Shmups

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Alex79uk
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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » August 16th, 2019, 6:58 am

hazeredmist wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 5:17 pm
It’s on!

Owly, clips & stan can watch over us like proud parents at a sports day
OK so my first effort got to the stage 3 boss as well. Managed a pitiful 3.4 million. That was also on easy.

I then tried 'true' mode. Oh dear.
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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 16th, 2019, 7:04 am

Yeah, I recall you mentioning it - I did buy Danmaku 2 in the Steam sale for a ludicrously cheap price on your recommendation, I will be playing that at some point!

Glad to see 3 isn't just me... From all the shmups I've been playing, I thought going back to Danmaku 3 might mean I get further and use the skills I've "built up" etc... Nah. I did get my best score by a million or so though, but after dying on the Stage 3 boss I had used up all my lives / continues on the Stage 4 boss. Which is fucking ridiculous with mad patterns flying all over the place and feels like a real difficulty spike.

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Michiel K
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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » August 16th, 2019, 7:04 am

The Vasara Collection was activated on my Switch last night and I had a quick go on the first game and Vasara Timeless. Wow, these games are no joke in the difficulty department. They're like Psikyo shooters for people who have mastered those games. Is it me or are the hitboxes of the player characters just way too big for the amount and density of projectiles that fly around?

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Alex79uk
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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » August 16th, 2019, 7:16 am

Just had a look at them, and I love the style. Seems pointless me getting them at this point, though.

Here's a question - in arcade games, why is it called Tate mode when you flip the screen sideways?

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 16th, 2019, 7:18 am

Ooh - me me! I can answer this! It's because tate meant vertical in Japanese

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 16th, 2019, 7:58 am

Sat down to learn DOJ stage 2 this morning but you're expected to start the stage with a couple of hypers or you can't do certain chains, so I would need to go through stage one every time and nail it to do that. Pretty frustrating scenario, if I'm honest. There is no training mode, just stage select. It's obviously OK if you're using save states and the like but I don't have that option on the 360. Hmm. After about five thousand attempts of stage one over the last week or two, I was ready to leave that for a little while. I know this is the only option for the Japanese arcade players but, you know. I wish DOJ Extra had the superb training mode of the 360 Futari port.

This is the consequence of painting by numbers.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 16th, 2019, 10:51 am

Blimey, that was quick, there's your deathsmiles deal, hazeredmist - https://www.humblebundle.com/store/deathsmiles

Humble are having a Japan themed sale so have a sniff around if you're after more bargains, most of the shmups seemed to be on page 2 when I looked - https://www.humblebundle.com/store/prom ... apan-sale/
Eschatos is a goody - https://www.humblebundle.com/store/eschatos

Yeah, what haze said, and yoko means horizontal.
Yoko Ono means horizontal small field.
Tate is pronounced "tah-tay" like a scottish man going "here Yoko, show us yer tah-tays"
I always just assumed that tate was short for ro-tate, like you had to rotate the monitor/telly. I'm gonna say rotahtay from now on. Catherine Rotahtay.

Stanshall, could you not set up mame on your hacked 360, you save scumming copymonkey?

Had a go on doj the other day. I didn't get far and my chains were laughable.
So, respect to you.

"Hmm, what was that?"

I said, respecayooormnmnmn.

Can't stop thinking about that guy that came at you brandishing his chopper. Had he just gone full banana potty or had you been acting the giddy goat?
Did you think back and go "aaah, it was probably that, he probably read that into that and yeah, right, I can see how maybe, fair enough, slice to meet you, to meet you, slice, yup, yupyupyupyup"
Did you call him a save scumming copymonkey, for example?

You said it was some expat forum, I can only assume that you were talking about eastenders and the biscuits you missed. It couldn't have gotten that heated.
Aaaaah, was it about football? Did you push 'er?

