The Last of Us

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Todinho

Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Todinho »

The levels are linear but they are very big and have many areas to explore that you wouldnt go through if you didnt explore,the enviroments in general are very detailed, it's no Deus Ex but it's no Uncharted either
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Flabyo
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Flabyo »

I certainly enjoyed playing it, but it's gameplay is a LONG way off being 'best in class'.

For what it's trying to do I think Eternal Darkness *plays* better, for example. As do some of the Silent Hill games.

None of those come close to TLoU in presentation terms though.
Todinho

Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Todinho »

...What? :shock:
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ratsoalbion
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by ratsoalbion »

Not that I would have thought to compare them without this prompt from Flabyo, but for the record I enjoyed the playing of TLoU more than any Uncharted, any Silent Hill game and immeasurably more than Eternal Darkness.
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Flabyo »

I'm not sure why this game more than any other seems to be getting people on the defensive when someone else says they don't think it's perfect?
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by ratsoalbion »

I don't think it's perfect either, what is?

Rather than being defensive, I was trying (as usual, though I'm not always successful :)) to express my own experience, not attempting to argue an objective order of merit for the games you mentioned.

As ever the podcast will be an honest discussion about the positives and negatives of our experiences with the game, and we'll be sharing many of the less glowing appraisals from the forum here.

Saying that, I think folks who really connected with the story and characters probably will feel a strong 'protective' bond to the game that mirrors the events depicted within. ;)
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Flabyo
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Flabyo »

Yeah, I should've been a little clearer. It's a general trend around discussion of this game, not necessarily here but most other places I go.

It seems to get people more riled than usual to criticise it. It struck me as interesting is all.

I do think it's a step forward in terms of telling a story in a game. But in terms of strength of plot compared to elder media it's still barely at the 'straight to DVD' stage. (Which is progress! Most game plots still languish in the equivalent of the 'TV Movie of the Week' bracket).

The minute to minute gameplay, if backed by a weaker plot, would probably draw more critical attention I think. But criticising an aspect of a game in isolation is clearly not productive.

The Last of Us is a great game. So is Bioshock Infinite. But they could've been absolutely outstanding ones with some fairly minor changes to how they actually play. I don't expect we'll be talking much about either game 5 years from now in the same way we do Deus Ex or ICO.

Maybe I'm just failing to separate the technical from the overall package here. A flaw that I acknowledge is pretty much a given once you've coded on a few games, it's a struggle to see anything other than the things you would've done differently.
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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by arry_g »

Flabyo wrote:Yeah, I should've been a little clearer. It's a general trend around discussion of this game, not necessarily here but most other places I go.

It seems to get people more riled than usual to criticise it. It struck me as interesting is all.

I do think it's a step forward in terms of telling a story in a game. But in terms of strength of plot compared to elder media it's still barely at the 'straight to DVD' stage. (Which is progress! Most game plots still languish in the equivalent of the 'TV Movie of the Week' bracket).

The minute to minute gameplay, if backed by a weaker plot, would probably draw more critical attention I think. But criticising an aspect of a game in isolation is clearly not productive.

The Last of Us is a great game. So is Bioshock Infinite. But they could've been absolutely outstanding ones with some fairly minor changes to how they actually play. I don't expect we'll be talking much about either game 5 years from now in the same way we do Deus Ex or ICO.

Maybe I'm just failing to separate the technical from the overall package here. A flaw that I acknowledge is pretty much a given once you've coded on a few games, it's a struggle to see anything other than the things you would've done differently.
If I may I would love to add my experiences to the conversation you two are having.

As of writing this I have completed The Last of Us five times; twice on PS3 and three times on PS4 (though once on someone else's account). I adore the story. I have mentioned on the forums here though that I feel the gameplay has a weakness to it, also that I have encountered technical problems from the game and this to me lowers the score of the game in my head as I judge a game by my experience of the complete package - not by the strongest element of the game. With that in mind I have often criticised the game for mechanically being repetitive, for narratively starting slow (fine first time, a little awkward in NG+), occasionally odd design decisions and for previously mentioned technical problems but made a point to praise its strengths (and it has many) and yet I have been accused of mental illness, had death threats and even had rape threats against me and my family for stating said opinions on some sites - of course I find it easy to ignore these sort of childish comments and threats but it speaks to how defensive people are to the game. Whenever I call out the fact that this game (to me) is not a 10/10 I often get told that no game is perfect and that if I don't believe this score is justified then I do not know how review scores work, even though the lack of a 10/10 in my eyes is due to the issues I have with gameplay.

