Elden Ring

[Alex79]

Call me sad, but I had an idea to make a digital scrapbook type thing as I played Elden Ring. Maybe a pic of an NPC with some notes, reminders for myself, locations of certain things with map photos and stuff. But presented kind of nice in a digital book. Assumed there would be a perfect app for it - but no, there's nothing!

(I mean obviously I could make something really nice looking with a copy of Adobe InDesign, a laptop and enough time, but I meant a quick and easy phone thing using page templates and stuff).

[markfm007]

Started the game yesterday evening and had a good day's play today. I went for samurai after about fifteen minutes of dithering and am really enjoying the skill set with the sword. I've spent most of my time exploring, discovering new areas and characters, been down the odd catacomb but no bosses defeated yet. I figured I'd like it, but I'm already loving it far more than I expected. The world is absolutely wonderful, full of colour and character. Already it feels like I'm playing something really special. I definitely want to take my time with it, not worry about progress or banging out long play sessions.

[Alex79]

I've started again this evening. Went Vagabond the other night and was enjoying it, but wanted to try Samurai because of the sword.

[KissMammal]

Bought it. Gave it a good shake (5-6 hours). I had a few moments of enjoyment, but mostly just found it a tedious slog. Refunded it.

Everything about it seems deliberately designed to be offputting and obtuse, down to the incredibly fiddly controls and UI which often seem like something from the ps1 era. Hold Y and press RB to wield a weapon two-handed? Really? Game world is drab, lifeless and boring, just one set of inhospitable looking ruins after another. Zero variety to the visuals or gameplay. None of the joy of exploration that I experienced in BotW.

I get that some people like the sense of mystery and challenge - and the accomplishment of making a modicum of progress against almost insurmountable odds, but if you wanted you could basically recreate that same feeling with any game if you started the game on the hardest difficulty, randomised the control layout and changed all the onscreen language to Danish. Voila! Soulslike!

I kid, but I've really tried with these kinds of games, but have to put my hands up and admit that I simply don't understand the appeal. I'm amazed anyone has the stamina, patience or frankly the free time required to make any meaningful progress.

[KissMammal]

I should add, went in with good intentions. I know what these games are like so I took it slow, took plenty of time to explore etc, but its (imo) far too hard for anyone's first Souls game experience. Even when trying to fight defensively and not go in too hard, dodging and blocking seem almost entirely useless even against the absolute easiest enemies in the entire game. Levelling up or trying out different weapons is almost impossible as rewards/pickups are so stingy. Difficulty curve for a newbie is basically a wall, which is a real shame.

I have limited experience with the original Dark Souls, and although its tough this is a whole different level. Doubly annoying as this has been heralded as the most accessible and player friendly Souls game. It most definitely is not.

[Marlew]

grrr souls

I feel for you because these games can be frustrating and obtuse. Much of what you said isn't accurate in my experience but I just want to say first that I sympathise. It's about learning the rhythm of combat in these games. They're much less about reactions than knowledge and patience.

You mention that blocking and dodging are useless. I don't know what you mean exactly but I assume you're not aware of the stamina bar or how to manage it. That's basically the essence of the combat system. Drop your shield to recover stamina quickly, block a couple of hits and then it's your chance to attack. This approach will get you through 80% of enemies in the game.

Dodging is about timing, yes, but it's more about knowledge. I watched James Farley play DS2 and even after twenty hours or so, he kept getting hit when dodging and it was as infuriating to watch as it must have been to play. If you dodge to the side, more often than not you'll get caught in the weapon arc. Dodge forwards or backwards. As soon as he started doing this, one tiny change, he made much more progress.

As for the lifeless world and joyless exploration compared to BotW, this game has basically solved two of the main issues I have going back to that game. First, the secrets you find here are genuinely unique rather than just some level-appropriate random gear or items. If you want to use the dragon tail melee magic, for example, there is one location and one unique enemy to beat. BotW does an amazing job at tempting you to see what's on top of that hill or down that valley or whatever, but the tangible reward is rarely memorable.

