Shmups

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 23rd, 2019, 9:51 am

hazeredmist wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 8:51 am
Hey man, so I just watched your vid. I enjoyed it! Really makes me want to play this properly soon actually. It just doesn't compute in my head how this game is legitimately free. The bullet patterns on that final boss are insane.

Very impressive. One thing I note watching this, you (well, your ship) look SO calm to me. Bullets flying all over the place and you're just meandering around with everything under control. No stress. Me? When I play these games I am jerking all over the place like a fish trying to escape from a bucket. I guess that's what comes with learning and practicing your routes!

What are you playing with by the way? A stick?
Thanks for checking it out! Means a lot. :)

I think I'm done with this game for the time being, but I'd love to see you give it a proper whack. The default settings are extremely forgiving, so please don't be too intimidated by some of the patterns you saw.

The calmness comes from weeks of practice, really. I think this goes back to the distinction between methodical and intuitive playstyles we talked about the other day, with Stan & I being in one camp and you & clippa in the other. I don't have the greatest dexterity and my input can be pretty coarse at times, so whatever gaming "achievements" I have can usually be attributed to a lot of patience and discipline instead!

You simply can't allow the game to get inside your head and intimidate you into submission. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Ben usually says something very similar and his advice has had a very positive influence on me, btw.

And no, I'm actually playing with the latest advancement in gaming peripheral technology with the most precise analogue sticks known to man, a state of the art (busted) DualShock 4™ from Sony Interactive Entertainment. Come to think of it, this probably wasn't a very fair competition to begin with if poor clippa is still stuck operating his heavy-duty farming equipment! :P

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 23rd, 2019, 10:25 am

Gotcha. All good to note.

So with your PS4 pad, are you using the d-pad or analogue? Always interested to hear how others play, there is so much variation. Have you tried a stick and just prefer pad then?

I'm super interested in what sticks people use, actually. I think Clippa and Stan mainly play with them? Not sure about Michiel. Alex I presume is on joycons. I myself have the most fun using a stick, but I'm not convinced I play the best with it, I need to keep putting time into it.

@Everyone - Post your shmup setup!!!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 23rd, 2019, 10:36 am

I use the analogue stick exclusively. Playing a shmup on a d-pad is a very uncomfortable affair, even if it technically amounts to an even quicker input. Tried, can't do it.

My experiences with fighting games have been extremely limited and I don't think I've ever even had the opportunity to get my hands on an arcade stick, actually. Let alone get used to one. Maybe I will someday but I don't exactly fancy buying an unproven piece of kit in the three-figure price range, especially with my limited storage space. I'm afraid of choosing the wrong one or not being able to transition properly and quite frankly, controller works just fine for me at the moment.

I think Michiel is a fellow pad player, but I could be wrong. :)

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Re: Shmups

Post by Chopper » August 23rd, 2019, 10:54 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 10:36 am
I use the analogue stick exclusively.
Wow, do you have the stick shortened or anything? I was using it to play the pool mini-game in Rebel Galaxy Outlaw yesterday and was getting frustrated over the fine control on that. I guess it's a calibration thing with shmups? (Not to resurrect all the InputIO/fx whatever stuff that you guys very enlighteningly talked about before in this thread).

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 23rd, 2019, 11:06 am

Chopper wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 10:54 am
Wow, do you have the stick shortened or anything? I was using it to play the pool mini-game in Rebel Galaxy Outlaw yesterday and was getting frustrated over the fine control on that. I guess it's a calibration thing with shmups? (Not to resurrect all the InputIO/fx whatever stuff that you guys very enlighteningly talked about before in this thread).
No, I haven't custom-tuned my stick or anything of the sort! :lol:

In most classic shmups (like BWRP, for example), the input is digital 8-way only, so the only difference between using the d-pad and the stick is that the latter allows for a smoother transition between the directions at the cost of a slight delay. And because it doesn't measure any analogue variable, stick drift isn't really a factor.

I think the frustration you're talking about probably comes from a combination of the game being programmed around analogue input and the deadzone being too small for its own good, which leads to a lot of over-correction. Stick drift might come into play as well if the controller is a bit older.

