Shmups

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 11:43 am



"Captain! Enemy fire at 12 o'clock! by my calculations that laser is set to hit us within the next week, I recommend changing course by Thursday at the latest."

The shit munchers and prodslab jockeys are going to go absolutely wild in the aisles for this turkey.

I'm liking the new snarky gatekeeper vibe this thread has taken. It's not our final form, I'm sure, but I'm feeling like a proper bad ass, might put some shades on later.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » September 12th, 2019, 12:10 pm

Personally, I'm not trying to gatekeep or to prevent anybody from getting into these games. In fact, I'm more than happy to see curious forumites pop in every once in a while and give the one or other beginner-friendly game a shot. The more the merrier and I think it's important to respect players of all skill and engagement levels.

All I'm saying is that playing traditional shmups on a touchpad is the equivalent of playing darts while wearing boxing gloves. It's never going to work properly and whoever is claiming otherwise is either severely misinformed or straight up lying to you.

It's not the fault of the players, it's the fault of whoever tried to make a quick buck out of bastardizing these games and didn't mind misleading the public in the process.


Purism should be about preserving the integrity of something you love, not about making people feel bad. But I also think it's okay to call foul when certain lines are being crossed for the wrong reasons.


PS: R-Type 2 looks a bit slow for me, but I'm sure it'll have its fans.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 12:45 pm

I know what you mean, but it's a fun thing to explore.
KSubzero1000 wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:10 pm
All I'm saying is that playing first person shooters on a pad is the equivalent of playing darts while wearing boxing gloves.
I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that. Adding aim assist, making the hit boxes bigger and the bullets magnetic is the very definition of bastardising the genre.

Mobile gaming is huge in Japan and I think cave were very savvy rolling with the times and porting their games over to keep the lights on.
Casual little time wasters while waiting for a bus like that can be a gateway drug that get people into the genre proper. It's all good.

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Re: Shmups

Post by ratsoalbion » September 12th, 2019, 12:51 pm

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 11:43 am


"Captain! Enemy fire at 12 o'clock! by my calculations that laser is set to hit us within the next week, I recommend changing course by Thursday at the latest."

The shit munchers and prodslab jockeys are going to go absolutely wild in the aisles for this turkey.

I'm liking the new snarky gatekeeper vibe this thread has taken. It's not our final form, I'm sure, but I'm feeling like a proper bad ass, might put some shades on later.
I’m really not. Turn it down please. You may think you’re being humorous but it doesn’t come across well.

This place is not going to become another shmups forum, or any elitist, exclusive place the likes of which you can find anywhere else on the internet.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » September 12th, 2019, 12:57 pm

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:45 pm
Adding aim assist, making the hit boxes bigger and the bullets magnetic is the very definition of bastardising the genre.
It's not that simple because not all shooters are created equal. It depends on what platform an individual game was originally developed on. I agree that playing a PC-centric FPS like Half-Life or CounterStrike with a controller is an inadequate and unfulfilling experience. But a game like Halo that is meant to be a console game through and through is a completely different case. It's similar to playing Resogun with an analogue stick - if it's been designed around that input method from the ground up, it's all good in my book.

I don't know how much personal experience you have with console shooters, but another thing worth mentioning is that they're not all PC ports and that they don't all have aim assist either. Vanquish for example (even though it's a TPS) plays like an absolute dream on controller even without aim assist, afaik. Let's not throw all the babies out with the bathwater.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 1:05 pm

You have to explore where that energy is coming from and why people feel the need to express it, I reckon.
Just telling them not to do it doesn't solve anything.
I think it's worth exploring why some people think mobile shmups are disrespecting the medium, I think that's worth exploring.

R-type looks slow and dull to me and I'm not a fan of that cheap difficulty "oh, you didn't know that big worm was going to bumrush you? Well, now you do, remember that for next time", just a string of 50 of those moments you have to grind through. If you're someone like me who doesn't like to credit feed, it's a nightmare!
That's all there is to it. Loads of sooper dooper shmup veterans love r-type, not just the filthy casuals. I was using that to make a point.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 1:08 pm

Yeah, that's a good point. You're OK with aka to blue? Specifically designed with touch controls in mind?



It'll be interesting to see how much the patterns change for the arcade version.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » September 12th, 2019, 1:13 pm

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 1:08 pm
You're OK with aka to blue? Specifically designed with touch controls in mind?
First time I've heard of it, but I think that's perfectly fine. The movement and patterns in the video appear to be completely centered around touch controls, so that's totally okay in my book.