I also find the world density and variety here far surpasses BotW, not from a technical perspective, I mean design rather than detail. It sounds like you've not ventured beyond the opening area but even within that, there's an enormous amount to see and do. I also really appreciate that stamina is only a thing in combat. I pray that BotW2 takes this approach because I find the stamina wheel in the middle of the screen telling me to stop running every five-ten seconds an awful decision in retrospect and the main reason why I struggle to go back to one of the very best games I've ever played.

Anyway, that's my perspective on some of what you said.

[markfm007]

I'm basically the opposite on everything you said KissMammal I don't think people will like this game if they hate Souls, it's still a Souls game, but I do think this game is good if you liked Souls but bounced off of it due to feeling bottle-necked. I'm finding it much easier to farm the basic enemies and hop on my horse and run away if I'm struggling with a bigger one. Gives you more space to practice and make progress, and less fear of losing your runes.

[Alex79]

I must admit, I'm finding it the toughest Souls game so far too. I've completed 1, 2, 3, Demon's and Bloodborne, and still not managed the first proper boss in this. Almost there though, he had a tiny bit of health left last night. I've only taken out one boss so far, aside from the laughably easy one that's a counterattack tutorial. The one I've beated was in a cave, some sort of wolfbeast thing that wasn't difficult, but man if the first story boss is an indication of how the game is going to be....yikes!

EDIT: When I say toughest, I guess I'm really talking about that boss. The rest so far hasn't been particularly taxing.

[Marlew]

The session I've had today is the most fun I've had with a game since BotW.

[Simonsloth]

I’m the same as you Alex in terms of that boss! I hit a brick wall there so turned around and spent the next 10 or so hours roaming off in different directions on my own little creature safari. Having the horse means you can easily run away if youre overwhelmed and finding the bonfire equivalent to rest at knowing any death will just send you back there makes me more reckless but has lead to my best finds.

I’ve also found co-op very easy to navigate also with the new ability to send your summon sign out to multiple locations remotely from the multiplayer section of the options menu so I’ve been gathering souls that way also.

I sort of worry I’m getting overlevelled so my co-op pairings will dry up or I’ll be paired with someone fighting harder enemies but at the moment the options are plentiful.

I think the game assumes you have prior knowledge of the previous games and even the tutorial was easy to walk past. I don’t know why they would make the choice to stick it down a hole and not signpost it better! Overall I’m enjoying it but as yet it doesn’t feel like a souls game to me and the jury is out whether it’s a better feeling or not.

[Marlew]

Just realised I didn't see the tutorial so didn't know how to do the guard counter for about fifteen hours. Now totally making up for lost time. I love how sometimes it'll grab the enemy in and set them up for another attack, kind of like wing chun kung fu. It's like Scorpion's 'get over here!'

I've somehow put 25 hours into this since Friday evening, which is absurd. I haven't done that with a game since BotW. I'm completely gripped and frankly amazed by how much variety is in here. I basically ignored KissMammal's criticisms of the world but at this point, I really feel sorry for the poor sod. This is an unbelievable environment with so many unique elements and so much diversity of secrets. BotW is equally special in many different ways but there's never been a world like this. There are so many massive, intricate and just downright entertaining areas.

Mechanically, there's so much to say. I love that the Marika statues basically address the boss run up criticisms by giving you the choice of a quick restart in the vicinity, or to go back to the site of grace and try something different. It's a really neat, elegant idea.

I really appreciate that they seem to have sacked off the bullshit mob stuff that's just got worse over time. Encounters seem much better balanced and challenging rather than frustrating.

There's also an amazing range of systems and mechanics, too many to mention and as I say, no spoilers. I have about four distinct builds already in mind.

[KissMammal]

I'm completely gripped and frankly amazed by how much variety is in here. I basically ignored KissMammal's criticisms of the world but at this point, I really feel sorry for the poor sod.

Why would you be sorry? Dark Souls games have a particular aesthetic and a typical style of game world and a totally valid art style, and it's one I personally don't care for. It's kinda ethereal, dreamlike and lifeless, deliberately so. That's what they're going for. And to me that's boring. I prefer exploring spaces that feel more tangible and lived in.

I think the game assumes you have prior knowledge of the previous games

Very much this. It's all but impenetrable for a newcomer to the series, something more of the reviews should be flagging, to be honest. Be interested to see sales vs returns figures. I'm honestly amazed Microsoft refunded my digital purchase. Wouldn't have even thought to request one unless I'd seen someone online discuss doing the same. So fair play.

