform admirably.

I use Retro Gaming Cables for all my stuff, they are affordable and are made with all of our concerns in mind, so they are perfect. I've never had any issue with any of their cables.

I use them for my Mega Drive/Master System, Saturn, Dreamcast (when they make more), SNES, GameCube and PS2 - all RGB.

Regards the PS2, over here in PAL territories our video output between models is pretty much identical, so hearing that the NTSC video quality varies is surprising.

For this reason alone, I have the old school fatty on a vertical stand for the classic PS stuff.

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 11:29 am But yeah. Other than a *minor* step down in image quality (which I don't mind because the ringing sound from tube TVs drives me MENTAL), analog to digital is not a bad way to game at all.

Precisely that, anyway to play an old game nowadays as long as its enjoyable is fine.

Just bear in mind, not all CRT's were created equal, they don't all ring and buzz .

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 1:57 pm You may be right, but it depends on how they went about doing those motion controls.[...]

Interesting stuff!

As a layman, I do however think there is a massive difference between Okami and MP3 due to their native platforms of origin. Okami was always meant to be playable with a controller, so of course the motion control functionality would have much looser built-in restrictions. MP3's motion controls are also much more complex and precise than the ones in Twilight Princess which, again, was always meant to be playable with a controller from the very beginning. Like you said, the Wii did have tons of games done like this, but I really don't think MP3 is one of them.

And if I understand your targeting system argument correctly, that would be the kind of bullet magnetism seen in a lot of console shooters like Halo to accommodate the lower fidelity input method, right? Something like this could work in theory, but I have a hard time imagining a game as precise as MP3 not losing a lot from that transition.

Magical_Isopod wrote: January 6th, 2019, 1:57 pm Any Wii game that doesn't use MotionPlus *usually* works on a 2D plane with additional I/O in the controller. The Switch Dongles and the Wii Remote both have low-ish resolution gyros for "tilt". So I think a port would not only be feasible, it would actually be pretty damned simple, software environments permitting.

Well okay, but then I would like to see a single example of a native motion-control-based but pre-MotionPlus Wii game being ported onto the Switch without losing any functionality. Not Okami or RE Revelations that were designed around controller input at first. No, something like Super Mario Galaxy. Or a rail shooter like Sin and Punishment that relies on pixel-perfect aiming without bullet magnetism or aim assist. Until then, I'll remain skeptical that MP3 would work as intended by being transposed onto the Switch technology. I stand to be corrected.

I may be remembering way wrong, but I thought Metroid Prime had a fairly leinient lock on system? It’s much faster paced than the likes of Okami though, so I totally understand what you mean by fundamental designs - I have similar thoughts about people asking for Skyward Sword with regular controls. When a game is built so vividly around a certain control scheme it’s tough to extract it and not lose something in the process.

Craig wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:52 pm I may be remembering way wrong, but I thought Metroid Prime had a fairly leinient lock on system?

Metroid Prime 1 and 2 were designed for the GameCube, and do have a tight lock on system. You never have to manually aim at the enemies during combat in the base versions of those games, which is why the added free aim of the Wii versions is basically a comfortable bonus. It makes the game more fluid, but the underlying structure is still intact and doesn't depend on it.

*BUT*

Metroid Prime 3 Corruption is a different beast entirely which was built from the ground up on the notion of making the best possible use of the Wii's motion control functionality:



Just look at the way the free aim is being implemented this time around. The Ridley boss for example is a classic arcade lightgun section that requires super-precise and time-sensitive input that I just can't imagine working with imprecise gyro controls and superimposed bullet magnetism. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the technology at play here, but this doesn't seem like a 1:1 fit whatsoever to me.

If IR Wiimote aiming could be replicated onto the Switch without too much trouble, where are all the Switch rail shooters? Sin and Punishment, RE Chronicles, House of the Dead, etc...?

Then there's all the other stuff, like the context sensitive actions, the new grappling system, the aiming puzzles, etc... It's a motion-based Wii game through and through.

Craig wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:52 pm I have similar thoughts about people asking for Skyward Sword with regular controls. When a game is built so vividly around a certain control scheme it’s tough to extract it and not lose something in the process.

Exactly. It's the same debate as with Skyward Sword or SMG.

Consider my chips - pissed on.

Well, last night I died twice in succession on Metroid Prime, going after the Thermal Visor in Phendrana Drifts.

It was getting back out of the research lab that was getting me pasted - lost a good few hours.

I called it a night at the second death.

Just done some chores, wife is asleep with the lad on the sofa, so I'm tucked away in the office back to it.

Of course, a nights sleep, less rushed approach and sharper fingers meant that I did it first time and got back out to save point D.

The thing is - I can't remember any of this. None of it.

I played it a long long time ago, with mates and more often than I wasn't back then - was very likely, very baked.

I'm enjoying this immensely.

I was never going to be able to replay VIII in time for the podcast, and I've never really liked IX, so I've decided to plough on with my first ever playthrough of Final Fantasy X on Vita to try to get it finished before the show. Enjoying it so far, I'm only 12 hours in. There's a lot to talk about, it's far from perfect!

Celeste

I have been waiting forever for it to go on sale on Switch but then it pops up free on Games With Gold. It is very very good!. I am glad to be playing it on my xbox pad rather than handheld on the switch. I would say I am near the end of Chapter 2. Died 70 times in Chapter 1.

DomsBeard wrote: January 7th, 2019, 11:16 am Celeste

I am glad to be playing it on my xbox pad rather than handheld on the switch.

I played Celeste entirely in handheld mode on my Switch when it came out.

While I’ll agree, playing that like is never my first choice for a lot of games, in this instance, not once did I feel like I needed a traditional pad.

I think that’s testament to how well the game is made to be honest.

KSubzero1000 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 3:04 pm Exactly. It's the same debate as with Skyward Sword or SMG.

Hmm OK, Skyward Sword maybe, but Mario Galaxy could so easily be played without the motion control. You only really need it for collecting the star bits and the odd bit of aiming Mario towards things. I think it could easily be adapted without too much fuss, and would be a much more enjoyable (to me) game for it. I just hate motion controls so much, it really hampered my enjoyment on the Wii. That's not to say I hated all motion controlled games, I enjoyed Resi 4, but I just didn't think Galaxy was enhanced by the forced motion at all.