I guess my problem is less with any specific platform(s) and more with half-baked ports that don't seem to understand the intricacies of the material they're dealing with, let's put it that way.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Well, it can be a slippery slope. There are lots of master race pc gamers that complain about "consolification", franchises being simplified more and more with each iteration.

It's only a matter of time before you start sounding like this pompous oaf.

"This weeks hobby will be the hobby of the playing gaaaaames hobby."


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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » September 12th, 2019, 6:39 pm

KSubzero1000 wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:10 pm
All I'm saying is that playing traditional shmups on a touchpad is the equivalent of playing darts while wearing boxing gloves. It's never going to work properly and whoever is claiming otherwise is either severely misinformed or straight up lying to you.
I've played a few. The iPhone had loads of Cave shooters available years ago, I remember playing Bug Princess among others. You generally get to choose between on screen joystick or 'draw a line with your finger' type controls. Both, as you would expect, are equally shit. It really is absolutely pointless playing these games on a phone. Even now, on Android, there are dozens of 'good quality' shmups available. Danmaku Unlimited 2, for example, was free the other day. I downloaded it just to give it a try. Game was great, but again, totally pointless trying to play it on a touch screen. About the only reason I can think any of these would be worth trying is literally to see if you like the style, but then you might as well just check YouTube and watch it running anyway. But each to their own I guess, hopefully it might inspire people to check out the 'regular' versions of the games.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » September 12th, 2019, 6:45 pm

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 1:05 pm
R-type looks slow and dull to me
Well it might not bear much resemblance to the modern bullet hell shooters you're used to playing, but it's a fantastic game. Hard as nails and the powerups are amazing. Love that game, and remember it's 32 years old!

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 7:44 pm

I'm saying nowt. I'll be the one who gets my wrists slapped either way. I'm a good girl.
Alex79uk wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 6:45 pm
and remember it's 32 years old!
you are.
I hated it back then, if anything I've mellowed with age :lol:

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Re: Shmups

Post by Alex79uk » September 12th, 2019, 8:59 pm

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 7:44 pm
I'm saying nowt. I'll be the one who gets my wrists slapped either way. I'm a good girl.
It's ok not to like something. It's the three paragraphs of superfluous, hyperactive gibberish afterwards that spoils any valid point you might be trying to make.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 9:08 pm

Aaaaw, that's always my favourite bit :(
I think we all know what the next score competition is gonna be :lol:

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 12th, 2019, 10:26 pm

Just to be clear, I was getting some elitist vibes on the previous page and it didn't sit well with me. Some comments were jokey, some seemed less so.
I was exaggerating for comic effect, I find it a good way of pointing something out without being directly confrontational.

It keeps things light and keeps people open to questioning their own outlook.

I think it's a good way of bringing something to the fore and examining it and chatting it out.
I thought that was obvious, but then I am me so of course I'm going to know my intentions. I wasn't purposefully being a dick.

I'll take "superfluous, hyperactive gibberish", it's a fair description of my posting style, but all I can say is that there's method in my madness. I don't purposefully write gibberish. Which bits made no sense? I might be able to explain myself. Maybe there's a reference you missed or something?
Or it might be all bollocks, and I'd gladly hold my hands up to that!

Owly has said a few things in the past and I've found myself going "Oohoohoo! You can't say that!" but found myself agreeing with him a bit too, so I thought it was an interesting thing to examine.
Sometimes for me he represents the pompous, elitist part of myself that I try to keep a lid on.
I think conversely, I might represent the daft wally part of him that he'd rather stifle, hence the intense love/hate relationship.

When me and my nephew used to play games on the ipad all the time, I got a few of the cave games and they're alright, we enjoyed playing through them. During that time I realised that I hate touch controls in all their manifestations though, it works for turn based stuff and puzzle games but not for any sort of action game, I find.

I think the likes of r-type and ikaruga are big names that your average gamer recognises and I don't think they're good poster boys or ambassadors for the genre.
That r-type kickstarter hit it's goal in record time and there's people who don't really play shmups excited for it.
I was making a point that maybe a big name and reputation are more important to your casual gamer than quality, though of course, it's all subjective.

Never a huge fan of sotcaa, but I remember this being a thought provoking article. Puts forth the idea that elitism shouldn't be a dirty word - http://sotcaa.org/comment/elitist.html

If we're at that important turning point in gaming where everything's getting watered down, maybe it's time for a little elitism. Maybe owly is right.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 13th, 2019, 2:37 am

This was great. BSM vs robowasp. I got really invested, it was liking watching some epic opera!
As if I've ever watched an opera. I've watched oprah. I imagine they're much of a muchness.