The truth is these days every one is a critic but people fight way to hard for their opinions sometimes to the extent its offensive to other people around them.

Flabyo, you say that perhaps your opinion is derived from: "just failing to separate the technical from the overall package here. A flaw that I acknowledge is pretty much a given once you've coded on a few games" and I would say perhaps. As a software engineer and solution architect on a number of retail and commercial CAD solutions I to pick things apart and think how I would approach problems differently frequently, I do this with other pieces of software and videogames with alarming regularity. I think your involvement in games is irrelevant to a certain degree, I think it is more a mindset that comes with a particular type of person (who is often drawn to a particular type of job). I do not agree with you that this game's plot is at a 'straight to DVD' level at all, I actually think it has more nuance and better delivery than some blockbusters do but that's just my opinion in the end however I do agree with you about the way parts of the game have been designed and structured.

Leon, I've seen you defend the game from those who don't like it a few times over the last year - now to be clear I do like the game but I think its flawed however you always go for the "actually I like this about it but you're entitled to your view" approach and are always apologetic about this game (or others) if you feel the other participant in the discussion feels a) alienated or b) outright offended. Somehow you manage to have your opinion but also be a mediator, I like that about you. So, don't feel you were being defensive - it didn't come across that way. All I would say is that when people say the score isn't justified or that they feel the game was overrated it's not always a case of "oh it wasn't perfect, so it wasn't a 10/10" but sometimes that parts of the game felt bland to a certain type of person and deviated from the overall experience.
Todinho

Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by Todinho »

Trust me I'll be the first to criticize something everybody is holding up in a pedestal but when you used Eternal Darkness as an example of something that plays better I was baffled,I mean the game has it's merits but Eternal Darkness doesnt play well even by Eternal Darkness standarts.

And I would really like to know what type of movies you have been seeing to put the narrative here in the straight to DVD section,maybe my taste for stories is just shit but TLoU story puts to shame 80% of the mainstream movies that came out last year for me and I wouldnt put it as the best videogame story ever told either,perhaps in terms of the charaters and dialogue it would be up there.

To prove I have no problems in criticizing this here's a video that echos some of my main problems with the game:

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Re: Our next podcast recording: The Last of Us

Post by chase210 »

*warning this post contains spoilers*


The Last Of Us. One of my favourite games ever. Which is funny, cos the first play through I did, I didn't like it at all. I went to a midnight launch for the game, I had seen every trailer, every review, had posters on my wall, I got it home, and... I was, at first crushingly disappointed. The game, playing on normal difficulty, wasn't what I expected, and I was gutted, until someone on these very forums I think advised me to just crank the difficulty up and try again, which I did, and the game became much better, even better on survival or grounded mode.

My problem with normal mode in the game is simply, it always gives you just enough ammo to shoot your way out of stuff if you need to, enough supplies for shivs and health kits that the game wasn't very challenging or scary. Turning the difficulty up changes the game significantly, which is exactly what I wanted. You go to an encounter, you have maybe 2 handgun bullets, a shot gun round, and a bomb. Theres several infected around, including clickers. You clearly cant shoot your way through. You have to sneak round. Turn your torch off. Clickers might not be able to see you, but they sure can hear you, even you brushing against a bottle on the floor. It makes the game incredibly tense, stealth is absolutely king, and it has an almost perfect mix between Joel going from the hunted to the hunter in a moment. The human enemies are also fantastic enemies, cos it forces you to change up your combat styles, since guns are just threatening as Runners. The only bits I didn't like are the ones where your forced to shoot your way through, such as the final scene in the hospital, or the fight against the bloater, but that is tiny blips on almost perfection.