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 16th, 2019, 1:54 pm

Yo clip. I've seen that well earned 'respect' so don't be editing it out now. I would do some MAME through the 360 but it's surprisingly crap with emulation, lots of emu stuff got dropped apparently because it's such hard work. OG XB is supposed to be much better. I think I'll just have to get on with it like one of those Japanese arcade champs because that's my destiny, anyway.

As for that sword fella (and thanks all for the kind words):
Spoiler: show
As I say, he'd arrived in China having fled charges of attacking people back home with a sword. He had also attacked a number of people in China before I told him to get to fuck - but I obviously didn't know about the other stuff then. I first encountered him when he was offering 'free lessons in swordsmanship' to any women on this forum so I posted a few double entendres, no more than a handful ( :P ), and he went apeshit and threatened to 'strike me down' and 'decapitate' me for not respecting a grandmaster. I laughed that off and we actually PM'd back and forth a couple of times about local info and restaurants and where to get Western clothes. He seemed OK on that level and I certainly didn't take his 'threat' seriously at all.

That said, he kept getting into arguments with other people on the forum and constantly going on about Tibet and Tiananmen Square and shit which got the forum temporarily banned by the ISP a few times (this happens quite often in China). Eventually, the Chinese admin banned him but for some reason he was convinced I was the admin, I don't know why. He turned up at my work a couple of days after that kicking off about it so I told him to fuck off. In hindsight, I don't know why but he just walked away. He got deported not long after, which was probably for the best all round, but I found out later that he'd had run-ins with plenty of people. I didn't take it personally, but I still learned something from it.

And KSub, sorry if I've ever come off distant or unfriendly, I am just quite a bit more reticent online than in real life, and I hope this puts it in some context.
Meanwhile, I've also been playing the Vasara Collection. It's decent. I like a bit of Psikyo, Raiden Fighters et al from time to time. They're not my favourite games by a long stretch but this fits into that tier very nicely. It's probably better mechanically than most Psikyo games but I probably prefer Raiden Fighters Jet. Looks good though and plays tightly.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 16th, 2019, 2:11 pm

clippa wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 10:51 am
Blimey, that was quick, there's your deathsmiles deal, hazeredmist - https://www.humblebundle.com/store/deathsmiles
SHITTING HELL. I need to not buy this but probably can't not buy this

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 16th, 2019, 2:31 pm

It'll be worth it!
Stanshall wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 1:54 pm
I think I'll just have to get on with it like one of those Japanese arcade champs because that's my destiny, anyway.
Haha, you might be right, it's going that way, all you have to do is leave your wife, quit your job and devote the rest of your life to daioujou. You've clearly got the right approach and mindset that'll take you further than just being happy with a semi ad-libbed chump 1cc and moving on.
a few double entendres
All my online threats of death/violence/litigation have come from daft wee jokes, I was wondering if there was something like that that sparked it off :lol:

I can understand you being a bit cautious, just so long as you don't stop being yourself. It's not gonna mean much coming from a absolute tit like me, but you were always one of the good guys!

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Michiel K
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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » August 16th, 2019, 6:48 pm

Just went hard at Vasara Timeless and reached the third boss, after not being able to breach into stage 2 for a while. Inearly got him too.

I think I'm starting to get a handle on this crazy game. There's even a shadow dash / barrel roll button!

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 16th, 2019, 7:44 pm

Took a break from blue wish to have a go on rolling gunner normal mode again. God, that game stresses me out so much on normal, beat my score, but I don't know why I bother, those two bosses at the end will just utterly wipe the floor with me if I ever get there.

383,419,890

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 16th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Well, I read that stupid big post again and it's pretty good.
I can't really argue with it.
There are now 3 ways to play shmups, my way, the highway and how Stanshall plays doj. I can't say fairer than that.

I'll try and talk about how I play shmups, as that'll be more fun, and we can see if it's less justifiable.

Every time I play, I play from the beginning until I die.
I think I've said it before but it's obviously not the most efficient way to learn a game.