Dunno if I'm explaining this properly, but it makes sense in my head I promise!

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 23rd, 2019, 11:17 am

I'm now stick 99%. It did take a little getting used to but I think I probably picked it up quite quickly (not a brag, just an observation based on what I'd heard). I did have a Switch stick before but got rid of it because I definitely played worse and didn't give it or myself a chance to adapt. Had I stuck with it, who knows? Either way, I am absolutely in love with my current stick and see no reason whatsoever to change.

Image

Apologies for sharing a previous photo, let's call it paternal pride. Seimitsu LS-32 stick feels absolutely perfect for me and Sanwa 'silent' buttons which are a tiny tiny bit squidgy compared to the clickier arcade buttons but they're perfectly sensitive. I feel truly at one with this stick, my own flesh and blood, in the flow of the great Tao.

No, there is no punchline.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 23rd, 2019, 11:22 am

:mrgreen:

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hazeredmist
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Re: Shmups

Post by hazeredmist » August 23rd, 2019, 11:36 am

That looks awesome.

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clippa
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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 24th, 2019, 1:51 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 9:51 am
Come to think of it, this probably wasn't a very fair competition to begin with if poor clippa is still stuck operating his heavy-duty farming equipment! :P
Sounds like as good an excuse as any to me!
I don't know how people can microtap that well on an analogue stick. Very impressive watching you do that, alone.
If I ever find myself "all thumbs" I'll make sure it isn't the slow, innacurate monkey kind we all know and love and that I've got two handfulls of your super evolved space thumbs from the future. Real Planet of the Absolute Bastards stuff.
"My scores! You blew them up! Damn you all to hell!"

When I was trying to beat your score last week I was thinking "he won't be taking as many risks as me, no way he's this sexy. He won't be waiting until the screen is full of bullets before he pops that particular boss part, I've got some tricks up my sleeve yet. He won't be risking getting up this close and scooping up all of these points. Hehehehe, just you wait, I just need to have that lucky run where I hold my nerve and everything falls into place and I don't get hit or panic bomb too often".

Watching that totally knocked the wind out of my sails. You're doing everything right! Utterly sickening.

It's becoming a thing now, I had to just chivalrously accept defeat with the ghost blade caravan stage, but I felt like I had a better excuse that time round.
It pains me to say it, but you beat me. Again.

This is officially the last time I ever underestimate you, owly :lol:

Prick only started playing like a fucking year ago or something. It's embarrassing. Have you ever considered dabbling in cancer research? Just turning up to a lab one day and curing some of the lesser, easy ones?

I tried playing a fighter with a stick a few times but it wasn't happening.
I always played with a ps1 pad on my knee, playing it like a piano.
I was feared far and wide for my Nina expertise. Diving and rolling around like a crazy giraffe, popping bollocks with my stiletto heels.
I'd sometimes break out that ridiculously telegraphed "hunting swan" move, you time that sucker right, wait until you're in a pricks head, get them panicking, lights out, meatball! Maximum delicious projectile salty tears of rage.

I was the only cunt who could roll a half decent joint so they knew not to break my fingers, but I could often tell they were all thinking about it.

Stanshall, I saw you on the shmups reddit this morning, I tried to upvote your esp ra de comment "It's a genuine mistake, he's good people! It's probably because I haven't been all sour grapes about it, he got confused!" but they were already circling your wagon, it was a lost cause. It could be misconstrued as baiting the master racists and reddit was thoroughly displeased.

I was chuckling at your "go play mars matrix" comment but that got downvoted back to one as soon as I upped it.
What do these people want?
I much prefer forums like these where our ill informed conjecture and obscure references are allowed to shine unhindered.
Much prefer forums where threads are like conversations rather than just a list of the most endorsed comments. Who's endorsing the endorsers?