The story is another highlight, by eschewing the uncharted route of the loveable rogue and the black and white nature of Nathan Drakes tales, the whole story is fray, no one is unflawed, nobody hasn't done bad stuff. The games greatest strength in this sense is by leaving it to our imagination. For example, Sarah is killed by the military guy at the beginning. Joel is broken by the experience, crying over her body. We've seen stuff like this before in games, for example gears of war 2 where Dom has to kill Maria, and gears attempts at portraying that emotion in gameplay are pathetic at best. The Last Of Us solves this problem by simply skipping ahead 20 years. We go from Joel, the man who has lost his daughter, to Joel the smuggler, who is a different person to when we last saw him. He's old, tired. The world he knew is gone. Its heavily implied he's done bad things, Joel and Tess the smugglers are not nice people, but they are survivors, but again, the games greatest strength is by not telling us exactly what they've done. What do we see? Joel, still wearing the watch Sarah gave him, all those years ago, it speaks volumes much more than some crowbarred in emotional conversation. Incidentally, the opening playing as Sarah is still my favourite video game opening of all time.

People in this world are gone, these are not people we know or understand. This is one of the last safe zones, and you can actually hear from the background chatter and hints, such as the late delivery of the rations, what people are saying, that the military men who are executing civilians might even be leaving. We meet Ellie, she's not what you expect. She has no knowledge of the world Tess and Joel once knew, she was born into this, and her ignorance about stuff is charming, she's never played a video game, never been outside the quarantine zone, she's bemused by the fact that Girls used to worry about clothes and hair and boys. The story progresses. Joel, this hard survivor, very gradually opens up with Ellie, the game again using a fast forwarding of time to skip awkward emotional scenes, such as after Henry kills Sam.

Then bam, change, Joel is very badly injured, and suddenly this guy that we thought was almost invisible in the guise of most video game character is seriously injured, and role reversal, Ellie has to save Joel, and she is very capable, not as physically capable as Joel, but more than capable of looking after herself. Then, she viciously kills David, after his attempted rape of her, and this is the moment when we finally see how much Joel has invested in Ellie, more so than anyone we've seen. Which is what makes the ending so great, its again, grey. Joel has regained some of that humanity we haven't seen since before the infection spread, but at what cost? Dooming humanity? Possibly. Brilliant story. Loved it to bits.

The graphics are of course as has been said by everyone and their dog, a standout, its incredible, I remember seeing the first uncharted game, or ratchet and clank tools of destruction on the PS3 7 years ago, and thinking how incredible it looked, look how far we've come. The voice acting is brilliant, its interesting to see Nolan North in such an untypical and minor role, but it works, Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson knock it out the park, the multiplayer is above and beyond what you might expect in such a heavy story based game/

In conclusion to this very long post, I'm struggling to think of criticisms for this game. I love it, I love it to bits, it shows a game doesn't need to sacrifice story for gameplay, or vice versa, it just fits, its almost perfect. Perfect way to send the PS3 off, and even better on a PS4 with a dual shock controller, who'd have thought it.
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Will Marley
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Re: The Last of Us

Post by Will Marley »

Just a massive bump to say I really enjoyed the recent Redux EP covering the TLOU1 remake on the PS5. Great chat, always good to hear more Jay on the nitty gritty of games and my own experience mirrored many of the points you both raised.

I've struggled to finish anything for a couple of years and found my interest in gaming lower than at any point since my early 20s. Maybe I got a bit burned out on gaming over Covid, maybe I'm just a bit jaded with contemporary design tropes. The medium certainly feels creatively stale at the moment, both in AAA and indie.

I also wonder whether I've excessively narrowed my own parameters of 'what I like' to avoid wasting money and time on stuff that does very little for me. It's almost certainly the case that I miss out on stuff I would like beyond my 'comfort zone' but the hit rate for flavour of the month became so very low versus the investment. Whatever the reason, while I'm still very interested in the medium and its developments, there's not much I actually want to play.