I've seen guys on the shmups forum recommending that people credit feed their way through a new game and just keep doing that until they end up doing it on one credit.
That makes perfect sense to me, as you're experiencing the whole game every time and learning every stage equally.

What I end up doing is getting to be absolute boss at the first couple of stages, though maybe not as good as Stanshall, and then mostly having to just improvise through the end, the hardest part of the game, until I get lucky.

Like, if it's a really tricky game, I'll have seen the last boss and it's patterns only a handful of times, so I'm always full of panic and crossing all my toes, just praying that I get through it.

True last bosses are the absolute bane of my life. There are so many games where they don't turn up in normal mode, so after I manage that, I go for hard mode, finally get all the way through, slump back in my chair, let out a huge sigh of relief and then all of a sudden some ominous music starts playing and this big daft prick I've never even seen before turns up and one shots me into oblivion.

When I was growing up, games didn't have continues. Unless you plugged in a cheat code, you were expected to finish the game with the amount of lives you were given.
It was also an exciting moment when you managed to beat the level you were stuck on and your reward was seeing this brand new, shiny level which had new scenery, sometimes even new enemies, and a brand new boss to get chinned by.

I just can't shake that mentality, it's engrained in my brain and it seems a fair and fun, organic way to play.
I believe that's the arcade mentality and I'm quite pleased that it's still alive and well in my brain in this day and age of cheat codes, regenerating health, bebop music and bare ankles. It would have been so easy to succumb to sin.

The people at the top sharing routes and strategies, you know, those people who are so good at these games and have played a particular game enough to know it inside out, that's the only thing that's missing when you get to that level, if they see your secrets, they can replicate them or even go one better and execute them better than you can, so I can sort of see that guys point when he chose to share them with one person who maybe he'd particularly warmed to, but didn't want him showing anyone else.

Jaimers no miss on the mushihimesama TLB in ultra has 37,603 views


but the guy who taught him it, bananamatic, his video only got 1,598 views!


Pls like and subscribe :(

That'd be enough for me to throw in the towel :lol:

I might carry out an experiment on myself, pick a cave classic in mame that I've not really played much before and try that approach, just credit feed until I get the 1cc and see what happens. See if my mind snaps, see if I can unlearn all those stupid restrictive rules I've set myself. See if I like it better and if it makes more sense. That'll be exciting.

I don't know if he's stopped now, but danbo (of blue revolver fame) has a fun little thread on twitter where you can post the name of a shmup and he'll give a brief review - https://twitter.com/__danbo/status/1161909236714135553

On DOJ, Stanshall's current squeeze:
strict ddp-style chaining ain't really my bag. hypers make up for it (play black label if possible!)

out of all cave's games, dai ou jou has the strongest atmosphere and sense of place, thanks largely to its soundtrack cornering the market on "moody bangers"
Ha, "moody bangers" that's such a Stanshall thing to say, but it also makes me picture those horrible botched boob jobs you used to see a lot of in the 90s, so I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it as a phrase.

On zeroranger
a constantly-surprising treat of a game. an embarassment of riches. the best STG made outside of japan.

the only thing i dislike is that it has a required loop, and while it does everything possible to justify that loop, i wish it could somehow exist without the loop.
Incorrect, that game would be blue revolver. Agree with him about the loop, I don't think the game gets going properly until the second loop. I wish the second loop was split to a separate difficulty mode.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 17th, 2019, 4:38 am

clippa wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Every time I play, I play from the beginning until I die.
I think I've said it before but it's obviously not the most efficient way to learn a game.

What I end up doing is getting to be absolute boss at the first couple of stages, though maybe not as good as Stanshall, and then mostly having to just improvise through the end, the hardest part of the game, until I get lucky.
I don't mean to sound harsh buddy, but if you know that's not really efficient and would like to get better results, why don't you simply train the later sections with Stage Select?