[Marlew]

You only saw a tiny glimpse of what the world has to offer and it's far far more dense, varied and full of life than BotW. In fact, it shows up how much of that game was one small pool of ideas pasted ad infinitum across the map.

As I say, I was very gentle in dealing with your criticisms, most of which were factually incorrect and underpinned by the principles that a) you shouldn't have to learn the controls and b) you were deceived by reviewers.

On that note, I saw plenty of reviews saying it's the hardest game they've made. Maybe the printed word isn't the best way to inform gambling fifty quid now that YT exists.

[Rhaegyr]

It's basically an open world Dark Souls - absolutely fine by me, really enjoying it so far after playing it all weekend!

[Switchsayer]

I've not played a Souls game before- will I like this? I'm getting put off by the difficulty. Some say this is the hardest Souls game they've played.

I love open-world games, such ask Skyrim and BOTW. I'm currently having a blast playing Horizon: Forbidden West. It's a vibrant, beautiful game with so much to do and explore...whilst Elden Ring looks washed-out and bland in comparison. I don't mind that in theory, as long as the gameplay is good and by the looks of it, yes it is.

But as a newcomer it all looks very daunting!

[Marlew]

Compared to Elden Ring, there's almost nothing to do or explore in HFW. As commented on TCGS this week, Horizon feels like a set. ER feels like a place. The palette is more muted than HFW's saturated look but the art direction is arguably the best in the industry. The enemy designs, clothing, weapons, and environmental details are the best I've seen alongside Bloodborne. The scale and verticality and interconnected nature of the world is literally best in class. Nobody does it like FROM.

I say all this as a big fan of both HZD and what I played of HFW. Horizon is a great 8/10. Elden Ring is a once in a generation classic.

It's hard - you will die a lot - but it's incredibly satisfying to learn and once you're over the initial barrier, it gets better and better and better. Ask in here and you'll get tonnes of great advice.

It's designed that you can't do everything and see everything in one go. What's tough for me will be different for you, depending on your build. There will be loads that I miss on this first blind playthrough that you would no doubt experience, and vice versa. More than anything, it just requires the patience and open mind to learn something new.

[Truk_Kurt]

I've read that there are checkpoints right before many of the mosses in this which is making it a more enticing prospect for me as that was a bug bear of mine in the two FromSoftware games I have tried so far. The ability to try a boss or tough encounter straight away rather than having to do the run up to them again eliminates my main frustration with the series.

I also read this excellent article over the weekend which has made me think I should give it a go.

https://www.windowscentral.com/elden-ri ... -newcomers

[Rhaegyr]

A bit hyperbolic?

It's only been out a weekend and you've already deemed it superior to Breath of the Wild, best in class at multiple things and even raked a forum user over the coals (a little) for trying it and not liking it.

I've really enjoyed what I've seen and played so far (roughly 15 hours in) but I think it's a little too early to start bringing out the superlatives.

[Marlew]

Not hyperbolic at all, just very positive.

I said it's superior to BotW in certain respects (variety, density, unique elements of the world) and that BotW is equally special in different ways (which I didn’t specify). I only referenced BotW because KM made the comparison - and one which was amusing given that BotW is literally set in a largely lifeless world full of ruins.

I said that FROM are best in class at certain design elements (not a controversial opinion) and that this matches those lofty standards.

Are reviewers to be admonished for making similarly grand statements about the game?

I didn't particularly rake KM over the coals, I just challenged some of the factual inaccuracies. Their sweeping conclusions after a few hours are simply uninformed. I didn't comment on the needless dig that these games are for people with too much time on their hands, nor the huffing and puffing about the controls 'not working'.

I'm not going to apologise for being enthusiastic. Games and gamer discourse are already boring enough.

[ratsoalbion]

I don't understand folks' desperation to rank it against to another, superficially similar but intriniscally very different game from five years ago on another platform. I'm not sure what that achieves.

Everyone who's played both will have their own preferences for sure - and that's interesting to talk about - but there can be no objective, empirical 'this one is better than that one'.
Compare and contrast for sure, but to try to 'rank', I just don't see the point.
I'd rather celebrate (and criticise) them both.