I finished this in about four sittings and was gripped throughout. The world, characters and story are still best in class for this kind of thing, in my opinion. The combat is simplistic but still very impactful and satisfying. It's nothing astounding but it's good enough for this kind of game. If I want to play Vanquish, well, I can go and do that. Technically, it's a stunner, the lighting and textures are so impressive and immersive and many of my favourite gameplay memories are just walking round admiring the creativity and execution.

I then listened to the podcast from the start, and read through this thread, and I'm fascinated and quite tickled by the negative responses. There really is something about this game that some people can't bear. Perhaps it's a reactive response to the love-in and media saturation. I certainly felt that way about Hades and Death's Door - two very polished games without a sliver of originality.

Anyway, I really hope that TLOU2 gets a proper PS5 update in kind. I'm looking forward to playing through that one again very soon.
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Re: The Last of Us

Post by Truk_Kurt »

Has anyone been watching the TV Show. I've been quite impressed so far, especially by episode 3 showing the origin of Bill and Frank.
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Re: The Last of Us

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A beautiful piece of TV.
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Re: The Last of Us

Post by markfm007 »

Think I'll wait until the season's over. I prefer watching at my own pace. Great to see it's getting so well reviewed. I'm quite glad they're changing things too. That way each stands on it own, but still gives you a good telling of the story.
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Re: The Last of Us

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I'm loving the show. So much so that I went and spent silly money on the PS5 remake because I want more Last of Us right now. I'm not one to complain about remakes and how they're priced etc. But damn they're charging a lot of money for it. But I was happy to pay it so I guess they've been proved correct. Anyway, it's gorgeous looking and the new character models means there's now a really satisfying visual throughline between both games (Ellie looked weird when going back to the original on PS3 after Part II). It's such a delight having them both installed and sitting side by side and feeling all new and sexy, if that's the right word for such a miserable saga.
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Re: The Last of Us

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Truk_Kurt wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:05 am Has anyone been watching the TV Show. I've been quite impressed so far, especially by episode 3 showing the origin of Bill and Frank.
I love the episode and the weird reaction it's been getting from The Gamers (as Leon brilliantly calls them). Although I think a lot of it isn't coming from actual gamers or fans of the series as anyone who played the first game knows about these characters and their relationship, so it's just the same stupid noise from repressed conservatives who hate the fact that media represents people who aren't just straight white men and jumping on any opportunity for culture war bullshit. Honestly, they should stick to complaining about not being able to fuck M&Ms anymore.

Is it bold to say the TV is the best game adaptation to date? I hope it serves as a blueprint going forward, which shows that you can be about 80% loyal to the original story and only add or change things that serve the plot. Episode 3 is a good example as it uses characters we know but tells their story in a way that would be pointless or frustrating in a game (Kojima take note). Also, the opening to episode 2 felt too real and obviously influenced by recent years, which was brilliant but also chilling.
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Re: The Last of Us

Post by Truk_Kurt »

Seph wrote: February 9th, 2023, 2:07 pm
Truk_Kurt wrote: January 31st, 2023, 9:05 am Has anyone been watching the TV Show. I've been quite impressed so far, especially by episode 3 showing the origin of Bill and Frank.
I love the episode and the weird reaction it's been getting from The Gamers (as Leon brilliantly calls them). Although I think a lot of it isn't coming from actual gamers or fans of the series as anyone who played the first game knows about these characters and their relationship, so it's just the same stupid noise from repressed conservatives who hate the fact that media represents people who aren't just straight white men and jumping on any opportunity for culture war bullshit. Honestly, they should stick to complaining about not being able to fuck M&Ms anymore.

Is it bold to say the TV is the best game adaptation to date? I hope it serves as a blueprint going forward, which shows that you can be about 80% loyal to the original story and only add or change things that serve the plot. Episode 3 is a good example as it uses characters we know but tells their story in a way that would be pointless or frustrating in a game (Kojima take note). Also, the opening to episode 2 felt too real and obviously influenced by recent years, which was brilliant but also chilling.
So far I think you could say it's the best game adaptation so far, although I'm going to wait till the season is over before deciding that myself for sure as I thought episode 4 was a bit average given what had come before. It wouldn't have been out of place in a season of The Walking Dead. That's not to say it was bad by any stretch, just a come down on what has been so far.
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