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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » September 13th, 2019, 6:44 am

hazeredmist wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:16 am
Been playing Earth Defence Force on the SNES, courtesy of Nintendo Online. Neko Navy 1cc mateyboy chose it as the retro game challenge this week. Old school shmup, graphically pretty bland but somehow reminds me a little of Rolling Gunner, not sure why. It's gnarly at first, takes a bit of getting used to with bullets that aren't easy to see but it's a lot more palatable when you choose decent weapons. I can only get to level 2 right now. I will keep plugging away! Anyone else played it?
Continued with this, I hope I have a reasonable chance of winning... Did pretty well last night with some repetition, I think it's comfortably my favourite old school (not Cave-style) shmup now! Enjoying it a lot. I can now get to Stage 3 in one credit which seemed impossible just a day earlier. I recommend those with Nintendo Online give this one a go.

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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » September 13th, 2019, 6:54 am

Alex79uk wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:45 am
hazeredmist wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 3:10 pm
Yeah, this is wank. It feels like some kid knocked it up while watching Netflix. Dull as fuck. Uninspiring enemies. Empty backdrops. It feels so budget it hurts. It makes Overdriven feel like Crimzon Clover. Unsatisfying and I get why Ksub references Sky Forces now too.

Even at £1.69 it’s a waste of cash. I wish I’d listened to you guys. This is the last time, I promise 😂
Well I'm tempted out of sheer morbid curiosity now. Going to give it a try!
:lol: I'm going to go back to it at some point to try and get this platinum trophy Ksub got in ten minutes... Obviously my experience was quite different with my skill level. I have 40% of the trophies after two goes, and didn't complete it. Mind you, I'm not convinced I like playing shmups on the Vita, none of the ones I've played on it have felt particularly satisfying (FullBlast, Fast Striker, Soldner-X 2). It could be the sticks, but then I enjoy Resogun on Vita a lot... So it's probably the games not gelling well with me.

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Re: Shmups

Post by Michiel K » September 13th, 2019, 7:03 am

clippa wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 10:26 pm
That r-type kickstarter hit it's goal in record time and there's people who don't really play shmups excited for it.
I was making a point that maybe a big name and reputation are more important to your casual gamer than quality, though of course, it's all subjective.
Very much so. And very relative. I mean, if we take the wider accepted meaning of a casual gamer (i.e. someone that might play something popular on their phone and not give it much thought, is befuddled by the thought of critical analysis of games and media and discussion of games surrounding it), I'm not even sure they even heard of R-Type. You'd have to know a thing or two about video games and their history to even know what an R-Type is.

When we did the podcast on R-Type we even had criticism from someone who's by any means not a casual gamer and who's very deep into video games that we just assumed the listener knew what R-Type is and who had to look the game up on YouTube, because we didn't offer any description.

I think R-Type is the shit, by the way. A true giant and milestone of the genre. Love it or hate it (like Ikaruga), but it stands out and doesn't play very much like anything else, except for the games it has influenced directly (which is of course why, as you say, it can't be a real catch-all ambassador of the genre). In the podcast, we also go into why it doesn't really deserve its rep as a pure memoriser, that there is way more room for tactics and that you get more leeway and time to react to hazards than many give it credit for.

Not much of a fan of the first R-Type Final. We'll see how this one pans out.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » September 13th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Michiel K wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 7:03 am
I'm not even sure they even heard of R-Type. You'd have to know a thing or two about video games and their history to even know what an R-Type is.
That cannae be right, surely? It must be an age thing. R-type got ported to pretty much everything and it was huge. If you were old enough to be playing games around that time, you couldn't have missed it.
Everytime the genre is mentioned in any sort of mainstream press it'll be r-type or ikaruga.

Thanks for the link, will give that a listen. I think I've given the game enough chances to know that I definitely don't like it, but I'm all for hearing you lot natter on about it.

Did this fly under the switchboys radars, or are you all just ignoring it? Looks alright to me.

Brace yourself if you've got a hangover

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0:10 "Juicy steak, you're really gonna take shiny prostate" :shock:
Looks like it might have analogue movement if that's a deal breaker. Watched a bit of this and yer man says stages are played separately and there's a shop to buy upgrades and stuff so it's very none traditional, looks really fun to me, might be good!

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