If you developed a feel for the tricky final stages and bosses, then surely that would prevent you from panicking and dying and having to re-do the entire game over and over again, no? :|

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 17th, 2019, 2:08 pm

That better not have been a passive aggressive "buddy". I've got my eye on you, owly.

Getting better results isn't important to me, to be honest. I play to have fun. If I get better, that's a happy coincidence.
I don't even think it's my brain going "you have to play with integrity!" It's just the very idea of "practising" seems like homework to me.
I like the whole adventure you have in a shmup game, I wanna go on that adventure every time from the start. It'd be like putting an album on halfway through or starting a film or a book from the middle, it just wouldn't seem right to me.

I remember when we were playing dfk on reddit, I read somewhere that if you played easy mode, all the bees were unhidden, so I goes "right, I'll have a few runs of easy mode, that way I can learn all the locations of the bees, that'll really help with keeping my chains up"

I got halfway through a run of easy and was like "fuck this!"
I just got really bored and felt like I wasn't having fun.

When you think about it, it'd be like practising for a play and starting back at the beginning every time you made a mistake.
Imagine how stressful you'd get running through it, knowing that if you cocked up you'd be right back at the start :lol: then the audience just watching the actors improvising their way through the finale on opening night.

"The first third of the play seemed over-rehearsed, if anything, a bit robotic, it picked up a bit after that, but the bit at the end with the pineapple was just confusing"

I think I like the stress, I think it's an integral part of the experience for me. Those difficult, mysterious bosses that you've only met a few times, it makes the fight way more exciting than if you've played through that boss 100 times in training mode and have memorised his every move before you get there.

I realise that if you want to beat ultra, if you want to play at that level then you have to take this approach, practising every stage, memorising the entire game. This is precisely why I don't ever want to beat ultra.
I can appreciate the skill and commitment that goes into getting that shit down, but it doesn't interest me in the slightest. It looks about as fun as memorising a phone book.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 17th, 2019, 2:32 pm

clippa wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 2:08 pm
That better not have been a passive aggressive "buddy". I've got my eye on you, owly.
No, of course not. It just sounds to me like your method leads to a lot of gratuitous stress and frustration, so that would have been the obvious solution to me. Then again, I seem to approach things from a much more methodical angle, so what works for me probably wouldn't work for you from the sound of it. Left brain vs. right brain type of dilemma.

Just trying to help! :)

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 17th, 2019, 2:38 pm

You're a good lad, owly, sorry I doubted you.
Yah, like I say, I'm gonna experiment with credit feeding until I get my 1cc, that might work for me. I'll have to steal myself to press continue, it'll feel like I'm pushing the "sell out" or "drown puppy" button :lol:
Might do that later on tonight, might try espgaluda because that one's pretty easy I think.

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 17th, 2019, 6:14 pm

clippa wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 2:08 pm
I play to have fun. If I get better, that's a happy coincidence.
What a quote. :lighter:

I'm of the same ilk tbh. I think it might be different if I had more time, but I don't. And I don't resent that. It's precious and valuable doing this shit. I want to enjoy every second! The times I do obsess it's out of enjoyment, not out of duty. Whenever that starts happening and I realise it, I generally stop and move on.

Again, I respect everyone's methods here! It's great that we all forge our own paths but enjoy the same materials along the way.

SHMUPS 4 LIFE

PS. I bought Deathsmiles. I have such a healthy library on Steam now! Crimzon Clover, Danmaku Unlimited 2, Deathsmiles, DoDonpachi Resurrection, The Hurricane of the Varstray. Part time PC Gamer. Boom

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Alex79uk
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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » August 17th, 2019, 6:28 pm

Just spent an hour messing round with shmupmame. Found a brilliant game called Progear, it's awesome! Found loads of ace games I've never played before! Donpachi or something, guwange, they're all so much fun! This is awesome!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 17th, 2019, 7:19 pm

One of us!

One of us!

One of us!

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