I wonder what this thread would look like if it was structured like a reddit thread. Doesn't bear thinking about. I dread to think how many pages deep we'd get before my name turned up :lol:

First couple of posts would be owly's replays :shudder:

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Chopper
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Re: Shmups

Post by Chopper » August 24th, 2019, 8:30 am

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:06 am
I think the frustration you're talking about probably comes from a combination of the game being programmed around analogue input and the deadzone being too small for its own good, which leads to a lot of over-correction. Stick drift might come into play as well if the controller is a bit older.
Thanks, it makes sense and I think it's limited to that one game (or at least is the most pronounced I've seen the issue - you feel like you're pushing the stick forever in minute increments and nothing happening, and then a big move all of a sudden).

Congrats on the mahoosive score on BWRP btw! I second Clippa's call for a move into medical science ;)

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 24th, 2019, 8:32 am

clippa wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 1:51 am
Prick only started playing like a fucking year ago or something. It's embarrassing.
I still don't think of myself as a dedicated shmup player, to be fair. When you joined the community back in March, I was busy playing DMC5 and being a very happy bird in the process. None of this would have happened if you hadn't started talking all that guano and trying to goad everyone into a contest! :lol:

But thanks for the competition. It was fun! Gave me a good reason to learn the game properly and it has now become one of my favorite shmups ever.

Also, I've been a pad player my whole life. I detest mouse & keyboard and I think that most handhelds suffer from massive ergonomics problems and are therefore completely ill-suited for all sorts of action games that require fast and precise input. It's not ideal for certain genres, but as a whole, a traditional dual-analogue controller is still the best input method overall in my opinion.

And yeah, I also prefer this forum format to the one on reddit. To be honest, I can barely read reddit. I never know how to follow the conversations with all the lines and sub-threads and whatnot. Plus the whole voting system which is just idiotic.

NB: I like this new polite and chivalrous clippa a lot more than the old drunken troll clippa, for the record. :D

Chopper wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 8:30 am
Congrats on the mahoosive score on BWRP btw!
Thank you my friend! :heart:

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 24th, 2019, 10:48 am

Cheers, clips. I rarely post on the shmups subreddit but I don't care about downvotes either way. I'd sooner people downvote misleading info than just opinions they disagree with, which is one of the crud aspects of reddit. Generally I find it pretty decent though, if I'm honest. I completely avoid all of the big subs and any politics or whatever.

KSub, you suggested us all trying out a game together and having a little friendly competition. I'm definitely up for that but I'm home and away for the next couple of weeks on various trips and work stuff. I have been giving it some thought, though. Espgaluda 2 BL is one I'd love to learn to play properly and I have some memory that you own that, or had plans to do so. Obviously, though, let's just play something you (and hopefully a few others) have got. If I'm honest, I am still very keen to learn DOJ Stage 2 so I'll be working on that in the background and refining Stage 1.

In fact, I'll suggest we go for something that's multiformat and very available to hopefully get Haze and Alex and maybe a few more on board. It might not be the best choice because I've played a good twenty hours already and I think clippa has 1CC'd it but Danmaku Unlimited 3 is the kind of thing I'm thinking about. Or, what about Vasara? It's cheap, available on everything, good game and Michiel has been playing it, so he might be interested, as well. It's also (presumably) pretty new to all of us and is more about macro dodging and shooting than tap dodging through bullet curtains. I think Leon was going to pick it up, too.

Or PSYVARIAR DELTA!!!

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 24th, 2019, 11:21 am

Stanshall wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 10:48 am
If I'm honest, I am still very keen to learn DOJ Stage 2 so I'll be working on that in the background and refining Stage 1.
Perfectly fair. Personally, I find it really difficult to focus on several shmups at the same time so I'm more than willing to wait until you're done with DOJ. No stress, and there's more than enough for me to play in the meantime. :)

If you want to have a 1-on-1 afterwards, I'd love to get into Espgaluda 2 as well. I only dabbled with it when I first got it and haven't gone back to it since. I think that'd be a perfect choice, alongside Ketsui Deathtiny perhaps?

Stanshall wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 10:48 am
In fact, I'll suggest we go for something that's multiformat and very available to hopefully get Haze and Alex and maybe a few more on board.
Great idea! My thoughts on the games that come to mind:

Psyvariar Delta still hasn't been released on EU PS4, so I would have to pass on that one until I get a Switch, because it doesn't look like my laptop can run it, unfortunately.

I bought Danmaku Unlimited 3 in the Steam sale, although it does suffer from some very noticeable slowdown on my end. "Only" 30fps dips so nothing game-breaking, but the Switch version would probably be best for me if I intend to play it seriously.

I haven't bought VASARA Collection yet but it's cheap enough that I would be perfectly willing to grab it on PS4 if everyone else decides to play that one.

I can't remember if you have Bullet Soul Infinite Burst on your JPN Xbox 360 or not, sorry. If you do, it might be an interesting choice considering it's also on Steam.


Honestly, the more I think of this, the more I believe that DoDonPachi Resurrection might be the perfect choice. Most of us already own it one way or another. It's an absolutely brilliant game and Haze already loves it. Your 360 version is fundamentally the same as the Steam version as long as we don't pick Black Label Arrange. Plus I'd be able to stick with my preferred DS4, so I would vote for that one if you're not too sick of DDP by then. :)

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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 24th, 2019, 12:20 pm

That's a good call. I only didn't suggest it because I know clippa's done a few high score comps on DFK in the past so I didn't want to get trounced! That's honestly what I was thinking. I do think it's a good idea though and because most of the time I spent with it was in Arrange Mode (prob around five hours), it'll be perfectly fresh.

In fact, for whatever reason I have two copies of Dodonpachi Resurrection on the 360 so if anyone wants one to join in, I'll happily stick it in the post. Likewise, Deathsmiles and Akai Katana. Boring story as to why but anyway, they're available if anyone wants them.

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KSubzero1000
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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 24th, 2019, 12:22 pm

Cool!

Out of curiosity, what's your status on Ketsui at the moment? And do you have Bullet Soul or not?

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 24th, 2019, 1:29 pm

Rice paper chains in the bullet rain? Again?

I'm assuming everyone has mame on something or other?
Might be the best bet if we want to involve everyone.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 24th, 2019, 2:16 pm

I gave Danmaku Unlimited 3 another go.

Good news: I turned off V-Sync, which appears to have fixed most of my framerate problems, which is great.

Bad news: As far as I can tell, the game doesn't have any built-in replay save feature. Which would take a lot of the enjoyment out of the competition, I think...

clippa wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 1:29 pm
I'm assuming everyone has mame on something or other?
Might be the best bet if we want to involve everyone.
I don't. Why would it be best? I don't exactly fancy installing it, especially when I already have so many games at my disposal.

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Re: Shmups

Post by clippa » August 24th, 2019, 2:28 pm

Danmaku 3 got nerfed when it came to the switch and the changes weren't patched into the pc version so it wouldn't be a fair competition anyhow.
KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 2:16 pm
I don't. Why would it be best?
Whey, we wouldn't have to worry about a game being available on lots of different platforms or it being hard to source or costing a packet.

I was looking at the list of shmups on the switch but then I thought, well even this small pool is no good since not everyone on there owns a switch. It'd have to be a game that's pretty much available on every platform and relatively new, we're gonna have 3 games to pick from or something and they're all gonna be crap.

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Re: Shmups

Post by KSubzero1000 » August 24th, 2019, 2:50 pm

clippa wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 2:28 pm
It'd have to be a game that's pretty much available on every platform and relatively new, we're gonna have 3 games to pick from or something and they're all gonna be crap.
I think we would all have access to DDPR and BSIB, for example.

Not what I would call "crap".

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Stanshall
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Re: Shmups

Post by Stanshall » August 24th, 2019, 5:39 pm

KSubzero1000 wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 2:50 pm
clippa wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 2:28 pm
It'd have to be a game that's pretty much available on every platform and relatively new, we're gonna have 3 games to pick from or something and they're all gonna be crap.
I think we would all have access to DDPR and BSIB, for example.

Not what I would call "crap".
Yeah, I've got both of them. Would be up for either.

I could MAME through the Wii so also doable. Original Dodonpachi? ;)

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